Small arms and Light Weapons

[sayareakd]

As far as INSAS is concern it needs modification if you want to have red dot sight to be used along the iron sight. If you put red dot sight with the existing rail, then you wont be able to use the iron sight. as the rail will come in between.

I am saying this because if we can have red dot sight, with iron sight then it would cut cost of re training the soldier as they are trained with iron sight, (iron sight with red sight) wont require additional training and soldiers will be happy too.

this is what i am saying for INSAS

BTW if some one has idea how this can be done on INSAS, please do contact me i have good business plan for the same.

 

[Rahul Singh]

INSAS already has Picatinny Rails for scope mounting.

Can you post one pic. As far as i know INSAS only sports attachment specific rail that too only for mounting scopes with customised attachment.

 

[Patriot]

DRDO to develop two new rifles for Indian Army

NEW DELHI (PTI): In three years from now, army soldiers
will have two new modern, indigenous rifles at their disposal instead of the standard INSAS rifle, allowing them to operate effectively in urban or jungle environment.

The DRDO is working on a Future-INSAS rifle to go along with the under-development future infantry soldier project that the Indian defence establishments are currently working on, DRDO's Chief Controller of Research and Development (Armament and Combat Engineering) S Sunderesh said here Wednesday.

It is also working on a new single-hand operated carbine, he said.

INSAS stands for Indian Small Arms System and is a family of infantry arms consisting of an assault rifle, a light machine gun and a carbine.

The 5.56mm by 45mm calibre weapon will be replaced by the Future-INSAS, a prototype for which is currently in development stage.

The standard INSAS rifle used by Indian Army.

"We are always trying to incorporate new technology into existing rifle systems. We are currently working on a future INSAS rifle which can be integrated into the Future Infantry Soldier project by including a sensor and a thermal imaging device onto the rifle itself," Pune-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) Director Anil M Dattar said.

The ARDE has started working on the new rifle so that it could give night vision to the soldier through thermal imaging sensors integrated onto the weapon system.

"Usually Thermal Imagers are available in larger weapon systems or as stand alone. We are trying to miniaturise the TI sensors to fit it on the Future-INSAS," Date said.

The basic idea was that the future soldier, sent into a counter-insurgency or anti-terrorist operation in an urban or a jungle environment, has a handy weapon that he could use.

Joining the Future-INSAS family of weapons will be a modern sub-machine carbine with 5.56mm by 30mm calibre incorporating both a pistol and a rifle design, so that the soldier can fire the weapon using just one hand.

"Obviously it will be light weight and have less power than F-INSAS and hence can be fired with one hand. But it will still be lethal and effective," Dattar said.

The future rifle and carbine will come alongside the Future Infantry Soldier project, which itself will be completed in three phases.

The first phase of the Future Infantry Soldier project would be completed in three years.





http://www.brahmand.com/news/DRDO-to-develop-two-new-rifles-for-Indian-Army/5663/1/10.html

 

[sayareakd]

Can you post one pic. As far as i know INSAS only sports attachment specific rail that too only for mounting scopes with customised attachment.

here is the rail on rifle...........

and her is how it is used for rifle.........

and here is how that rail has been used

now you can observed that once scope is attached to scope it obstructed the iron sight.

If that be the case you have to add red dot on the INSAS, like this



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

something like this

which will be viewed from the iron sight and will look like this

 

[Logan]

The whole thing is pretty unclear though as we are considering putting a red dot on Insas,but nobody is sure as to whether this rifle will be retained or phased out soon.DRDO claims to be in the process of developing two rifles for the project but no detailed info is out yet except a few vague photos.I wonder is the project so secretive and classified that we are in complete darkness about it's progress or is this whole thing just an eyewash to refrain people from concentrating on the shortcomings of the infantry's development issues.We still do not have a proper ballistic helmet for the army and claim that patkas are better.Some modernization is visible only for the paras.The DRDO and the ministry should start acting fast otherwise F-Insas will remain a dream.

 

[pmaitra]

Can you post one pic. As far as i know INSAS only sports attachment specific rail that too only for mounting scopes with customised attachment.

sayareakd has already responded with pictures. Moreover, there are pictures already posted by Kunal Biswas in this thread (post #159): http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?t=3796&p=201700&viewfull=1#post201700

 

[pmaitra]

Assault Rifle Bullet Ballistics

Comparison between 7.62x39mm and 5.56x45mm:
There has been much discussion regarding rifles with different calibers. Many have argued for and against the two major calibers in use today, the 7.62x39mm and the 5.56x45mm This post is to give a rough idea about the different calibers that were used and their power.

