Akim
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The Ukrainians liberated more territory in a month than the Russians captured in six months.
Russia Ukraine War 2022
- Thread starter WARREN SS
- Start date
ww2historian
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I stand corrected, you're 100% correct. After you're idiot leader Zelensky blew up that dam, you now can claim that dried out river bank and reservoir as Ukrainian land.
Akim
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Craigs
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Where are the Challies? Haven't seen them in battle yet.
Blademaster
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Fucking hypocrites. Did they do the same thing to the US when US invaded Iraq? Or attacked Libya and Syria?
Russia, Belarus not officially invited to 2024 Paris Olympics, IOC says
The International Olympic Committee announced Thursday that Russia and Belarus will not be sent official invitations later this month ahead of the 2024 Paris Olympics.www.foxnews.com
Russia, Belarus not officially invited to 2024 Paris Olympics
blackjack
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>BayrACKtars
>Javelins
>NLAWs
>Shartstreak
>M777
>M109
>M113
>Switchblades
>WAS/WERES
>PzH2000
>AS-90
>CAESAR
>Krab
>Warsaw Pact tanks and airplanes
>JDAM-ER
>Killer kayaks
>Gepards
>Storm Shadow the Hedgehog
>Patriots
>MBRAPSs
>Maxxxpro
>HMMWV
>Strykyirs
>IRIS-T
>NASAM
>NATO training
>John Deere
>Leopard 2
>Bradleys
>Bergepanzer III
>2 killed and 5 wounded close family members and friends on average
>CV90
>Cluster munitions
You are here
>ATACMS
>Challengers
>Abrams
>Merkavas
>F-16s
>The last Ukrainian
>A-10s
>"Coalition of the willing" meatwave
>Nimitz aircraft carrier
>Das Boot
>Javelins
>NLAWs
>Shartstreak
>M777
>M109
>M113
>Switchblades
>WAS/WERES
>PzH2000
>AS-90
>CAESAR
>Krab
>Warsaw Pact tanks and airplanes
>JDAM-ER
>Killer kayaks
>Gepards
>Storm Shadow the Hedgehog
>Patriots
>MBRAPSs
>Maxxxpro
>HMMWV
>Strykyirs
>IRIS-T
>NASAM
>NATO training
>John Deere
>Leopard 2
>Bradleys
>Bergepanzer III
>2 killed and 5 wounded close family members and friends on average
>CV90
>Cluster munitions
You are here
>ATACMS
>Challengers
>Abrams
>Merkavas
>F-16s
>The last Ukrainian
>A-10s
>"Coalition of the willing" meatwave
>Nimitz aircraft carrier
>Das Boot
Sarjen
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Yet, Nazis can’t do shit
ww2historian
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It didn't go too well.
Bloomberg
NATO Is Papering Over the Cracks After Zelenskiy Loses His Cool
July 12, 2023 at 11:30 AM EDT
Listen
6:18
Volodymyr Zelenskiy was running hot ahead of his sit-down with NATO leaders on Tuesday evening.
The Ukrainian president had been angered earlier in the day by what he said was an “absurd” reluctance to give his country a clear timeline on membership.
That outburst in turn riled the partners who have funneled billions of dollars of weaponry and aid into Ukraine’s defense against the Russian invasion — the US had been given no warning before Zelenskiy unleashed his attack on social media.
Over dinner in Vilnius, with US President Joe Biden back at his hotel, the other leaders delivered a clear message to Zelenskiy, according to one person who was present.
You have to cool down and look at the full package, Zelenskiy was told. He had, after all, been given a renewed commitment to eventual membership and new security guarantees from the Group of Seven nations. By the next day, the message appeared to be sinking in.
“Whether we like it or not, people want to see gratitude,” UK Defense Secretary Ben Wallace told reporters the following morning. “You’re persuading countries to give up their stock” of weapons and ammunition, he added.
This account of the behind-the-scenes wrangling is based on interviews with more than a dozen diplomats and officials involved in the summit who asked not to be named discussing private conversations.
NATO leaders were trying to thread a needle on Ukraine’s membership bid when they arrived in Vilnius: They were seeking language that looked like progress and that Ukraine could sell as progress but fundamentally didn’t leave them any closer to getting dragged into a war with nuclear-armed Russia.
