Siachen Glacier : The Highest battleground on Earth

[LETHALFORCE]

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

Army cautions against concessions on Siachen

Army cautions against concessions on Siachen
Rules out any demilitarisation of the world's highest battlefield
Arun Joshi/TNS

Jammu, May 26
The Indian Army has cautioned the Central Government against falling into any trap of Pakistan on the Siachen glacier. It has re-asserted its stand it would not move any of its men or machines from Siachen glacier, ruling out any demilitarisation from the highest battle ground of the world.

The Army regards Siachen, standing at a height of 21,000 ft, as its high-value strategic asset and believes that any diplomatic mis-step would work to the advantage of Pakistan and China.

Notwithstanding the plea of Pakistan Army Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, ahead of the June 10-11 India-Pakistan talks on Siachen, that the glacier be demilitarised, the Indian army is not convinced by any of the arguments forwarded by him.

His plea had come in the wake of the killing of 140 or more Pakistani soldiers in an avalanche last month.

The weather and terrain are more lethal than guns of Pakistani soldiers, which, in any case, are silent now for nine years following November 26, 2003 ceasefire on borders, including the glacier. The Army has made a fresh assessment of the situation and said a firm no to the Pakistani proposal unless Islamabad agrees to Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL) on the glacier.

"Essentially, this is because of the trust deficit," Army Chief Gen V K Singh told a TV channel yesterday.

He also disclosed that Pakistan was not on the glacier, its deployment was beyond Saltro Ridge - one of the most strategic points on the glacier.

Ever since the Kargil war, which happened as a result of Pakistani soldiers occupying trans-Himalayan heights in 1999, the Indian Army is not in a mood to take any chances. Sources told The Tribune today that the China factor, too, has also been taken into the account.

There are nearly 11,000 men of People's Liberation Army (PLA) in Gilgit, Baltistan and other parts of the Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Some of them are very close to the glacier.

Pakistan had, in the last talks on the glacier in May last year, stressed on the involvement of China in the future talks on Siachen.

This has doubled the threat to "our strategic asset," a senior army officer told The Tribune. The China-Pakistan nexus presents a worrying scenario for the Indian Army. The Northern Command chief Lt. Gen. K T Parnaik, while talking of the nexus, had said that the presence of "Chinese troops in Gilgit, Baltistan and Pakistan occupied Kashmir was a worrying scenario for the Indian army."

THE CONTENTIONS

Siachen is its high-value strategic asset
Any diplomatic mis-step would help Pakistan and China
A firm no to the proposal unless Islamabad agrees to Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL) on the glacier
Indian Army is at the strategic heights. Once vacated, these would become vulnerable
Pakistan, it is feared, might repeat Kargil-type misadventure

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Dramatic results unlikely in Siachen talks with Pak: AK Antony - Times Of India

Dramatic results unlikely in Siachen talks with Pak

 

[ajtr]

On what basis ? On what assumption ? If anyone believes this he is mistaken.

on the basis of social,cultural and family ties of indian muslims across the border.

===

Why should India take any step ? Pakistan is getting hammered, and we should do our utmost to put pressure on the eastern front.

When your neighbour's house is on fire then there is no guaranty that your house is safe and it wont catch fire from the sparks flying from ur neighbour's house.

===

We don't have a dual-citizenship treaty with Pakistan. Therefore anyone with a Pakistani passport is an alien, religion-family link doesn't matter.
My relatives are American citizens, that doesn't mean US govt will look after me.

that can be take as one of the suggestion in implementing dual citizenship with pak as its being crudely implemented for the people of azad kashmir and gilgit baltistan.JnK assembly even has seats reserved for those people.usa has long being extending support to uk from majority of whites went though usa has fought to get its independence from uk but today usa does look after uk .and in someway to canada too.and usa-uk analogy can be seen in indo-pak relations too.

====

Another genocide of innocents a la east Pakistan.

