Siachen Glacier : The Highest battleground on Earth
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PM wont do anything without Army advice on such issues, Obvious that is..
Final Decision is from PM but based on Army Inputs..
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PM will not take a decision till he is not backed by the Army. The only way MMS will be able to take a decision on his own is if he has a majority in the parliament, a lot of Congress ruled states, is able to tame the rightists and he appoints stooges in the army and the south block. And most importantly if he is convinced returns are going to be greater !
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Let us not take our PM to be totally devoid of sense.
He is a highly educated man.
He will surely realise that once India vacates and Pakistan renegades and occupies, it will be a contiguous territorial mass from Shaksgam (cede to China by Pakistan) to Aksai Chin (occupied by China) in enemy hands.
Now the PM would know that if such a thing happened because of his magnanimity, he would not have even a pallu to hide his face with.
So, don't think that our PM is devoid of sense like Musharraf.
He is a highly educated man.
He will surely realise that once India vacates and Pakistan renegades and occupies, it will be a contiguous territorial mass from Shaksgam (cede to China by Pakistan) to Aksai Chin (occupied by China) in enemy hands.
Now the PM would know that if such a thing happened because of his magnanimity, he would not have even a pallu to hide his face with.
So, don't think that our PM is devoid of sense like Musharraf.
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Neil
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Pakistan's glacier disaster: fallout yet to be felt
On May 29, Pakistan officially announced that 129 soldiers and 11 civilians had died on April 7 after a massive avalanche buried the military unit operating in Ghyari, near the Siachen glacier.
Earlier, on May 26, the Pakistan Army had recovered three bodies from the area. The discovery of these bodies has ended public hopes of a miraculous rescue, and forced deeper introspection on the issue of contested leadership in Pakistan. Therein lies the path that inevitably leads to heightened civil-military tensions and this does not bode well for the current India-Pakistan peace process.
Despite the recovery of three bodies, the situation in Ghyari continues to be extremely difficult. Even with 50 or so of the Frontier Works Organisation (FWO) heavy construction vehicles, the vast amount of snow and rock displaced by the avalanche is frustrating the efforts of the rescuers. The hundreds of Pakistani soldiers working at the site remain at risk of being buried in further avalanches as the rock in the area is quite unstable. The risk posed to the recovery operation is so great that Pakistani Saltoro veterans like Lt. Col. (Retd.) Zaheer ul Hassan have publicly suggested abandoning the recovery operation.
Pakistani positions east of Ghyari are due to run out of supplies in June. In a bid to contain this crisis, the responsibility of maintaining troops and re-supply to positions east of Ghyari has been transferred to a back-up battalion HQ at Goma and supplies are being dumped at Shabbir post, the artillery position east of Ghyari. However, due to the demanding nature of the rescue operations, the supply line to the positions in the middle of the Saltoro range remains stretched thin. It is likely that the Pakistan Army may not be able to meet its usual re-supply and stockpiling goals this summer. It is reported that the four helicopters in use there are logging much higher hours of flight time per day.
An estimated 1,00,000 kg of POL (petrol, oil, lubricants) was stocked at Ghyari. While the extent of recoverable POL at Ghyari is unknown, the POL at Goma should be enough for a few months endurance on the ridge at a normal operational tempo. However, at the present rate, the Pakistan Army will most likely consume the reserves at Goma very quickly. It is unclear at this stage as to how exactly the POL will be restocked.
In short, the human and fiscal costs are adding up very quickly.
For the Pakistan Army, the high costs have to be borne and are worth it. The Army accords the highest priority to the civilian relatives of the soldiers posted in this area. As these people are essential to the morale in the armed forces, the Pakistan Army spares no effort to keep them happy.
The 6 NLI (Northern Light Infantry) of the Pakistani Army has many Shias from the Gilgit-Baltistan region and it played a key role in the Kargil War. Yet, despite everything that the NLI did in Kargil, the Pakistani Army sought to deny the involvement of this unit in the war. In order to support the fiction that Kargil was the work of Kashmiri separatists, the Pakistan Army initially refused to accept the bodies of dead NLI soldiers from India.