‘Political Will’
Added to that, they were dealing with a Ukrainian government operating under the intense pressure of the war and whose expectations weren’t always in line with political reality as seen from the alliance.
“I understand the Ukrainians’ frustration,” Estonian Foreign Minister Margus Tsahkna said in an interview.
In the days running up to the summit, diplomats sympathetic to Ukraine had been insisting that Kyiv was making realistic demands on the issue of membership. But the Ukrainian administration’s public comments suggested otherwise.
Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba said in an interview with Bloomberg Television on Tuesday that Ukraine has been hoping to receive a formal invitation to join NATO at the summit, even if membership, and the collective defensive commitments that come with it, would only be formalized after the war ends. That was never going to happen, other diplomats said.
“There was a lack of political will,” Kuleba told Bloomberg Television’s Annmarie Hordern.
WATCH: Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba says Ukraine was hoping for an invitation to NATO.
Crucially, it was the US and Germany that insisted on dialing back the commitment to Ukraine joining the alliance. Earlier drafts of the communique offered a clearer pathway to Ukraine eventually joining, but Biden and Chancellor Olaf Scholz were wary of going too far.
Their teams demanded changes in the final days before the summit, upsetting lots of the other European nations, as well as the Ukrainians.
When Biden landed in Vilnius on Monday evening, the language on the membership path was still not nailed down. The next day, the Ukrainian team heard that the text was close to settled and they weren’t going to like it. They decided to send the provocative tweet, in an effort to jolt the debate back in their favor.
The post certainly captured the attention of the negotiators, but its effect was counterproductive.
The Americans were particularly irritated. The British intervened in an effort to calm the situation while the Germans also tried to come up with alternatives.
As the situation threatened to come off the rails, Zelenskiy’s chief of staff, Andriy Yermak, called US National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, but the text was approved anyway before the Ukrainians arrived.
When Zelenskiy did get to the summit, he was met by frank criticism from several other leaders, who made it clear that he’d overstepped the mark.
The concern among Kyiv’s more ardent supporters was that the allies were going to repeat the mistake of 2008 when a vague commitment to Ukrainian membership proved a provocation to Russia without offering sufficient protection against military aggression.
“By attaching two conditionalities to Ukraine’s membership that didn’t exist before, NATO is giving the impression of a cold shoulder to Ukraine,” said Kristine Berzina, a geopolitical analyst at the German Marshall Fund in Washington. “It undoes the work NATO agreed the night before, reaching an agreement on Sweden’s bid, and it dampens the other very pro-Ukrainian and very rough Russia language in the summit communique.”
Some of those insisting on caution recall the history of European wars and, in particular, the way nations were dragged into long-running conflicts during the early part of the last century.
There’s also the complexity of how the war in Ukraine might end and the possibility that it will leave parts of Ukraine’s territory in dispute and occupied by Russian forces. Some diplomats were concerned that a clear commitment to triggering NATO membership would complicate any eventual negotiations.
But there was also a collective understanding of the need to project unity.
Zelenskiy “was never alone” at the dinner, Latvian Prime Minister Krisjanis Karins said in another Bloomberg Television interview. “There was no animosity, everybody was speaking a similar language.”
The alliance “will not take in any country during a war, because that would put NATO immediately in a war,” he added.
Zelenskiy still seemed frosty as he headed into a meeting with Scholz on Wednesday morning, especially by comparison with the UK’s Rishi Sunak — one of Ukraine’s more enthusiastic cheerleaders — and Mark Rutte of the Netherlands, who’s been spearheading efforts to train Ukrainian pilots on F-16 fighter jets to the Ukrainian air force.
By that stage, diplomats on both sides were framing Zelenskiy’s outburst the previous day as a familiar maneuver designed to raise the stakes in a negotiation, a move that has paid off in the past, but this time did not — the Ukrainian president had repeatedly threatened not to show up in the weeks leading up to the summit.
When he spoke to reporters around midday, Zelenskiy’s tone had shifted.
“We understand some are afraid to talk about our membership in NATO now because they are afraid of the global war,” Zelenskiy told reporters. Ukraine accepts that it can only join “when it will be safe on our land,” he added.
Then he said he wanted to include “words of gratitude” for the steps taken by allies, peppering his comments with that word — “gratitude.”