If india is right in attacking east pakistan by making genocide as the reason then pakistan too is right in attacking india by excesses done by GOI in kashmir ,gujarat,UP,bihar orisa and whole of red corridor.you cant have double standards to take high moral ground.

==

It doesn't matter if you love or hate India, if you commit wrong/treason you will be persecuted not your relatives or friends.

Whole families get persecuted for the doing of few gujarat rings bells?or 1984 or 1992?Were those killed for no fault of theirs all traitors?

===

Foreign and strategic affairs are differently addressed. I thought you knew.

Domestic affairs influence both foreign and strategic affairs.Otherwise india would not have been talking to pak over kashmir issue.

Indian govt has an obligation towards Indian citizens, unfortunately Pakistanis don't particularly pay any heed to Indian government.

true indian govt has obligation to its citizen thats why its more important for GOI to help balance pakistan who have many indians living there.

==

Pakistan doesn't want to persecute rather shields terrorists, India has judicial delays. Two different things.

help pak govt to prosecute the terrorists by bring the suitable evidences which can stand in court of law.even usa didnt have such evidence against saeed.

Extended home ? We are two different countries.

no.its the extended subcontinent.

===

so ?
Millions of Indians have relatives in Middle East, US, Canada, and UK so is it their duty of them to make India a developed country then.

yes they do their duty by influencing govt in usa in favour of india like nri's do in usa.

 

[panduranghari]

siachin is part of kashmir and as of today kashmir is disputed region.

Kashmir is not disputed. You can take it to UN. But now as India has become more assertive and also economically more potent, the world prefers to listen to us than some disgruntled 5th world stone age country which prides itself on become the a seeping pustule on the backside and an eye sore for the rest of the world.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The Gyari disaster has made Paki positions in the SIachen Area simply UNTENABLE

Gyari was the most important logistics base

There back has been broken by that Avalanche

But they want India to give them a FACE saving exit

The DELUSIONAL Pakis are hoping to work their magic on PM MMS

They ALSO believe that India OWES them some concession after
their so called MFN status to India which is actually a COST cutting move for the Pakis

Pakis are only saving their transport costs by buying goods from India

But they think that they are doing us a favour

They have absolutely no position left in Siachen.
Why should India give up the advantageous position it will
be needed in the future to make a push into POK. Pakistan
made a push into Kargil now it is our turn.

 

[ajtr]

You don't know for sure what Sania Mirza thinks.

And neither you do or Ray sir.

Re-read Ray sir's posts and try to understand the intent and logic.

both issues are same india lost askai chin to china in war and pakistan has to negotiate it out with chinese hegemony.even if pakistan would have refused china would have taken it.i would say it was diplomatically given away to avoid any future confrontaions.

 

[ajtr]

it will never happen.

nothing is impossible

 

[LETHALFORCE]

nothing is impossible

It will prevent China from getting access to Pakistan and it
will opens up the opportunity for India to get POK back.

 

[ajtr]

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

Army cautions against concessions on Siachen

V.K. Singh is retiring on may 30th and none knows views of Gen.B.K singh. even if he dis-agrees and civilian govt views that its worth to vacate siachin then IA will sure climb down.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

V.K. Singh is retiring on may 30th and none knows views of Gen.B.K singh. even if he dis-agrees and civilian govt views that its worth to vacate siachin then IA will sure climb down.

Like I said this will never happen. His views mean diddly squat.
India has not militarized Kashmir fo 5 decades to vacate it;the people
want POK back and we will get it.

 

[ajtr]

Dramatic results unlikely in Siachen talks with Pak: AK Antony - Times Of India

Dramatic results unlikely in Siachen talks with Pak

In any tough dispute dramatic results can not be expected but to be realist it can be solved.

