Shove MRCA in favor of AMCA

Yusuf

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Lets not live in any illusion. The MCA is just a concept right now. Even the design is not finalized. There was a design in circulation for years before a new one just came up on Aero India. Im all for developing indigenous products, but shoving aside the MRCA for the MCA is going to hurt us very hard. The MRCAs will be midway into its induction when the MCAs first prototype comes up. That is if the government goes ahead with its development.
Our squad strength is down to 32 and will be to 28 in the next few years. We cannot take a chance with something thats just a concept.

The LCA is a completely different thing. Putting in an AESA, and other avionics, it can serve as a 4.5 gen aircraft for quite sometime. We can learn from this and get the MCA to add numbers later on. But again its a question of if. Remember that we are also committed to the PAKFA.
 

Pintu

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Dear, Shiv, please don't get in to the illusion, MCA is still in conceptual stage, only design is that get released, the date when MCA's first prototype rolls out for ground test, already the MRCA, inclusion will begin, and as what Yusuf says, I totally agree with him, our squadron strength will go down, actually our Squadron strength is 39.5 currently , to keep the combat edge, we will have to induct MRCA, we have two adversaries , that is China in north and Pakistan in West, we have to keep mind in that.
 

shiv

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well alright guys..you win,by the way i was only chasing a pipe dream.
you guys have made a wall around your selves you dont wanna come out off.
MODS please close down this thread
 

nitesh

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well alright guys..you win,by the way i was only chasing a pipe dream.
you guys have made a wall around your selves you dont wanna come out off.

MODS please close down this thread
Care to enlighten us and take us out of those mysterious walls that we built around.
 

shiv

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alright nitesh tell me why the MCA cannot be out by 2012-13 and what new tech we have to develop besides avionics and the aesa radar which we would be importing
 

vish

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shiv

Is MCA possible within 3 years? Yes.

What is the probability of this actually happening given we pull all stops and assume the most optimistic scenario? Not statistically significant.

Risk analysis matters when you are dealing with weapons procurement; the people in charge are doing it. Do they have their bias and vested interests, yes; but they are at it.

I do support the MCA but not at the expense of MRCA. If, however, MCA slows down MRCA, I'm not comfortable.
 

Yusuf

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The approval of MCA is going to only after the LCA proves it's worth which it will I'm sure. But that will be by 2012 or so and then only the work on MCA will start. I'm not sure it will get any funding before that. So if the work commences by 2012, we will not have a prototype before 2015. In that period we would have acquired significant numbers of the MRCA
 

shiv

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yusuf the work has already started,pranab mukherjee said the work has started on MCA in 2005.
 

SATISH

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Yes shiv...the model kept in AI 09 is a wind tunnel testing model. So work has started. But how long will it take?
 

shiv

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satish i cannot believe that in 4 years since the development began only the wind testing model is up,there is more to it then we know
 

SATISH

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Well have the ASR reached the ADA yet?....I dont think so. Well, There might be something...seeing is believing. Let the first Prototype roll out then we can speculate.
 

SATISH

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Shiv,
You need to understand, the MMRCA gives us a great Industrial base and a new exposure to modern western tech and their doctrine of operations. These guys develop their doctrine and design weapons for that. We on the other hand develop a doctrine and bastardize the existing weapons to fight with it. So we need a good insight into the doctrines and mode of operations between two different worlds.
 

Pintu

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Shiv , Satish is right, MMRCA will give us the exposure, that we want, it will give our very capable men, all the needed, and we will be gaining more by that in our long run, the conditions set is great that 100% TOT, license manufacturing permission is not that all, but the exposure is modern western tech will help us in long run to make our selves one day as a major player in the field of Combat aircraft manufacturing.

I am for MCA, and love to see it fly in our Air Force, but we can not shun MRCA.

Regards
 

nitesh

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alright nitesh tell me why the MCA cannot be out by 2012-13 and what new tech we have to develop besides avionics and the aesa radar which we would be importing
Ok shiv is the ASR's finalized for MCA? It's weapon mix identified? Do you have any clue about engines? Which avionics you are talking about?

Over and above do you really think it will be out even before PAK-FA
 

Soham

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Shiv,

I completely agree with you.
This thread should be locked. Its senseless.
 

Zoravar

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point of mrca is to counter force depletion .if we dont do that by 2013 our squadron level could be down even more.
 