Quite naturally, there was great anger in the region and the Pakistan Army backpedalled. It converted the NLI into a regular infantry unit and awarded its war dead proper recognition by conferring posthumous gallantry awards and other honors. Because of this history, today, until the bodies of the buried NLI soldiers are found and returned with honour to the families, the animosity and latent hostility towards the Pakistan Army in the region will remain.
Usually, after a natural disaster in Pakistan, international donors pour in aid money. These funds are deftly sucked up by corrupt Army men and politicians. Unfortunately for Ghyari, there are no international donors. The only funds -- when provided -- are likely to come from the emergency funds in the Pakistani treasury. This is as bad an option, as Pakistan constantly risks defaulting on its international debt obligations. Digging into the civilian budget to respect General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani's vow of recovering every body will make the politicians very unhappy and could lead to internal fights. The financial costs aren't quite as acceptable to the civilians.
As the realisation that Pakistan spends a much higher fraction of its GDP on the Saltoro war than India slowly sinks into the public mind, a cascading blame-game will begin. At present, the Pakistan Army may come across as a more caring and sensitive entity than its civilian counterparts, but deeper questions about the exact nature of accountability in the country are likely to surface in the internal debate. Given the terrible state of the economy, it is only natural for the civilian leadership to ask whether or not to incur the costs of rebuilding the capacity lost at Ghyari -- and such a question will be the veritable red rag for the bruised Pakistan Army.
A bruised Pakistan Army ego may seek to redeem itself by resorting to intimidation and putting the civilian politicians in their place with a coup or pull another utterly unnecessary Kargil-style stunt on the Saltoro range. Either way this plays out, given the state of the Pakistani economy, it is difficult to a see a future where the Ghyari disaster does not exacerbate civil-military tensions in Pakistan and adversely affect the peace process with India.
New Delhi's initiatives on Siachen should take Ghyari-related developments into account.
Pakistan's glacier disaster: fallout yet to be felt
On May 29, Pakistan officially announced that 129 soldiers and 11 civilians had died on April 7 after a massive avalanche buried the military unit operating in Ghyari, near the Siachen glacier.
Earlier, on May 26, the Pakistan Army had recovered three bodies from the area. The discovery of these bodies has ended public hopes of a miraculous rescue, and forced deeper introspection on the issue of contested leadership in Pakistan. Therein lies the path that inevitably leads to heightened civil-military tensions and this does not bode well for the current India-Pakistan peace process.
Despite the recovery of three bodies, the situation in Ghyari continues to be extremely difficult. Even with 50 or so of the Frontier Works Organisation (FWO) heavy construction vehicles, the vast amount of snow and rock displaced by the avalanche is frustrating the efforts of the rescuers. The hundreds of Pakistani soldiers working at the site remain at risk of being buried in further avalanches as the rock in the area is quite unstable. The risk posed to the recovery operation is so great that Pakistani Saltoro veterans like Lt. Col. (Retd.) Zaheer ul Hassan have publicly suggested abandoning the recovery operation.
Pakistani positions east of Ghyari are due to run out of supplies in June. In a bid to contain this crisis, the responsibility of maintaining troops and re-supply to positions east of Ghyari has been transferred to a back-up battalion HQ at Goma and supplies are being dumped at Shabbir post, the artillery position east of Ghyari. However, due to the demanding nature of the rescue operations, the supply line to the positions in the middle of the Saltoro range remains stretched thin. It is likely that the Pakistan Army may not be able to meet its usual re-supply and stockpiling goals this summer. It is reported that the four helicopters in use there are logging much higher hours of flight time per day.
An estimated 1,00,000 kg of POL (petrol, oil, lubricants) was stocked at Ghyari. While the extent of recoverable POL at Ghyari is unknown, the POL at Goma should be enough for a few months endurance on the ridge at a normal operational tempo. However, at the present rate, the Pakistan Army will most likely consume the reserves at Goma very quickly. It is unclear at this stage as to how exactly the POL will be restocked.
In short, the human and fiscal costs are adding up very quickly.
For the Pakistan Army, the high costs have to be borne and are worth it. The Army accords the highest priority to the civilian relatives of the soldiers posted in this area. As these people are essential to the morale in the armed forces, the Pakistan Army spares no effort to keep them happy.
