Scientists reconstruct faces of Indus Valley people

Ikariyasan

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This appears to be based on the model where Andronovo people migrated to BMAC and mixed with local population. Later these fellows migrated into SWAT valley and further in.


Which is contrary to narsimham paper that concluded BMAC has negligible contribution to Indian ancestry. So from where did the high steppe ancestry in certain groups like rors and Jats come from.

Either directly from Andronovo or later migrations or they could very well be a part of Harappan population.


I mean at its peak IVC had 5 million inhabitants. How many skeletons unearthed ..... Around 1000 ..... How many have been successfully analysed....only 1.


Now witzel is talking about waves of Indo-Iranian migrations between 2000bce-1500bce and Indo-Aryans to 1500bce.

They are even calling Sinauli as a proof of Indo Iranian migration.
I am not an expert but I do am a member of a message board where people discuss population genetics in a neutral and scientific way. The knowledgeable people there agree on one thing that Narshimmhan got that one thing wrong, we do have BMAC ancestry. Steppe MLBA people are thought to have trading relations with them and possibly admired with them too. That is one of the possible explanations of Jatts having high frequency of L1a2 (BMAC specific subclades) despite having highest Steppe levels in India.
 

Ikariyasan

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I am not an expert but I do am a member of a message board where people discuss population genetics in a neutral and scientific way. The knowledgeable people there agree on one thing that Narshimmhan got that one thing wrong, we do have BMAC ancestry. Steppe MLBA people are thought to have trading relations with them and possibly admired with them too. That is one of the possible explanations of Jatts having high frequency of L1a2 (BMAC specific subclades) despite having highest Steppe levels in India.
*admired not admired lol.
 

Indo-Aryan

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I understand that there are complex sentiments regarding identity and religion, also there are sociopolitical implications, but I think we should stop viewing this issue the lens of religion and nationalism, when the world has come so far into the Ancient DNA revolution.
No one is saying that Indians owe their culture or ancestry to Europeans (we just SHARE some ancestry with them and Middle Easterners, I.e. some populations contributed to both us and them). India of today like everywhere else in the world is result of complex migration and admixture events.
Yes I do agree that Indians are mixed population. But I don't agree with CHRONOLOGY.

In an ocean of many unknowns we can't claim Aryans Migration or Invasion as fact.

Till a week ago it was believed horse domestication and invention of spoke wheel lead to rapid spread of Indo-European languages.

But recent paper revealed domestication of horses came later which disproved half of this Kurgan theory.


Similarly White Tarim mummies were being used as an evidence of Blond white Indo Iranian migration down South but this paper revealed them to be a very ancient genetically isolated group.

 

Indo-Aryan

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I am not an expert but I do am a member of a message board where people discuss population genetics in a neutral and scientific way. The knowledgeable people there agree on one thing that Narshimmhan got that one thing wrong, we do have BMAC ancestry. Steppe MLBA people are thought to have trading relations with them and possibly admired with them too. That is one of the possible explanations of Jatts having high frequency of L1a2 (BMAC specific subclades) despite having highest Steppe levels in India.
I am also not an expert 🙄

My hunger for truth seeking has led me on this journey which is 8 years old now.

See that's what I am talking about, An ocean full of unknowns, lies, fabrications, misrepresentations and hidden truths.
 

Ikariyasan

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Yes I do agree that Indians are mixed population. But I don't agree with CHRONOLOGY.

In an ocean of many unknowns we can't claim Aryans Migration or Invasion as fact.

Till a week ago it was believed horse domestication and invention of spoke wheel lead to rapid spread of Indo-European languages.

But recent paper revealed domestication of horses came later which disproved half of this Kurgan theory.


Similarly White Tarim mummies were being used as an evidence of Blond white Indo Iranian migration down South but this paper revealed them to be a very ancient genetically isolated group.

I admit I know nothing about horse domestication but I have heard people discussing that findings weren't beyond expectations but they were discussing possible scenarios.
Tarim mummies were indeed a surprise. If I am not mistaken they were darker skinned but had europoid features. Some people were saying that this confirms that ANE were mostly had a Europid phenotype.
I guess you are already aware of it but ANE are an ancient population (Paleolithic probably) who contributed to the formation of various western Eurasian population eg. IranN , EHG (the major component in early steppe ancestry before they admired with EEF), etc.
Interesting thing is there is a surplus of ANE ancestry in South Asians which inflates steppe component for us in those calculator runs. Either there was a pre IVC and pre IA ANE migration into South Asia or the variant of Iran N which contributed to us was richer in ANE than the currently known ancients (Ganj Dareh Neolithic and others).
 

