Small arms and Light Weapons

[John]

I would disagree a bit here.

One of the biggest advantages of the 5.56 round is light weight, and hence less lodout for the trooper. The paramilitary jawan does not have a heavy load out problem that the army jawan does, as most of their ops would be close to some base.

There is supposedly another advantage - injuring (instead of killing) an enemy may take out of commission not only him but his co-combatants who would need to support him. I don't know how relevant that is for paramilitary operations

If a 6.8 round is adopted, I cannot think of a reason for keeping the 5.56 for the paramilitary, unloess it is a cost factor

Well Infantry troops need serious stopping power which is where the 5.56 is useless. 5.56mm is ideal for policing activities, but for counter insurgency, fighting enemy like Pak or China we need heavy stopping power. This is 6.8 mm+ is better or even the 7.26. We have recently floated RFPs to Belgian, US, German and Russian manufacturers for Assualt rifles and this is where US made weapons like;Barrett 468, Bushmaster ACR, LWRC M-6 will most likely win. Except for BSF, CISF, ITBP, the 5.56 mm round is ideal for Homeguard, State armed police, CRPF, Railway protection force, etc.

our 5.56*30 rounds are even less lethal than the standard NATO 5.56mm round.

 

[John]

YouTube - ACR -Over the Beach Test

Bushmaster ACR, 5.56mm/7.26mm capable, we should get this.

 

[John]

The Bushmaster ACR rifle will be offered to military customers in 5.56mm NATO, 6.8mm Remington SPC, and 6.5 Grendel with the same lower reciever and the user just having to switch out the barrel, bolt face, and magazine to change calibers.The Bushmaster ACR's modular construction even allows the user to fire the 7.62x39mm round with an alternate barrel.

 

[Antimony]

Well Infantry troops need serious stopping power which is where the 5.56 is useless. 5.56mm is ideal for policing activities, but for counter insurgency, fighting enemy like Pak or China we need heavy stopping power. This is 6.8 mm+ is better or even the 7.26. We have recently floated RFPs to Belgian, US, German and Russian manufacturers for Assualt rifles and this is where US made weapons like;Barrett 468, Bushmaster ACR, LWRC M-6 will most likely win. Except for BSF, CISF, ITBP, the 5.56 mm round is ideal for Homeguard, State armed police, CRPF, Railway protection force, etc.

What is 7.26? Haven't heard of that one.

What is your logic for employing the 5.56 in policing purposes? What kind of applications are we talking here? Close Range engagements? Urban COIN? I agree that the current choices of .303 rifles and .38 special revolvers are useless, but would like to understand your reasoning

our 5.56*30 rounds are even less lethal than the standard NATO 5.56mm round.

What?

 

[sandeepdg]

hey Guys, this is the new baby from the INSAS stable.......

The INSAS Carbine (MSMC) - modern submachine gun carbine

It is still under development by DRDO and the OFB.... hoping it will be available to the armed forces in a year or two....

 

[StealthSniper]

hey Guys, this is the new baby from the INSAS stable.......

The INSAS Carbine (MSMC) - modern submachine gun carbine

Wow, never seen this gun before. Looks good if it really is a INSAS.

 

[tarunraju]

Isn't really an assault rifle, but wouldn't you just love to play this? I would.

 

[K Factor]

hey Guys, this is the new baby from the INSAS stable.......

The INSAS Carbine (MSMC) - modern submachine gun carbine

It is still under development by DRDO and the OFB.... hoping it will be available to the armed forces in a year or two....

Looks like a reverse-engineered or license built or modified Uzi to me !

Uzi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[sandeepdg]

Can't deny that fact, Kommunist..... it sure as hell looks like modified Uzi.... but still, i think it better than the carbines the armed forces currently use which are of WW 2 era.....

 

[sayareakd]

hey Guys, this is the new baby from the INSAS stable.......

The INSAS Carbine (MSMC) - modern submachine gun carbine

It is still under development by DRDO and the OFB.... hoping it will be available to the armed forces in a year or two....

Development is complete but IA dont want this they have chosen Israeli gun instead. Last year i even checked the real MSMC it is light weight.

Check out the picture of MSMC taken by me and scan of DRDO brousher.

 

[Rahul Singh]

How stupid is this on part of IA. They did accepted TAVOR with numerous glitches but when it came to 'Made by DRDO', they raised their both hands up. IMO IA needs a mentality modernization before equipment modernization.