 

[pankaj nema]

nothing is impossible

Of course your countrymen are having a second religion after Islam
it is called DELUSION

Many paki analysts have written about the delusional grandeur that is the basis of Paki thinking

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Then pull away pakistan from china.India can never take away Azad kashmir

very soon it will happen. That is why Siachen will never be
demilitarized.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Some posts have been moved to http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/politics-society/127-jammu-kashmir-debate.html.

This thread is mainly about the Siachen Glacier

 

[ajtr]

If you people dont consider Siachin as disputed then what this thread is doing in pakistan forum?It should be in strategic affairs or in internal security forum like J&K thread.This thread's presence in pakistan forum is proof enough that you people too consider it as disputed

 

[LETHALFORCE]

If you people dont consider Siachin as disputed then what this thread is doing in pakistan forum?It should be in strategic affairs or in internal security forum like J&K thread.This thread's presence in pakistan forum is proof enough that you people too consider it as disputed

Soon it won't be disputed when it comes back to India and there will be no
issue of what section it should be in Jammu Kashmir, POK all belong to India.

 

[ajtr]

Soon it won't be disputed when it comes back to India and there will be no
issue of what section it should be in Jammu Kashmir, POK all belong to India.

Forget about siachin and azad kashmir indians are still debating the status of Jand K after more than 60 yrs.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Forget about siachin and azad kashmir indians are still debating the status of Jand K after more than 60 yrs.

please take the discussion to Jammu and Kashmir section.

 

[ajtr]

Former Vice Admiral Arun Kumar Singh's views on Siachin after participating in Track-2 dialogue

Track 2 musings

As a self-confessed hardliner, I must admit that being a part of the team engaged in Indo-Pak Track 2 dialogue has been very interesting. A lot of good work is going on by a dedicated team of retired military officers from India and Pakistan who have spent the best years of their lives preparing for war against each other. The two-nation team also includes a handful of retired diplomats, who had, whilst in service, tried to score brownie points at international forums.

It must be mentioned here that mutually agreed military confidence building measures (CBMs) have so far worked (including the ceasefire in Kashmir), though CBMs in international waters have failed, with the Pakistan Navy warships routinely carrying out dangerous manoeuvres close to Indian warships while Pakistani aircraft routinely make low passes over Indian warships. An incident at sea, involving loss of life due to collision, can lead to a major Indo-Pak crisis.

While the Track 2 deliberations cannot be revealed, since their primary purpose is to provide inputs for Track 1 talks, media reports indicate a possible visit by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to Pakistan by the end of 2012 or early 2013. Mention has been made of Siachen and Sir Creek disputes being on the agenda.

Recent media reports about Pakistan wanting to reschedule the Track 1 Sir Creek meeting to sometime after the June 2012 Siachen meeting indicates the possibility that the Sir Creek dispute is now being linked by Pakistan to the Siachen dispute.

Frankly, I would be very happy if these two disputes are resolved amicably. I may add that India needs to give up what is jocularly called "out of box diplomacy" with regard to its western neighbour. It refers to the unilateral, unconditional goodwill gesture made by Indian Prime Ministers who had lived in pre-Partition Pakistan and have nostalgic memories of their childhood years there.

If media reports are to be believed one such Prime Minister disbanded India's entire intelligence setup in Pakistan (as a unilateral goodwill gesture), resulting in complete loss of intelligence, followed by the Kargil War in 1999 and numerous terror strikes across India. The damage to Indian intelligence will take decades to undo, as building up human intelligence is a time-consuming process. Then we had the Sharm el-Sheikh agreement in 2009, which brought in the fiction of "India's involvement in Baluchistan".

Having lived and sailed in the freezing Siberian Fareast and having visited cold places in the Arctic circle, I was frankly not too overawed by the terrain when I made very brief visits to Siachen and Sir Creek though I do salute the men who stand guard there under very difficult conditions.

These two (and other) Indo-Pak contentious issues need to be resolved, not because of difficult terrain or costs but because it will make greater sense for the two countries to work together and improve not only their economies but their national security also.