Earlier calibers (may still be in use):

Rounds for early automatic rifles: the 6.5x52 Carcano, 7.65 Mannlicher Carbine, .30 Pedersen, 8mm Ribeyrolle (replica), Swiss 7.65x35, .276 Pedersen, Swiss 7.65x38 with bullet alongside, 9x40 Lahti, 9x35 Lahti

Intermediate service cartridges: 6.5mm Arisaka, 7mm Medium, .30 M1 Carbine, 7.92mm Kurz, 7.62mm AK-47, 7.62x45 Czech, 9x39 Russian (silenced AP - replica round), 5.56x45 SS109, 5.45x39 AK-74, 5.8x42 Chinese

Exotic attempts: 5.56x45 with Monad bullet, 4.5mm Schirnecker, 9/4mm Kaltmann (development round, with part-metal case), 5.56mm Folded, 5.56mm Hughes Lockless, 5.56mm US caseless, 6mm Voere caseless, early HK G11 4.7x21 rounds, final G11 4.7x33

7.62x51 and 5.56x45 rounds are on the left, next to photographic mock-ups showing three possible options for a general-purpose cartridge: the 6.5x45, 6.8x45 and 7x45. These were created by slightly extending the 6.8x43 Rem case and pasting on long-range bullets of appropriate calibres

Current and/or common calibers:

The photo shows current service rifle/MG rounds and prototypes, from left to right: 7.62x54R, 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 7.62x51, 5.56x45, 5.8x42, 6.8x43 Rem SPC, 6.5x38 Grendel, earlier versions of LSAT caseless and LSAT plastic-cased.

The graph above shows the bullet energies at ranges of 100 to 1,000 metres for the four cartridges mentioned. The differences between the 5.56 mm, 6.8 mm and 7.62 mm are gradually magnified as the range increases, with the 6.8 mm producing 1.5x the energy of the 5.56 mm at 100 m, but 2.1x at 1,000 m, while the 7.62 mm develops 2x of the 5.56 mm's energy at 100 m and 3.4x at 1,000 m. The more aerodynamic bullet of the 6.5 mm Grendel means that its initial advantage of 1.6x of the 5.56 mm's energy at 100 m increases dramatically to 3.8x at 1,000 m – greater even than the 7.62 mm M80.

Energy/Performance Chart (click to enlarge):


Video discussion of Ballistic Performance (it is commentary):

For details, see this link: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm

 

[sayareakd]

The whole thing is pretty unclear though as we are considering putting a red dot on Insas,but nobody is sure as to whether this rifle will be retained or phased out soon.

FINSAS will take at least 10 years to be fully inducted into IA, till such time INSAS rifle will be standard weapon thereafter it will be given to Para military, police (who already have INSAS rifles) to phase our SLR, staingunand 303.

yeah i do feel that our guys deserves good helmet and BP jackets with good camouflage.

 

[pmaitra]

Lee Enfield Rifle: Disambiguation of Misnomenclature

FINSAS will take at least 10 years to be fully inducted into IA, till such time INSAS rifle will be standard weapon thereafter it will be given to Para military, police (who already have INSAS rifles) to phase our SLR, staingunand 303.

yeah i do feel that our guys deserves good helmet and BP jackets with good camouflage.

Kindly allow me to intercede here for a minor technical detail.

.303 or .308?

The last one mentioned as '.303' is not used in India any more. The name of that rifle is SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield) and they are wrongly referred to as .303.

The term .303 implies .303" (bullet diameter 7.9mm), i.e. the diameter of the bullet. The RFI (Rifle Factory Ishapore) made SMLEs were built for 7.62mm NATO (approx. .308", bullet diamater 7.82 mm) rounds and used better steel than the original SMLEs of British origin. Hence, it would be appropriate to call them .308, but the name is still SMLE. Another difference from the British SMLEs is that the RFI SMLEs had 12 round and more squarish magazines as compared to 10 round magazines for the British ones. Yet another difference is that the RFI SMLEs used stronger steel for 7.62mm NATO rounds as compared to the original British ones. There are many other subtle differences. India has been making these rifles as RFI 2A and RFI 2A1 since after the Sino-Indian War in 1962 (guess: 1963-1975).

