Scientists reconstruct faces of Indus Valley people

Indo-Aryan

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Seems like Iranian HG component was quite large compared to Indian HG among Harappan related people from Harappa Iran and Turkmenistan.

Anywhere between 50%-95% Iranian HG
How likely the language spoken by Harappans were closer to Iranian HG than Indian HG.

It's interesting/funny because Andamanese or AASI is considered Indian HG as per these reports but if I am not wrong Andamanese don't speak Dravidian language.
 

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Artefacts of this culture (OCP) show similarities with both the Late Harappan culture and the Vedic culture.

Any idea which artefacts they are talking about?
 

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Make what you want to make of it 😑



In this project, initiated by Professor Michael Nothnagel from the Cologne Center for Genomics (CCG) at the University of Cologne and Professor Hossein Najmabadi from the Genetics Research Center (GRC) at the University of Social Welfare and Rehabilitation Science in Tehran, their groups cooperated with numerous other universities in Iran, while Professor Barbara Helwing from Sydney provided expertise on Iran's historical background.

The researchers analysed the genetic data of 1,021 volunteers whose parents and grandparents identified themselves as belonging to one of eleven selected Iranian ethnic groups, including large groups such as Iranian Persians and Azeri, but also smaller ones like Arabs, Baluchi, Gilaki and Kurds. These volunteers were sampled all over Iran. They found out that Iranian Persians and Kurds, for example, exhibit high in-group genetic variation which is larger than that of, for example, Germans. However, the entire gene pool has remained largely unchanged over at least the past 5,000 years, but probably rather the past 10,000 years.

To put this in perspective: Today's German population has likely retained only about 10 to 20 percent of the genetic constitution of the hunters and gatherers who populated western and central Europe 10,000 years ago. Furthermore, Britons and North Italians are genetically more similar than some ethnic groups in Iran. 'This was somewhat surprising,' Michael Nothnagel said. 'Until recently, many scientists had assumed genetic variation across present-day Iranians to be rather homogeneous.'
 

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Mittani palace excavation

The remains of the palace conserved to a height of about seven meters. According to Dr. Ivana Puljiz, the two usage phases are clearly noticeable, indicating that the building has been in use for a very long time. Archaeologists unearthed several rooms inside the palace and partially reviewed eight of them. They also uncovered big, fired bricks that were used as floor slabs in some places. Ten cuneiform clay tablets belonged to Mittani people and were translated by Betina Faist of Heidelberg University. According to one of the tablets, Kemune was probably the ancient city of Zakhiku. Well-preserved wall paintings were also found in some rooms, which are two meters thick and more than two meters high.
 

Indo-Aryan

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How likely the ritualistic character of Harappans were similar to Yajna?

Could explain lack of Temple structures 😉
 

Vamsi

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How likely the ritualistic character of Harappans were similar to Yajna?

Could explain lack of Temple structures 😉
There are basically 3 types of fire altars used in Yajna, they are Square shaped, semi-circular and circular shape. All three types were found in IVC sites. Also the ratios of those altars , for example the square shaped altar has a ratio of 5:4 , the same ratio is mentioned in sulbha sutras . Sulbha sutras is a book which explains how to construct fire altars, and that book is used even today
 

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There is no doubt among opposing scholars that Harappans (3300bce-1200bce) moved from Indus Valley into Gangetic plains.

With their movement they brought culture and language. So which language did Harappans brought with them into the Gangetic plains?
 

Indo-Aryan

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Scholars who theorize Harappan language to be Dravidian or Munda.


If Harappans were Dravidian or Munda speakers then why did the language transformed into Prakrits in North, Munda in Central-East India and Dravidian in South.

😫
 

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If you are telling me white skinned genetically European named Divodasa and Sudasa led a cultural change of India ......

We need to arrange an appointment for both of us x_x
 

Ikariyasan

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Scholars who theorize Harappan language to be Dravidian or Munda.


If Harappans were Dravidian or Munda speakers then why did the language transformed into Prakrits in North, Munda in Central-East India and Dravidian in South.

😫
If I am not mistaken prakrits are the descend from Sanskrit. Dravidian languages descend from proto-Dravidian. Dravidian farming midcastes (reddy, karma etc) and castes like Gujrati Patels are like direct descendents those IVC people (mostly Iran N + SA HG/ AASI+ some ANF with little to no Indo-Aryan ancestry).
 

Indo-Aryan

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If I am not mistaken prakrits are the descend from Sanskrit. Dravidian languages descend from proto-Dravidian. Dravidian farming midcastes (reddy, karma etc) and castes like Gujrati Patels are like direct descendents those IVC people (mostly Iran N + SA HG/ AASI+ some ANF with little to no Indo-Aryan ancestry).
Yes but that would mean Harappans spoke or learnt Sanskrit/Proto-Sanskrit from steppe people (both arguments in absence of evidence is hard to digest).

By the time they moved to Gangetic plains the language transformed into Prakrits.

Another data point to keep in mind is that in the recorded history, Sanskrit was never the language of masses. It was the language of high culture and elites.

In absence of genetic evidence that would be outlandish claim.

We have just 1 female ancestry reported from Rakhigariand rest 11 are from far away places in Iran and Turkmenistan. Based on this we have concluded that Harappans who occupied a very large territory were Iranian HG + Indian HG from 4000bce to 2000bce and WSH ancestry magically entered only after 2000bce.

An outrageous claim!

Till we extract more dna from all Harappan sites from pre post and Harappan times any thing said is just a theory.