 

[ppgj]

How stupid is this on part of IA. They did accepted TAVOR with numerous glitches but when it came to 'Made by DRDO', they raised their both hands up. IMO IA needs a mentality modernization before equipment modernization.

rahul it is the same with ARJUN tank.

 

[wild goose]

IMHO, the DRDO should concentrate on the paramilitay forces.

Forces like the RPF should go for this, rather than carry the bulky AKs.
Also the State Polices can also be a potential customer if the DRDO plans for some aggressive marketing.

So, even without the IA, DRDO can script a success story for the MSMC.

 

[sandeepdg]

Well, as the Army is interested in Tavor...... i think the INSAS Carbine can be put to a better use by the paramilitary organizations and the special wings of state police forces..... especially those involved in counter-insurgency ops. like the BSF, CRPF, Greyhounds etc.

I don't blame the Army if they are going in for the Tavor..... it's a great gun......now that most of its glitches have been sorted out..

But still, it is true that our armed forces do have lot of prejudices against the DRDO and give them a step brotherly treatment.....

 

[bhramos]

i dont know about forces but our Greyhounds in AP choosed AK-47 over the INSAS already rejected INSAS. They are using AK-47 variant A-7 Made in India varriant which is also rejected by IA.

 

[Rahul Singh]

I don't blame the Army if they are going in for the Tavor..... it's a great gun......now that most of its glitches have been sorted out..

I fear it's not true. IA have already floated RFP for procurement of new carbines/CQB riffles. I think this decision in itself speaks about TAVOR's status in IA.

i dont know about forces but our Greyhounds in AP choosed AK-47 over the INSAS already rejected INSAS. They are using AK-47 variant A-7 Made in India varriant which is also rejected by IA.

Word 'rejected' is not suitable. IMO selection of A-7/AK-47 is based on the conclusion that 7.62mm cartridges on high burst fully automatic assault riffle makes best choice for anti-insurgency operations.

rahul it is the same with ARJUN tank.

IA is stuck with mentality of operating cheap less protected light weight MBT's(so-called). I don't think, IA is not aware of changes in armored battle arena. In the age of shoulder fired tank-busters(both guided and unguided) a less protected MBT like T-90 is like a duck against a hunter having AK-47, one shot and all in hell. This situation will become even worst in streets where a MBT is expected to provide protection in addition to firepower. IMO in streets a MBT like T-90 will act like a sealed coffin ready to transport tankers to almighty.

God save IA.

 

[wild goose]

i dont know about forces but our Greyhounds in AP choosed AK-47 over the INSAS already rejected INSAS. They are using AK-47 variant A-7 Made in India varriant which is also rejected by IA.

Mate,

The greyhounds operates like guerrillas, so SMG may not the right choice obviously. But for forces like RPF,CISF or DSC whose operational areas will be usualy confined spaces can go for an option like MSMC.

I don't see IA opting for MSMC in my wildest dreams. It doesn't seem to be a break through both technically or design wise. So with a bag full of cash and experience from operating the likes of TAR21,M4,AK103 etc one cannot blame the IA if they wish for Magpul Masada or FN SCAR or AN 94.

Regards,

 

[Goodperson]

How stupid is this on part of IA. They did accepted TAVOR with numerous glitches but when it came to 'Made by DRDO', they raised their both hands up. IMO IA needs a mentality modernization before equipment modernization.

Insas and Tavor are do different weapons chosen for different purposes. Tavor is a good weapon for close range combat, as it is short. This enables better hold and movement. But Indian army has ordered less than 10,000 which means its only for special forces. This number is not enough to arm even a division of Army. INSAS/AK47 is a cheaper solution. but I do say that INSAS is without problems

Rejection of Indigenous Weapons by Armed Forces
Monday, December 03, 2007

LOK SABHA
The Army has reported certain deficiencies in some batches of 5.56 mm INSAS Rifle, 5.56 mm Light Machine Gun (LMG). Small Arms Ammunitions, Tank Ammunitions and Delay Igniter. The Armed Forces have segregated the affected quantity of arms and ammunitions for investigation/repair/modification.
Sl No.

Item

Reasons
1.

5.56 mm INSAS Rifle

Problem of Oil Spray noticed. Periodical maintenance instructions have been amended and the design has been modified.
2.