Note: RFI SMLEs were not conversions, but were specifically made for 7.62mm NATO rounds.

Comparison:

RFI SMLE

British SMLE Mark III

The following video gives a very accurate description of this great rifle:


P.S.: Let us all at DFI set high standards for accuracy. Hence, while commoners might refer to this rifle as .303, let us call it RFI SMLE instead. Just a humble request.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle_7.62mm_2A1

 

[sayareakd]

The last one mentioned as '.303' is not used in India any more.

I Just saw few of these in U.P (police) from where i came back just yesterday it is still in use, yeah i also saw this with RPF (railway protection force) on 6/12/2010. I just wonder if it can still fire.


(added later on)

probably i will go again this month, then i can bring pics of 303 for you.

 

[pmaitra]

I Just saw few of these in U.P (police) from where i came back just yesterday it is still in use, yeah i also saw this with RPF (railway protection force) on 6/12/2010. I just wonder if it can still fire.

I am not sure how easy it is to distriguish between a .303 SMLE and 7.62mm SMLE. One needs to look here to be sure (below):

These are Ishapore made .303 SMLEs:

This is Ishapore made 7.62mm NATO SMLE:

 

[pmaitra]

I Just saw few of these in U.P (police) from where i came back just yesterday it is still in use, yeah i also saw this with RPF (railway protection force) on 6/12/2010. I just wonder if it can still fire.


(added later on)

probably i will go again this month, then i can bring pics of 303 for you.

I cannot see the magazines clearly. If you see that the magazine is squarish, then it is 7.62mm NATO SMLE; or else, it is .303 SMLE. Or maybe you can just ask the policeman or RPF personnel.

Edit:
Where is this BTW, if you don't mind me asking? Is it on Lucknow-Lalkuan or Agra-Lalkuan route? Looks like Metre-Gauge rolling stock to me.

 

[sayareakd]

@pmaitra that is not my pic, i just took it from the net to show you that 303 still in service in India. I will post the pic next time i will go out. Yeah try to get which rifle it is. BTW now a days i am talking to CISF guys at metro. Good to see that some of them wear BP (wish all of them carrying rifle would have wore them).

 

[Ray]

I am not sure how easy it is to distriguish between a .303 SMLE and 7.62mm SMLE.

Some distinguishing differences are:

The 'furniture' is different. The .303 look rough

The flash hider of the SLR is a giveaway.

The magazines are different.

The trigger guards are different.

The Ishapore 2A and 2A1 rifles are often incorrectly described as ".308 conversions". The 2A/2A1 rifles are not conversions of .303 calibre SMLE Mk III rifles; rather, they are newly manufactured firearms and are not technically chambered for commercial .308 Winchester ammunition. However, many 2A/2A1 owners shoot such ammunition in their rifles with no problems, although it should be noted that some factory loaded .308 Winchester cartridges may appear to generate higher pressures than 7.62 mm NATO, even though the rounds are otherwise interchangeable, however this is due to the different systems of pressure measurement used for NATO and commercial cartridges.

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

Good news

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ops-new-assault-rifle/articleshow/7740063.cms

The Ordnance Factory of Tiruchi (OFT) has designed and developed an indigenous assault rifle matching the specifications of the AK47.

"When put into use by our armed forces and other security agencies, the rifle will be recognized as pride of India. It has been indigenously developed and has all the features of AK-47,'' said A K Prabhakar, OFT general manager, in an interaction with reporters on the sidelines of OFT Day celebrations. OFT, one among 41 such factories in the country, was established 45 years ago on the outskirts of the city.

To mark the contribution of the Tiruchi factory in developing the rifle, officials have decided to christen it "Trichy Assault Rifle,'' Prabhakar said. Field trials have been done for the 7.62mm caliber rifle with a range of 400 metres. "The rifle has been successfully tried by the Indian Army,'' Prabhakar said. It features a foldable butt and boasts of night vision device besides telescopic day vision system.

OFT has also developed a hand-held multi-shell launcher. The weapon of 38mm calibre with a range of 400 metres could fire six shells at a time. It could be used for firing grenades and tear gas shells.