The two leaders — Dr Singh and Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari — would do a signal service to humanity (and be truly deserving of a Nobel Peace prize) if they can sign an most favoured nation agreement, put territorial disputes on the back burner, "peacefully" demolish Pakistani terror camps, give up Pakistan's 2011 plan to deploy tactical nuclear weapons and put trade on the front burner. Rich nations generally do not fight against each other.

Though both countries started out at the same time as independent nations, the differences between India and Pakistan have become more and more marked since 1947 despite having common ailments like corruption, massive tax evasion and numerous scams. The differences are writ large on India's continued growth and march into a new century (due to its hardworking private entrepreneurs) while Pakistan (due to a "martial population" brought up in madrasas) slid into economic collapse and became a victim of self-created terrorist monsters.

Pakistan is caught in a time warp — that of 1947. It needs to emulate India's land reforms and secular ethos. It also needs to look after its minorities who have dwindled from 15 per cent in 1947 to below two per cent in 2012. Well-known Pakistani human rights activist Asma Jahangir is reported to have remarked that "if Muslims in India constantly crib to have no say and no power, they should come to Pakistan to see the plight of the minority Hindus with their own eyes. They will never complain and learn to live peacefully with their Hindu brethren in India".

Unfortunately, despite courageous activism by the Pakistani judiciary and the press, there is little palpable change in Pakistan's foreign policy and strategic posture. The gloves may be off once the US withdraws from Afghanistan in 2014. Pakistan is, perhaps, realising that the era of getting foreign aid because of its geo-strategic location is over. The Americans have managed to maintain their logistics supply to troops in Afghanistan, despite the Pakistani ban on use of its soil since November 2011, but may require Pakistani land and sea route to remove their heavy equipment post 2014, and also Pakistani non-interference in Afghanistan.

India for its part too needs to improve relations with all its neighbours for some very selfish reasons. It cannot "break out" of South Asia to occupy its rightful place as a global economic power by 2050, by which time Pakistan will, going by the current trends, be a very poor country of 350 million people.

How will the border disputes ever get resolved? Sometime in the distant future, when leaders of a rich India meet the leaders of a rich Pakistan and a rich China, they may discover that between rich nations it's perhaps easier to find "out of the box" solutions, especially when the people are educated, well-fed and gainfully employed in activities other than terror.

 

[ajtr]

Siachen troop withdrawal tops agenda for talks with Pakistan

India has agreed to discuss the sensitive Siachen issue at the June 11-12 secretary-level meeting with Pakistan, pushing the Sir Creek issue – another flashpoint – way down the agenda. Observers say the reason for resetting the priorities is that Siachen being a far more complex issue than Sir Creek, any leeway on that front may give Pakistan the domestic leverage necessary to push ahead with the peace process.

The Siachen glacier is known as the world's highest battlefield where troops have been deployed at elevations of up to 22,000 feet. Sir Creek, a 96 km disputed strip of water in the Rann of Kutch, divides the Kutch region between Gujarat and Sindh province of Pakistan.

Pakistan wants to know how far India will be flexible on the Siachen issue before revealing its cards on Sir Creek. It was at the insistence of Pakistan that the talks on Sir Creek scheduled in May had to be postponed and the new dates have not yet been decided.
Also, New Delhi is deciphering the confusing signals from across the border, including that of the neighbour backing out of signing the new visa agreement at the last moment.

The Siachen troop withdrawal issue gained prominence in Pakistan following a massive avalanche burying a Pakistan army camp in Siachen on April 7, resulting in the death of 129 soldiers and 11 civilians.

Just after the incident, Pakistan president Asif Ali Zardari advocated for troop withdrawal from Siachen during his informal meeting with PM Manmohan Singh in April.
The foreign secretary-level meeting is expected to prepare the ground for external affairs minister SM Krishna's Pakistan tour probably in the third week of July to review the peace process.