5.56 mm INSAS Light Machine Gun

Accelerated User cum Reliability Trial was conducted as an exercise to improve the quality. As on outcome certain modifications in design have been considered. These are being validated for incorporation.
3.

125 mm High Explosive Ammunition

Burning Particles found during firing, due to use of Triple Base Propellant. Repair of segregated ammunition has been started and likely to be completed in next year.
4.

125 mm High Explosive Anti-Tank Ammunition
5.

125 MM Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot

Quantity manufactured as per hybrid design approved by competent authority is being replaced and converted to original design to address the problem of burning particles found during firing. The repair is likely to be completed within 2007-08.
6.

Igniter 4 Sec. Delay

This igniter, which is used for hand and rifle grenades, was found to have problems during storage at the depots. Design Improvement has been carried out and a new variety has been offered to the Army for trial evaluation.
7.

Small Arms Cartridge 7.62 mm

Some ammunition became rusted during storage. The segregated ammunition has been repaired.
8.

Small Arms Cartridge 5.56 mm

A small quantity of this ammunition segregated due to material design defects has been repaired.
9.

Coat Combat ICK

A small quantity reported defective due to fitment problem is being replaced.
This information was given by the Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh in a written reply to Shri Ananth Kumar in Lok Sabha today.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Insas and Tavor are do different weapons chosen for different purposes. Tavor is a good weapon for close range combat, as it is short. This enables better hold and movement. But Indian army has ordered less than 10,000 which means its only for special forces. This number is not enough to arm even a division of Army. INSAS/AK47 is a cheaper solution. but I do say that INSAS is without problems

I know what is the difference between INSAS 5.56 mm assault riffle and TAR-21 TAVOR. My question was in principle and that was. If IA can accept one system that too for special forces with glitches then why it can't accept other.

 

[Goodperson]

I know what is the difference between INSAS 5.56 mm assault riffle and TAR-21 TAVOR. My question was in principle and that was. If IA can accept one system that too for special forces with glitches then why it can't accept other.

I hate this question can you get the list of Glitches of Tavor ?

About INSAS


Saddled with Insas, Army wants new AK-47s

Shishir Arya, TNN 7 September 2009, 12:53am IST

NAGPUR: The indigenous 5.56x45mm Insas (Indian National Small Arms System) rifle has been the standard assault weapon for the Indian Army since the late 1990s. However, the jawans using it in counter-insurgency operations find it ineffective.

As part of the new Army doctrine, the gun is meant to incapacitate the enemy, rather than kill. Insas has a smaller calibre, which means it has less power. This is because — and it’s the official view — injuring an enemy can lead to enemy soldiers getting engaged in tending the wounded, thus yielding a tactical battlefield advantage.

The technocrats who interacted with soldiers in the forward areas were told that this theory does not work with terrorists who, apart from attacking in small numbers, are never bothered about evacuating their injured. Hence, the soldiers say, they want to shoot to kill, rather than maim.

The soldiers also spoke about practical difficulties in using Insas. It’s accurate but not as rugged as the AK-47 used by terrorists, they say. Also, its sling often snaps while firing, making it fall during manoeuvres. The sling also obstructs the rifle’s sight. But most of all, the size of the sling never took into account the bullet proof jacket worn by jawans. As a result, it falls short and is uncomfortable to hold. This hampers quick reaction. Insas also does not have a rapid fire feature; it shoots only three rounds in a single burst.

‘‘The barrel overheats with continuous firing. The magazine cracks even on falling, which is common during action. Oil spillage while firing is also major trouble,’’ said a source quoting soldiers. ‘‘Zeroing (adjusting the sight for aim) has to be done each time the rifle is opened to clean or for any other reason. Lack of proper zeroing hampers the working of night vision device,’’ said the same source.

The total additional weight — around 40 kg with bulletproof jacket and signalling equipment — that a soldier carries is also a matter of concern, as is the colour of the rifle: they want it in brown which offers better camouflaging. On the positive side, Insas’s transparent magazine helps soldiers keep a count of bullets.

Former director general of infantry, Lt General Shanker Prasad, said Insas is antiquated and the Infantry needs a modern rifle. The Army has repeatedly asked for new assault weapons, but nothing has moved. It’s learnt that forces are now expecting new indigenously developed AK-47 rifle said to be an improvement on the original.