Prabhakar said this was the first time that OFT was coming out with an "internal security weapon", or a riot control device in common parlance. "One batch of the device has been supplied to CRPF and many states have evinced interest in buying it for their police force,'' he said.

Heavy Alloy Penetrator Project (HAAP), another ordnance unit and the only one in the country to produce anti-tank projectiles, has also received overwhelming response for its indigenous anti-submarine rockets.

HAPP general manager B Pugazhendi said the Indian navy had placed bulk orders for the six-kilometre range anti-submarine rockets named RGB 60 developed by HAPP.

HAPP had dispatched 12 units of RGB 12, another version of the anti-submarine rockets, to the Navy last year. "With inhouse research and development efforts, HAPP has also developed 120mm caliber and 125mm calibre MK-II anti-tank projectiles,'' Pugazhendi said.

HAPP has chalked out a modernization plan for enhancing the production of MK-II projectiles. "Very soon, the blueprint for modernization will be submitted to the ordnance factory board that will in turn forward it to defence ministry for clearance,'' he said.

 

[pmaitra]

^^ Interesting. Have you any pics bro?

 

[ALBY]

bro is it the improved version on ak7 design or with a different design?can any one provide some pics and an elaborated description...

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Good news

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ops-new-assault-rifle/articleshow/7740063.cms

The Ordnance Factory of Tiruchi (OFT) has designed and developed an indigenous assault rifle matching the specifications of the AK47.

"When put into use by our armed forces and other security agencies, the rifle will be recognized as pride of India. It has been indigenously developed and has all the features of AK-47,'' said A K Prabhakar, OFT general manager, in an interaction with reporters on the sidelines of OFT Day celebrations. OFT, one among 41 such factories in the country, was established 45 years ago on the outskirts of the city.

To mark the contribution of the Tiruchi factory in developing the rifle, officials have decided to christen it "Trichy Assault Rifle,'' Prabhakar said. Field trials have been done for the 7.62mm caliber rifle with a range of 400 metres. "The rifle has been successfully tried by the Indian Army,'' Prabhakar said. It features a foldable butt and boasts of night vision device besides telescopic day vision system.

OFT has also developed a hand-held multi-shell launcher. The weapon of 38mm calibre with a range of 400 metres could fire six shells at a time. It could be used for firing grenades and tear gas shells.

Prabhakar said this was the first time that OFT was coming out with an "internal security weapon", or a riot control device in common parlance. "One batch of the device has been supplied to CRPF and many states have evinced interest in buying it for their police force,'' he said.

Heavy Alloy Penetrator Project (HAAP), another ordnance unit and the only one in the country to produce anti-tank projectiles, has also received overwhelming response for its indigenous anti-submarine rockets.

HAPP general manager B Pugazhendi said the Indian navy had placed bulk orders for the six-kilometre range anti-submarine rockets named RGB 60 developed by HAPP.

HAPP had dispatched 12 units of RGB 12, another version of the anti-submarine rockets, to the Navy last year. "With inhouse research and development efforts, HAPP has also developed 120mm caliber and 125mm calibre MK-II anti-tank projectiles,'' Pugazhendi said.

HAPP has chalked out a modernization plan for enhancing the production of MK-II projectiles. "Very soon, the blueprint for modernization will be submitted to the ordnance factory board that will in turn forward it to defence ministry for clearance,'' he said.

Are there any pics of the gun...................

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

well it took 64 years to match the specification of ak-47 then i hope it does not take another 64 years to make the bullpup design rifle for finsas.but it is a very good developement if the rifle could marry the penetration power of an ak-47's 7.62*39mm round with the accuracy of a m4's 5.56*45mm round.i hope this is not another improved version of ak-47 and a completely indegeneous design and also this could be inducted in the army and paramilitary forces soon.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

well it took 64 years to match the specification of ak-47 then i hope it does not take another 64 years to make the bullpup design rifle for finsas.but it is a very good developement if the rifle could marry the penetration power of an ak-47's 7.62*39mm round with the accuracy of a m4's 5.56*45mm round.i hope this is not another improved version of ak-47 and a completely indegeneous design and also this could be inducted in the army and paramilitary forces soon.

Its nothing but a further improved version of AK-7, It will be under paramilitary and if its satisfy army then we may see it under RR hands..

Also do note it says 7.62 ( M43 ) no where it said 6.8mm..