Ikariyasan

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I am also not an expert 🙄

My hunger for truth seeking has led me on this journey which is 8 years old now.

See that's what I am talking about, An ocean full of unknowns, lies, fabrications, misrepresentations and hidden truths.
People would not agree with me but scientists involved in population genetics tend to highly anti-racist and politically correct. So, I don't think there is some conspiracy against us, but the whole world is eagerly waiting for Neolithic, Paleolithic ancient dna from South Asia. AASI is one of only remaining unresolved nodes in the human family tree, as you know it hasn't been found in unadmixed form yet but someone from that form has made simulated AASI co-ordinates (for G25 calculator) and those work fine except highly elevating steppe ancestry (for me atleast).
 

Indo-Aryan

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I admit I know nothing about horse domestication but I have heard people discussing that findings weren't beyond expectations but they were discussing possible scenarios.
Tarim mummies were indeed a surprise. If I am not mistaken they were darker skinned but had europoid features. Some people were saying that this confirms that ANE were mostly had a Europid phenotype.
I guess you are already aware of it but ANE are an ancient population (Paleolithic probably) who contributed to the formation of various western Eurasian population eg. IranN , EHG (the major component in early steppe ancestry before they admired with EEF), etc.
Interesting thing is there is a surplus of ANE ancestry in South Asians which inflates steppe component for us in those calculator runs. Either there was a pre IVC and pre IA ANE migration into South Asia or the variant of Iran N which contributed to us was richer in ANE than the currently known ancients (Ganj Dareh Neolithic and others).
No clear cut conclusion.

At the end of the day if we follow Human migration model 2 then Humans migrated to Central Siberia around 25000bce from East Asia who in turn came from South Asia and in turn came from Africa.

images.png


ANE could very well be descendants of these early migrants.

Interestingly the West and Central European Humans who arrived in Europe around 40000 BP were majorly replaced by these ANE+WSH+EHG from Eurasian steppes.

ANE were Ancient Asians but then Euro-centric folk call them Proto-European.
 

Indo-Aryan

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Surrounded by speakers of Indo-European, Dravidian and Tibeto-Burman languages, around 11 million Munda (a branch of Austroasiatic language family) speakers live in the densely populated and genetically diverse South Asia. Their genetic makeup holds components characteristic of South Asians as well as Southeast Asians. The admixture time between these components has been previously estimated on the basis of archaeology, linguistics and uniparental markers. Using genome-wide genotype data of 102 Munda speakers and contextual data from South and Southeast Asia, we retrieved admixture dates between 2000–3800 years ago for different populations of Munda. The best modern proxies for the source populations for the admixture with proportions 0.29/0.71 are Lao people from Laos and Dravidian speakers from Kerala in India. The South Asian population(s), with whom the incoming Southeast Asians intermixed, had a smaller proportion of West Eurasian genetic component than contemporary proxies. Somewhat surprisingly Malaysian Peninsular tribes rather than the geographically closer Austroasiatic languages speakers like Vietnamese and Cambodians show highest sharing of IBD segments with the Munda. In addition, we affirmed that the grouping of the Munda speakers into North and South Munda based on linguistics is in concordance with genome-wide data.

 

Ikariyasan

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No clear cut conclusion.

At the end of the day if we follow Human migration model 2 then Humans migrated to Central Siberia around 25000bce from East Asia who in turn came from South Asia and in turn came from Africa.

View attachment 117038

ANE could very well be descendants of these early migrants.

Interestingly the West and Central European Humans who arrived in Europe around 40000 BP were majorly replaced by these ANE+WSH+EHG from Eurasian steppes.

ANE were Ancient Asians but then Euro-centric folk call them Proto-European.
Yeah bro, all sort of ethno centrists ruin these discussions with their biases.
For ancient components- we tend to think them as pure, but they themselves are result of mixing together of even more older populations.
I think Prof. Reich said something along the lines of- the ancient people were as different from one another as the people of today are (e.g. Europeans vs east asians), only the fault lines were different.
For the people new into this-
ANE (Ancient North Eurasians) have an interesting discovery story. Studying the mutation frequencies of various modern populations scientist came to an unexpected conclusion. Based on the findings scientists predicted a 'ghost population' whose westward migration and mixing with various populations resulted in the formation of various west Eurasian populations...
ALSO their eastward migration and mixing with ancient Siberian population resulted in the genesis of Native Americans! Infact the ANE ancestry today peaks in an South American tribe- Karitiana.
IIRC a year later remains were found whose genetic profile matched with the predicted 'ghost population' , this was the Malta Boy/MA1 and he had the y haplogroup of basal R*.
ANEs ended up contributing mostly to west eurasians (Europeans, Near Easterners, West Eurasian component of South Asians) and Native Americans. East Asians of today have little to no ANE.
East Asians have their own genetic history and it is equally clusterf*ck as that of West eurasians 😆.
 

