Small arms and Light Weapons

When picking a gun, what would your primary consideration be?


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Rchauhan

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FalconSlayers

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Production of rifles in Amethis will start in 2024-25 and will take 10 years to fully complete the deliveries. What about carbines then?
 

FalconSlayers

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can you attach the source for 10yrs timeline please
Under this deal, valued at over Rs 5000 Crores, the newly established “Indo-Russia Rifles Private Ltd”, a joint venture between the OFB- Rosoboronexport and Kalashnikov, will manufacture over 6 lakh AK- 203 Assault rifles over the next 10 years, with the transfer of technology to India.
Written by Huma Siddiqui
January 5, 2022 3:06:10 pm


 

MisraZ

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///AK-203 Assault rifle is of 7.62mm calibre, with 39 calibre length barrel, i: e to say that the length of its barrel is 39 times the calibre – 7.62 X 39 mm. This is how the barrels, of guns and rifles, are described and generally, all other factors being the same, the longer the barrel, the higher is the muzzle velocity.///

What? 39 is supposed to be case length right? 🙄. What does that have to do w/ barrel length
 

SwordOfDarkness

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///AK-203 Assault rifle is of 7.62mm calibre, with 39 calibre length barrel, i: e to say that the length of its barrel is 39 times the calibre – 7.62 X 39 mm. This is how the barrels, of guns and rifles, are described and generally, all other factors being the same, the longer the barrel, the higher is the muzzle velocity.///

What? 39 is supposed to be case length right? 🙄. What does that have to do w/ barrel length
Nothing, whoever wrote that was on Afghan weed.

762 is the bullet dia, 39 is case length.
 

Whitecollar

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Production of rifles in Amethis will start in 2024-25 and will take 10 years to fully complete the deliveries. What about carbines then?
Order will have to be given to private vendor under Make in India. For that, IA will have to atleast consider SSS defence or Astr defence as one of the RFQ recepients. Otherwise as per OFB's timeline, 2034-35 should look good.
 

Aditya Ballal

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Order will have to be given to private vendor under Make in India. For that, IA will have to atleast consider SSS defence or Astr defence as one of the RFQ recepients. Otherwise as per OFB's timeline, 2034-35 should look good.
Astr Defence isn’t really a proper manufacturer per se, it’s just the creation of an engineering student from Karnataka’s college project where he went to OFB to make the gun for him as per his design and is looking for investors/partners.
1643103470087.png

So basically such a contract would have to go to someone who already has a manufacturing facility with the tooling and manpower in place, so it has to be someone like SSS, PLR, Bharat Forge, Tata etc.
 
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Wasn't there a news last year that IAF has placed emergency order of AK-103 rifles?


Is the present delivery of 70k AK-203 is separate from previous order of 70k AK-103 rifles? Or both referes to the same deal, and media has mixed up?
 

FalconSlayers

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Wasn't there a news last year that IAF has placed emergency order of AK-103 rifles?


Is the present delivery of 70k AK-203 is separate from previous order of 70k AK-103 rifles? Or both referes to the same deal, and media has mixed up?
Media fked up, these are for IAF. My mind speaks that we may see them during republic day.
 

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Media fked up, these are for IAF. My mind speaks that we may see them during republic day.
Thats what I thought. These present deliveries are most likely the vanilla AK-103s ordered by IAF in August/September last year under emergency contract.

The AK-203 deal was finalized only in first week of December 2021. Even for a arms giant like Kalashnikov concern, manufacturing, quality testing and exporting 70k rifles within 1.5 months is a bit of a strech. Even Sig Sauer took 1.5 years to deliver those first batch of 72k Sig-716 rifles.
 

FalconSlayers

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Thats what I thought. These present deliveries are most likely the vanilla AK-103s ordered by IAF in August/September last year under emergency contract.

The AK-203 deal was finalized only in first wekk of December 2021. Even for a arms giant like Kalashnikov concern, manufacturing, quality testing and exporting 70k rifles within 1.5 months is a bit of a strech. Even Sig Sauer took 1.5 years to deliver those first batch of 72k Sig-716 rifles.
Also not all 70k AK-103 are delivered, its the first batch of them. I guess 750k AK-203 were for all 3 services, but IAF decided to purchase them off the shelf, Navy might do it as well to replace INSAS, and Indian Army will go ahead with 5 lakh AK-203.
 