The 6 NLI (Northern Light Infantry) of the Pakistani Army has many Shias from the Gilgit-Baltistan region and it played a key role in the Kargil War. Yet, despite everything that the NLI did in Kargil, the Pakistani Army sought to deny the involvement of this unit in the war. In order to support the fiction that Kargil was the work of Kashmiri separatists, the Pakistan Army initially refused to accept the bodies of dead NLI soldiers from India.
Quite naturally, there was great anger in the region and the Pakistan Army backpedalled. It converted the NLI into a regular infantry unit and awarded its war dead proper recognition by conferring posthumous gallantry awards and other honors. Because of this history, today, until the bodies of the buried NLI soldiers are found and returned with honour to the families, the animosity and latent hostility towards the Pakistan Army in the region will remain.
Usually, after a natural disaster in Pakistan, international donors pour in aid money. These funds are deftly sucked up by corrupt Army men and politicians. Unfortunately for Ghyari, there are no international donors. The only funds -- when provided -- are likely to come from the emergency funds in the Pakistani treasury. This is as bad an option, as Pakistan constantly risks defaulting on its international debt obligations. Digging into the civilian budget to respect General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani's vow of recovering every body will make the politicians very unhappy and could lead to internal fights. The financial costs aren't quite as acceptable to the civilians.
As the realisation that Pakistan spends a much higher fraction of its GDP on the Saltoro war than India slowly sinks into the public mind, a cascading blame-game will begin. At present, the Pakistan Army may come across as a more caring and sensitive entity than its civilian counterparts, but deeper questions about the exact nature of accountability in the country are likely to surface in the internal debate. Given the terrible state of the economy, it is only natural for the civilian leadership to ask whether or not to incur the costs of rebuilding the capacity lost at Ghyari -- and such a question will be the veritable red rag for the bruised Pakistan Army.
A bruised Pakistan Army ego may seek to redeem itself by resorting to intimidation and putting the civilian politicians in their place with a coup or pull another utterly unnecessary Kargil-style stunt on the Saltoro range. Either way this plays out, given the state of the Pakistani economy, it is difficult to a see a future where the Ghyari disaster does not exacerbate civil-military tensions in Pakistan and adversely affect the peace process with India.
New Delhi's initiatives on Siachen should take Ghyari-related developments into account.
Pakistan's glacier disaster: fallout yet to be felt
So after 3 years DFI admins realised their greatest strategic blunder of keeping Siachin thread in pakistan subforum making as if siachin is disputed region for india and contradicting their own views of siachin being indian land and promptly moved the thread out as i pointed it before to LF.
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Oversight. Some threads got messed up during creation of new sections.So after 3 years DFI admins realised their greatest strategic blunder of keeping Siachin thread in pakistan subforum making as if siachin is disputed region for india and contradicting their own views of siachin being indian land and promptly moved the thread out as i pointed it before to LF.
We should have the Baloch section in Subcontinent rather than under Pakistan and also all news relating to Sindh in SubCon too.
LurkerBaba
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Actually siachen thread got shifted recently some threads were merged
India, Pakistan gain nothing from Siachen'
Both India and Pakistan gain nothing out of Siachen, the world's highest battleground where armies of the two neighbours stand eyeball-to-eyeball, and the matter is only about "satisfaction of egos", a Pakistani minister has said.The militaries of both India and Pakistan are an obstacle
to the resolution of the Siachen dispute, said Chaudhary Ahmed Mukhtar, minister for power and water.
Mukhtar, who was earlier minister for defence, said that both Pakistan and India want to settle the dispute and its resolution would benefit both the countries.
India, being the bigger country, should be "large-hearted" in initiating a settlement, the minister was quoted as saying by Dawn News.
A total of 140 people -- 129 soldiers and 11 civilians -- were buried in an avalanche that struck a Pakistan Army camp April 7 in Gayari area of Siachen. All those killed were declared "martyrs" by the army.
Pakistan and India will hold discussions on the Siachen row June 11 and 12, after Pakistani army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani sought talks with New Delhi to demilitarise the battleground.
The avalanche incident prompted Kayani to say that Islamabad was open for talks with New Delhi.