Indo-Aryan

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11 of the 12 IVC samples were detected in Iran and Turkmenistan from 2500bce-2000bce.

How many samples do we have of completely distinct unmixed group of People from Steppes into India?

I am hopeful something comes out of the Sinauli skeletons.

I have found none. If you come across any such data point or research paper please share.
 
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Indo-Aryan

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What little I have found over the weeks is:

SWAT valley samples have returned very minor amounts of R1a (3 out of 44) that too from Iron Age 1000bce.

What to make of it?
 

Ikariyasan

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11 of the 12 IVC samples were detected in Iran and Turkmenistan from 2500bce-2000bce.

How many samples do we have of completely distinct unmixed group of People from Steppes into India?

I am hopeful something comes out of the Sinauli skeletons.

I have found none. If you come across any such data point or research paper please share.
I think it unlikely to find unadmixed Steppe MLBA samples in South Asia. First appearance of steppe ancestry in South Central Asia is with those BMAC outliers (e.g. Gonur outlier).
Those Iron Age Swat samples (SGPT? PGW?) marks the first appearance of Steppe MLBA ancestry in South Asia. But apparently they are too steppe deficient to be proto Indo Aryans. Also their haplogroups do not match (they are characterized by steppe related mitochondrial haplogroups instead of Y ones). But they appear to be ancestral to some NW Indian 'biradri' populations - e.g. Khatri, Arora.
Yeah, you are right we need more and proper ancient DNA from South Asia to make things clear, but unfortunately the climate here is unforgiving to the DNA.
 

Ikariyasan

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What little I have found over the weeks is:

SWAT valley samples have returned very minor amounts of R1a (3 out of 44) that too from Iron Age 1000bce.

What to make of it?
Some people were even saying that they might not be Indo Aryan speakers at all, probably ones having contact with them.
 

Indo-Aryan

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This is how it started

800px-Yamnaya-related_migrations.jpg


This is how it's going

images (12).jpeg


Previous claim - Indo-Iranian split somewhere around Afghanistan around 1700bce. Aryan speakers invaded India, Iranian languages moved into Iran.

New Claim - Proto-Indo-Iranian started migrating from 2000bce-1500bce into South Asia on ox ridden carts only to be absorbed by Horse riding Aryans in 1500bce

😅
 

Indo-Aryan

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With absolutely no clarity on:

Who were these II migrants?
Where did they descend from?
What culture they brought?
What languages did they speak?

What was their relation to Horse riding Aryans? How distinct they were from them? And did this split happen in Afghanistan or did it happen somewhere in Sinauli from where these Aryans migrated West into Iran like Parsu (Persians), Dhruyu etc.
 

Ikariyasan

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This is how it started

View attachment 117074

This is how it's going

View attachment 117075

Previous claim - Indo-Iranian split somewhere around Afghanistan around 1700bce. Aryan speakers invaded India, Iranian languages moved into Iran.

New Claim - Proto-Indo-Iranian started migrating from 2000bce-1500bce into South Asia on ox ridden carts only to be absorbed by Horse riding Aryans in 1500bce

😅
Yeah bro theories keep changing with new findings and we should be open to that.
BTW have you read that Dzuzuana paper. It postulates about common/core west Eurasian ancestry. It still is in preprint stage and likely will have significant changes in the final publication, but it sure is very interesting.
 

Indo-Aryan

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Yeah bro theories keep changing with new findings and we should be open to that.
BTW have you read that Dzuzuana paper. It postulates about common/core west Eurasian ancestry. It still is in preprint stage and likely will have significant changes in the final publication, but it sure is very interesting.
Nope. Any preliminary articles or discussions to read?

I am waiting for Niraj Rais paper for past 2 years 😫
 

Ikariyasan

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With absolutely no clarity on:

Who were these II migrants?
Where did they descend from?
What culture they brought?
What languages did they speak?

What was their relation to Horse riding Aryans? How distinct they were from them? And did this split happen in Afghanistan or did it happen somewhere in Sinauli from where these Aryans migrated West into Iran like Parsu (Persians), Dhruyu etc.
Yeah bro , Sanauli paper should answer a lot of questions. Don't kill me for this but there is also a possibility (just a possibility)that those sanauli people were IVC related folks with their baila gadis.
Though Twitter is an unreliable hellhole someone was claiming that the Sanauli skeletons did not yield high quality DNA😢.
 

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