[email protected]

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That is the current plan.
Total numbers to be manufactured: 6.5 lac/
Probable distribution, considering size:

IAF: 1 lac
IN: 50K
IA: 5 lac.

Now I hope IA reserves this 5L AK-203 rifles for support troops, CI troops (RR and AR) and some in carbine role. Becasuse, with its 300 m effective range, AK-203 is not suitable for standard Infantry assault rifle. We are looking at minimum 500-600 m effective range for that role, which can only be fullfilled by a 7.62*51 mm assault rifles (since Army has already decided to dump the 5.56*45 mm caliber for assault rifle role). I feel similar deal should be signed with Sig-Sauer to set-up a plant in India or form a JV with an Indian company like Bharatforge, PLR or SSSD. Either that, or a 7.62*51mm version of MCIWS manufactured by private sector.
 

FalconSlayers

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That is the current plan.
Total numbers to be manufactured: 6.5 lac/
Probable distribution, considering size:

IAF: 1 lac
IN: 50K
IA: 5 lac.

Now I hope IA reserves this 5L AK-203 rifles for support troops, CI troops (RR and AR) and some in carbine role. Becasuse, with its 300 m effective range, AK-203 is not suitable for standard Infantry assault rifle. We are looking at minimum 500-600 m effective range for that role, which can only be fullfilled by a 7.62*51 mm assault rifles (since Army has already decided to dump the 5.56*45 mm caliber for assault rifle role). I feel similar deal should be signed with Sig-Sauer to set-up a plant in India or form a JV with an Indian company like Bharatforge, PLR or SSSD. Either that, or a 7.62*51mm version of MCIWS manufactured by private sector.
All small arms have an effective range of 100m with iron sights, beyond that you can’t aim easily during a firefight. Yes during normal practice shooting when you aren’t receiving fire, you can fire it on your practice target from 500m away but in real life the target won’t remain stationary while receiving fire. 100m is the golden range and 300m the silver range while 500m is the bronze range for iron sight shooting imo. For shooting at high ranges effectively you need good magnified optics, again missing with us.
 

SGOperative

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That is the current plan.
Total numbers to be manufactured: 6.5 lac/
Probable distribution, considering size:

IAF: 1 lac
IN: 50K
IA: 5 lac.

Now I hope IA reserves this 5L AK-203 rifles for support troops, CI troops (RR and AR) and some in carbine role. Becasuse, with its 300 m effective range, AK-203 is not suitable for standard Infantry assault rifle. We are looking at minimum 500-600 m effective range for that role, which can only be fullfilled by a 7.62*51 mm assault rifles (since Army has already decided to dump the 5.56*45 mm caliber for assault rifle role). I feel similar deal should be signed with Sig-Sauer to set-up a plant in India or form a JV with an Indian company like Bharatforge, PLR or SSSD. Either that, or a 7.62*51mm version of MCIWS manufactured by private sector.
The combat range is not that big of a issue as people make it to be. The Range is within our regular comabat radius for regular infantry rest who will be shooting from long distance they will be using Sigs.
 

Lonewarrior

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///AK-203 Assault rifle is of 7.62mm calibre, with 39 calibre length barrel, i: e to say that the length of its barrel is 39 times the calibre – 7.62 X 39 mm. This is how the barrels, of guns and rifles, are described and generally, all other factors being the same, the longer the barrel, the higher is the muzzle velocity.///

What? 39 is supposed to be case length right? 🙄. What does that have to do w/ barrel length
Poor fella probably got confused between the "caliber" of assault rifle and artillery.
This X times the diameter of bore is an artillery thing.
 

Angel of War

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That is the current plan.
Total numbers to be manufactured: 6.5 lac/
Probable distribution, considering size:

IAF: 1 lac
IN: 50K
IA: 5 lac.

Now I hope IA reserves this 5L AK-203 rifles for support troops, CI troops (RR and AR) and some in carbine role. Becasuse, with its 300 m effective range, AK-203 is not suitable for standard Infantry assault rifle. We are looking at minimum 500-600 m effective range for that role, which can only be fullfilled by a 7.62*51 mm assault rifles (since Army has already decided to dump the 5.56*45 mm caliber for assault rifle role). I feel similar deal should be signed with Sig-Sauer to set-up a plant in India or form a JV with an Indian company like Bharatforge, PLR or SSSD. Either that, or a 7.62*51mm version of MCIWS manufactured by private sector.
does your figure include 70,000 AK 203s ordered by the army directly from russia and the 70,000 AK103s ordered by the air force ?
 

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