"Peaceful coexistence between the two neighbours is very important so that everybody can concentrate on the well-being of the people," Kayani said in April after a visit to oversee the rescue efforts.
"Both countries should sit together to resolve all the issues including Siachen," he said.
Later, foreign minister Hina Rabbani Khar said India should take "a bold initiative" to resolve the dispute over Siachen.
Both India and Pakistan gain nothing out of Siachen, the world's highest battleground where armies of the two neighbours stand eyeball-to-eyeball, and the matter is only about "satisfaction of egos", a Pakistani minister has said.The militaries of both India and Pakistan are an obstacle
to the resolution of the Siachen dispute, said Chaudhary Ahmed Mukhtar, minister for power and water.
Mukhtar, who was earlier minister for defence, said that both Pakistan and India want to settle the dispute and its resolution would benefit both the countries.
India, being the bigger country, should be "large-hearted" in initiating a settlement, the minister was quoted as saying by Dawn News.
A total of 140 people -- 129 soldiers and 11 civilians -- were buried in an avalanche that struck a Pakistan Army camp April 7 in Gayari area of Siachen. All those killed were declared "martyrs" by the army.
Pakistan and India will hold discussions on the Siachen row June 11 and 12, after Pakistani army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani sought talks with New Delhi to demilitarise the battleground.
The avalanche incident prompted Kayani to say that Islamabad was open for talks with New Delhi.
"Peaceful coexistence between the two neighbours is very important so that everybody can concentrate on the well-being of the people," Kayani said in April after a visit to oversee the rescue efforts.
"Both countries should sit together to resolve all the issues including Siachen," he said.
Later, foreign minister Hina Rabbani Khar said India should take "a bold initiative" to resolve the dispute over Siachen.
PM picks Army chief who will accept Siachen pact
Bikram Singh will help the Prime Minister reverse India's position on Siachen to ensure that Dr Singh can leave his 'peace mark' on Indo-Pak relations.
Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has put in place the full set of officials who will to support his desire to settle the Siachen dispute with Pakistan in a "Big Bang" visit across the border in a few months. The other dispute on the brink of resolution is Sir Creek. While the two nations have found a solution to Sir Creek, Siachen remains a problem because Indian Army chiefs starting from General A.S. Vaidya and continuing to General V.K. Singh have refused to support what they perceive will be a major concession to Pakistan, as it is India which will have to withdraw.
India occupied the disputed Siachen heights in 1984. Since then Pakistan has been trying to push India back through military force, and has failed. During the last five years, Pakistan has decided that what it could not win by war it can achieve through diplomacy as long as Dr Singh is PM. The Pakistan Army also sees the wisdom of forcing India back from its present line without the cost of conflict. Lt. Gen. Bikram Singh, the new Army chief, is expected to lead the reversal of the Army's position in order to help Dr Singh achieve his dream of leaving a "peace mark" on Indo-Pak relations.
Other key officials such as Principal Secretary Pulok Chatterjee and Foreign Secretary Ranjan Mathai are already on board, and willing. The PM also has the support of Home Minister P. Chidambaram. Defence Minister A.K. Antony is the only holdout, but could be pacified if Sonia Gandhi agrees to support Dr Singh on his Pak initiative.
{
Siachen remains a problem because Indian Army chiefs have refused to support what they perceive will be a major concession to Pakistan, as it is India which will have to withdraw.
Since his assumption of office in 2004, "Manmohan Siqungh has looked towards a Pakistan settlement as one of the two cornerstones of his international legacy, the other being a close relationship with the United States," an official privy to the PM's thinking disclosed, adding that "he knows that time is running out for him, and that by next year, the country will be in election mode, so that bold initiatives would come afoul of politics". Those close to the PM hope that the BJP would support the PM's initiative and "follow the Vajpayee line, especially when L.K. Advani and Arun Jaitley are themselves in favour of a peace settlement with Pakistan, with only M.M. Joshi the odd man out".
The demilitarisation of Siachen on the basis of ironclad legal commitments by Pakistan, concurrent with an agreed settlement of the Sir Creek issue, is at the core of the PM's peace strategy, according to officials. They claim that the PM is in favour of "both a Siachen as well as a Sir Creek agreement", and that "these are doable in 2012 itself".