StealthSniper

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but that makes it even more important to put money in making the plane soha

Even though I am not a big fan of the overall MMRCA plane selection (Mirage 2000 was my favorite) I think that we need the numbers and more importantly we will get alot of knowledge from buying these planes from foreign suppliers. We will be making a majority of the planes in India so we will gain important technical information that will help in the development of the MCA. All in all we need fighters NOW and on top of that this MMRCA order will help build up our infastructure to build sophisticated planes like MCA and others in the future.
 

Armand2REP

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But again its a question of if. Remember that we are also committed to the PAKFA.
Instead of cancelling MMRCA for MCA, perhaps India should cancel PAK FGFA for MCA. I see little reason to make a 24,000 crore down payment on a fighter with .5^m2 RCS which only allows India to work on the software, mission computer and fraction of the composites. India already has a strong grasp in composites and CAD to be able to come up with an equal if not better RCS. The first production craft can be equipped with Elta's AESA until India gets to where they need to be with MMRCA experience. ToT from Snecma on the uprated Kaveri would be finished by then so engines wouldn't be a problem. Indian advances in avionics are strong enough not to realise major hangups. Instead of shipping Indian R&D monies into Russia, better to let it be spent to develop Indian indigenous capabilities.
 

ppgj

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Instead of cancelling MMRCA for MCA, perhaps India should cancel PAK FGFA for MCA.
MCA will only start post LCA mark 2 being operational. right now it is only on the drawing board. MMRCA and PAKFA are operational and demo stage. both are far ahead of MCA. so neither needs to be cancelled. IAF is short on numbers and so all being operational will only add numbers and quality incrementally to make it up over a period of time.

I see little reason to make a 24,000 crore down payment on a fighter with .5^m2 RCS which only allows India to work on the software, mission computer and fraction of the composites.
you are running around with this figure like a gospel. you very well know these figures are not easily touted, in the least by MOD official.

india contributes where it is strong which will only increase as time goes by.

India already has a strong grasp in composites and CAD to be able to come up with an equal if not better RCS. The first production craft can be equipped with Elta's AESA until India gets to where they need to be with MMRCA experience.
india is trying its own radar with help from israel. may be by the time MCA comes out of the drawing board, it will be in place. right now to talk about MCA is unrealistic.

ToT from Snecma on the uprated Kaveri would be finished by then so engines wouldn't be a problem. Indian advances in avionics are strong enough not to realise major hangups. Instead of shipping Indian R&D monies into Russia, better to let it be spent to develop Indian indigenous capabilities.
india is already pretty good in avionics. and with MMRCA and PAKFA experience will be in a better position to operationalise MCA.
 

Armand2REP

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MCA will only start post LCA mark 2 being operational. right now it is only on the drawing board. MMRCA and PAKFA are operational and demo stage. both are far ahead of MCA. so neither needs to be cancelled. IAF is short on numbers and so all being operational will only add numbers and quality incrementally to make it up over a period of time.
Well, that recent article about FGFA says India may not get hers until as late as 2019. Given Russia's constant delays, it may well be into the 2020s, can India afford to tie up $5 billion to wait that long? Lets not forget the cost spiral US is having with their programme, Russia is bound to experience it too if not worse. I'm really worried that come 2017, India is going to be looking at a stalled project with Russia demanding billions more to develop it. It could be the "Gorshkov" of the aviation industry. At least with MCA, India would have control. Control is a nice thing to have, really nice.

you are running around with this figure like a gospel. you very well know these figures are not easily touted, in the least by MOD official.
I'm not going to argue anymore about the figure, but I still believe it.

india contributes where it is strong which will only increase as time goes by.
Russia doesn't care about India contributing except for cash money. They are trying as hard as they can to keep HAL out of all the critical components. The recent article gave a couple examples of how much disdain Russia has for India's R&D coming straight out of the mouth of their officials.

india is trying its own radar with help from israel. may be by the time MCA comes out of the drawing board, it will be in place. right now to talk about MCA is unrealistic.
While you are busy saying how unrealistic it is, you could be spending monies set aside for FGFA on your own R&D base. Most of the $5 billion is going to develop Russia, not India.

india is already pretty good in avionics. and with MMRCA and PAKFA experience will be in a better position to operationalise MCA.
I'm not going to say you will not be in a better position, but you have to look at the dates and the money spent for your own R&D prospects. 24,000 crore would go a long way to developing your own testing facilities, you could build better than Russia several times over again with that kind of capital infusion. If Russia gets delayed or faces cost overuns, scrapping it for an advanced MCA schedule would be the wiser choice. I know India likes to say money isn't a problem, but it really doesn't grow on trees. 24,000 crore is alot of money to anyone.
 

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