Andronovo are theorized to be Indo-Iranian without any epigraphical evidence.

Modern Indians are a mix of Iranian HG + Indian HG + WSH with East Asian ancestry in Eastern India.
 

Indo-Aryan

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Bhiranna and Mehargarh date to 8th millennium bce much before the proposed mixing of Iranian HG and Indian HG.

Mixing of Iranian and Indian HG happened post 4500bce

Then who were these people?
 

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Extent of Indus Valley Civilization

The centre of the civilization was in Sind and Punjab in undivided India, from this center the civilization spread towards all direction.

In West the last extent is seaboard of South Baluchistan at the Suktagendor which can be called its western border.

In east Alamagirpur in Uttar Pradesh (District Meerut) can be called its Eastern Border.

In North it extended up to Manda in Jammu & Kashmir

and in south it extended up to Bhagvatrav in Narmada Estuary of Gujarat.

However, later at Diamabad (District Ahamed Nagar Maharashtra) was the site where four figurines of Bronze on the bank of Pravara River found.

This pushed the civilization’s extension in further south.Indus civilization remnants have been discovered from as far south as Mumbai in Maharashtra State.
 

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In smaller sized civilizations of Mesopotamia multiple languages were spoken.

So did the Harappans closer to Maharashtra spoke the same language as those in Trading outpost on the oxus river.
 

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Pottery graffiti at Bhirrana show "mermaid" type deities and dancing girls; the latter have a posture similar to Mohenjo-daro's bronze "dancing girls" that the archaeologist L.S. Rao stated that "it appears that the craftsman of Bhirrana had first-hand knowledge of the former."These deities or dancing girls may represent apsaras, or water nymphs, associated with water rites once widespread in the Indus Valley civilisation.

Is that what they are talking about?
images (10).jpeg


Is that really a mermaid 😇
 

Ikariyasan

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Yes but that would mean Harappans spoke or learnt Sanskrit/Proto-Sanskrit from steppe people (both arguments in absence of evidence is hard to digest).

By the time they moved to Gangetic plains the language transformed into Prakrits.

Another data point to keep in mind is that in the recorded history, Sanskrit was never the language of masses. It was the language of high culture and elites.

In absence of genetic evidence that would be outlandish claim.

We have just 1 female ancestry reported from Rakhigariand rest 11 are from far away places in Iran and Turkmenistan. Based on this we have concluded that Harappans who occupied a very large territory were Iranian HG + Indian HG from 4000bce to 2000bce and WSH ancestry magically entered only after 2000bce.

An outrageous claim!

Till we extract more dna from all Harappan sites from pre post and Harappan times any thing said is just a theory.

Andronovo are theorized to be Indo-Iranian without any epigraphical evidence.

Modern Indians are a mix of Iranian HG + Indian HG + WSH with East Asian ancestry in Eastern India.
Rakhigarhi woman was virtually indistinguishable from Indus periphery cluster.
Those Shahr-I-Shokhta (SIS BA2 & BA3) people are believed to be migrants from IVC. South Asians broadly are a mixture of -
1)South Asian hunter gatherers/AASI- a deeply divergent east Eurasian population ( the Andamanese people are very distant cousin of them).
2) IVC (Iranian Neolithic Farmers + AASI with some WSHG (western Siberian Hgs))
3) Indo Aryans (Steppe MLBA + BMAC+ WSHG).

If you want to study about Ancient DNA revolution Dr.David Reich's book is a good starting point ( though it is very outdated by this point).
 

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This and other discoveries established the presence of an unbroken cultural sequence at Bhirrana: from the Hakra ware culture and its evolution into early Harappan, early Mature Harappan and Mature Harappan until the site was abandoned.
 

Indo-Aryan

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Rakhigarhi woman was virtually indistinguishable from Indus periphery cluster.
Those Shahr-I-Shokhta (SIS BA2 & BA3) people are believed to be migrants from IVC. South Asians broadly are a mixture of -
1)South Asian hunter gatherers/AASI- a deeply divergent east Eurasian population ( the Andamanese people are very distant cousin of them).
2) IVC (Iranian Neolithic Farmers + AASI with some WSHG (western Siberian Hgs))
3) Indo Aryans (Steppe MLBA + BMAC+ WSHG).

If you want to study about Ancient DNA revolution Dr.David Reich's book is a good starting point ( though it is very outdated by this point).
This appears to be based on the model where Andronovo people migrated to BMAC and mixed with local population. Later these fellows migrated into SWAT valley and further in.


Which is contrary to narsimham paper that concluded BMAC has negligible contribution to Indian ancestry. So from where did the high steppe ancestry in certain groups like rors and Jats come from.

Either directly from Andronovo or later migrations or they could very well be a part of Harappan population.


I mean at its peak IVC had 5 million inhabitants. How many skeletons unearthed ..... Around 1000 ..... How many have been successfully analysed....only 1.


Now witzel is talking about waves of Indo-Iranian migrations between 2000bce-1500bce and Indo-Aryans to 1500bce.

They are even calling Sinauli as a proof of Indo Iranian migration.
 

Ikariyasan

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I understand that there are complex sentiments regarding identity and religion, also there are sociopolitical implications, but I think we should stop viewing this issue the lens of religion and nationalism, when the world has come so far into the Ancient DNA revolution.
No one is saying that Indians owe their culture or ancestry to Europeans (we just SHARE some ancestry with them and Middle Easterners, I.e. some populations contributed to both us and them). India of today like everywhere else in the world is result of complex migration and admixture events.
 

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