Teams of officials have been put to work on the contours of a possible settlement of these issues in advance of Manmohan Singh's suggested visit to Pakistan late this year. Interestingly, these officials say that "incoming Chief of Army Staff General-designate Bikramjit Singh is expected to take a holistic view of the situation" rather than "the narrow tactical view of some of his predecessors". It is pointed out that the incoming COAS is a protégé of former COAS General V.P. Malik, "who was fully on board Prime Minister Vajpayee's Lahore peace strategy". On Kashmir itself, "the Prime Minister favours soft borders" that would "provide easy access to Kashmiris from each side to the other". He is also "backing Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah's push for allowing reformed militants to return from their Pakistan Occupied Kashmir camps to their homes in the Kashmir valley," a strategy that "has the consent of Home Minister Chidambaram".
Sceptics, however, point out that retaining the Siachen base is important in the context of the China-Pakistan axis, a point that is disputed by the "peace" camp. An official's response was, "If Siachen were truly of military use in dealing with China, would the US be as insistent as it is in asking India to withdraw from the glacier? After all, the US' focus is on China." He claimed that "the international benefits of a withdrawal from Siachen would be immense, in that India would be shown to be willing to walk the extra mile for peace". This, he said, "would put the onus of reciprocity on the Pakistan Army, in a situation where its Kargil betrayal of 1999 proved to be short-sighted". Pakistan COAS Ashfaq Parvez Kayani has gone public in favour of a Siachen settlement based on demilitarisation of the glacier.
Other steps would include easier grant of visas, cultural and educational agreements and more business to business interaction between India and Pakistan. The PM's expectation is that "a multiplication of positive linkages, in business, media, sports, tourism and culture would create constituencies for peace that cannot be ignored", according to a senior official conversant with Dr Singh's peace strategy.
The expectation in Delhi is that a peace settlement between India and Pakistan would strengthen the civilian leadership vis-Ã -vis the military, thereby promoting a "culture of peace" in Pakistan. In the weeks ahead, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will be devoting increasing attention towards fulfilling his "legacy of peace" with Pakistan, with his proposed Pakistan visit as the "crowning glory" of his legacy, said an official.
Bikram Singh will help the Prime Minister reverse India's position on Siachen to ensure that Dr Singh can leave his 'peace mark' on Indo-Pak relations.
Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has put in place the full set of officials who will to support his desire to settle the Siachen dispute with Pakistan in a "Big Bang" visit across the border in a few months. The other dispute on the brink of resolution is Sir Creek. While the two nations have found a solution to Sir Creek, Siachen remains a problem because Indian Army chiefs starting from General A.S. Vaidya and continuing to General V.K. Singh have refused to support what they perceive will be a major concession to Pakistan, as it is India which will have to withdraw.
India occupied the disputed Siachen heights in 1984. Since then Pakistan has been trying to push India back through military force, and has failed. During the last five years, Pakistan has decided that what it could not win by war it can achieve through diplomacy as long as Dr Singh is PM. The Pakistan Army also sees the wisdom of forcing India back from its present line without the cost of conflict. Lt. Gen. Bikram Singh, the new Army chief, is expected to lead the reversal of the Army's position in order to help Dr Singh achieve his dream of leaving a "peace mark" on Indo-Pak relations.
Other key officials such as Principal Secretary Pulok Chatterjee and Foreign Secretary Ranjan Mathai are already on board, and willing. The PM also has the support of Home Minister P. Chidambaram. Defence Minister A.K. Antony is the only holdout, but could be pacified if Sonia Gandhi agrees to support Dr Singh on his Pak initiative.
{
Siachen remains a problem because Indian Army chiefs have refused to support what they perceive will be a major concession to Pakistan, as it is India which will have to withdraw.
Since his assumption of office in 2004, "Manmohan Siqungh has looked towards a Pakistan settlement as one of the two cornerstones of his international legacy, the other being a close relationship with the United States," an official privy to the PM's thinking disclosed, adding that "he knows that time is running out for him, and that by next year, the country will be in election mode, so that bold initiatives would come afoul of politics". Those close to the PM hope that the BJP would support the PM's initiative and "follow the Vajpayee line, especially when L.K. Advani and Arun Jaitley are themselves in favour of a peace settlement with Pakistan, with only M.M. Joshi the odd man out".
The demilitarisation of Siachen on the basis of ironclad legal commitments by Pakistan, concurrent with an agreed settlement of the Sir Creek issue, is at the core of the PM's peace strategy, according to officials. They claim that the PM is in favour of "both a Siachen as well as a Sir Creek agreement", and that "these are doable in 2012 itself".
Teams of officials have been put to work on the contours of a possible settlement of these issues in advance of Manmohan Singh's suggested visit to Pakistan late this year. Interestingly, these officials say that "incoming Chief of Army Staff General-designate Bikramjit Singh is expected to take a holistic view of the situation" rather than "the narrow tactical view of some of his predecessors". It is pointed out that the incoming COAS is a protégé of former COAS General V.P. Malik, "who was fully on board Prime Minister Vajpayee's Lahore peace strategy". On Kashmir itself, "the Prime Minister favours soft borders" that would "provide easy access to Kashmiris from each side to the other". He is also "backing Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah's push for allowing reformed militants to return from their Pakistan Occupied Kashmir camps to their homes in the Kashmir valley," a strategy that "has the consent of Home Minister Chidambaram".
Sceptics, however, point out that retaining the Siachen base is important in the context of the China-Pakistan axis, a point that is disputed by the "peace" camp. An official's response was, "If Siachen were truly of military use in dealing with China, would the US be as insistent as it is in asking India to withdraw from the glacier? After all, the US' focus is on China." He claimed that "the international benefits of a withdrawal from Siachen would be immense, in that India would be shown to be willing to walk the extra mile for peace". This, he said, "would put the onus of reciprocity on the Pakistan Army, in a situation where its Kargil betrayal of 1999 proved to be short-sighted". Pakistan COAS Ashfaq Parvez Kayani has gone public in favour of a Siachen settlement based on demilitarisation of the glacier.
Other steps would include easier grant of visas, cultural and educational agreements and more business to business interaction between India and Pakistan. The PM's expectation is that "a multiplication of positive linkages, in business, media, sports, tourism and culture would create constituencies for peace that cannot be ignored", according to a senior official conversant with Dr Singh's peace strategy.
The expectation in Delhi is that a peace settlement between India and Pakistan would strengthen the civilian leadership vis-Ã -vis the military, thereby promoting a "culture of peace" in Pakistan. In the weeks ahead, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will be devoting increasing attention towards fulfilling his "legacy of peace" with Pakistan, with his proposed Pakistan visit as the "crowning glory" of his legacy, said an official.
Bangalorean
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Same old useless cliches. "India must be large hearted", "India, being the bigger country, should be large-hearted in initiating a settlement", "India should take 'a bold initiative' to resolve the dispute".
Useless Pakis. Get some honesty and beseech India to bail you out, then we may consider something. Or we may not.
As long as you retain the typical Pakiness, there will be no compromise. Drain yourselves out.
Useless Pakis. Get some honesty and beseech India to bail you out, then we may consider something. Or we may not.
As long as you retain the typical Pakiness, there will be no compromise. Drain yourselves out.
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So much for their ghairat. When they cant win a fight, then talk with all kinds of emotions. Indira G spoiled them by giving all the spoils of war back over the table.
If india cant make offer then it should not put any other demand on any other issues with pakistan,be it 26/11,dawood,hafiz saeed or be it terrorism.
And from where it Ghairat came in here its simple negotiations on give n take. if you think its begging or lowers ghairat then sure it lowers ghairat of india too asking pakistan to move on terrorism,hafiz saeed,dawood etc issues.
Bangalorean
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"or be it terrorism"
I know you are a Jihad lover. Your entire country is swarming with Jihadi-loving scum.
I agree with you, that there should be no demand with useless nations like Pakisatan. We should do our worst to Pukes. Bleed the country, destroy it. Slowly and painfully.
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You still dont get it. There is nothing to give for Pak. Pakistan is nowhere on Siachen. India IS.