“We’re going to make sure that you get what you need,” Biden said standing alongside Zelenskiy later on Wednesday, wearing a tie in the Ukrainian colors. “And I look forward to the day we’re having the meeting to celebrate your official, official membership in NATO.”
— With Natalia Ojewska, Kitty Donaldson, Andra Timu, Maria Tadeo, Arne Delfs, Alberto Nardelli, and Daryna Krasnolutska
Bloomberg
NATO Is Papering Over the Cracks After Zelenskiy Loses His Cool
- Ukrainian team angered by lack of clarity on NATO timeline
- Leaders spent Wednesday cleaning up after Zelenskiy’s outburst
July 12, 2023 at 11:30 AM EDT
Listen
6:18
Volodymyr Zelenskiy was running hot ahead of his sit-down with NATO leaders on Tuesday evening.
The Ukrainian president had been angered earlier in the day by what he said was an “absurd” reluctance to give his country a clear timeline on membership.
That outburst in turn riled the partners who have funneled billions of dollars of weaponry and aid into Ukraine’s defense against the Russian invasion — the US had been given no warning before Zelenskiy unleashed his attack on social media.
Over dinner in Vilnius, with US President Joe Biden back at his hotel, the other leaders delivered a clear message to Zelenskiy, according to one person who was present.
You have to cool down and look at the full package, Zelenskiy was told. He had, after all, been given a renewed commitment to eventual membership and new security guarantees from the Group of Seven nations. By the next day, the message appeared to be sinking in.
“Whether we like it or not, people want to see gratitude,” UK Defense Secretary Ben Wallace told reporters the following morning. “You’re persuading countries to give up their stock” of weapons and ammunition, he added.
This account of the behind-the-scenes wrangling is based on interviews with more than a dozen diplomats and officials involved in the summit who asked not to be named discussing private conversations.
NATO leaders were trying to thread a needle on Ukraine’s membership bid when they arrived in Vilnius: They were seeking language that looked like progress and that Ukraine could sell as progress but fundamentally didn’t leave them any closer to getting dragged into a war with nuclear-armed Russia.
‘Political Will’
Added to that, they were dealing with a Ukrainian government operating under the intense pressure of the war and whose expectations weren’t always in line with political reality as seen from the alliance.
“I understand the Ukrainians’ frustration,” Estonian Foreign Minister Margus Tsahkna said in an interview.
In the days running up to the summit, diplomats sympathetic to Ukraine had been insisting that Kyiv was making realistic demands on the issue of membership. But the Ukrainian administration’s public comments suggested otherwise.
Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba said in an interview with Bloomberg Television on Tuesday that Ukraine has been hoping to receive a formal invitation to join NATO at the summit, even if membership, and the collective defensive commitments that come with it, would only be formalized after the war ends. That was never going to happen, other diplomats said.
“There was a lack of political will,” Kuleba told Bloomberg Television’s Annmarie Hordern.
WATCH: Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba says Ukraine was hoping for an invitation to NATO.
Crucially, it was the US and Germany that insisted on dialing back the commitment to Ukraine joining the alliance. Earlier drafts of the communique offered a clearer pathway to Ukraine eventually joining, but Biden and Chancellor Olaf Scholz were wary of going too far.
Their teams demanded changes in the final days before the summit, upsetting lots of the other European nations, as well as the Ukrainians.
When Biden landed in Vilnius on Monday evening, the language on the membership path was still not nailed down. The next day, the Ukrainian team heard that the text was close to settled and they weren’t going to like it. They decided to send the provocative tweet, in an effort to jolt the debate back in their favor.
The Americans were particularly irritated. The British intervened in an effort to calm the situation while the Germans also tried to come up with alternatives.
As the situation threatened to come off the rails, Zelenskiy’s chief of staff, Andriy Yermak, called US National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, but the text was approved anyway before the Ukrainians arrived.
When Zelenskiy did get to the summit, he was met by frank criticism from several other leaders, who made it clear that he’d overstepped the mark.
The concern among Kyiv’s more ardent supporters was that the allies were going to repeat the mistake of 2008 when a vague commitment to Ukrainian membership proved a provocation to Russia without offering sufficient protection against military aggression.
“By attaching two conditionalities to Ukraine’s membership that didn’t exist before, NATO is giving the impression of a cold shoulder to Ukraine,” said Kristine Berzina, a geopolitical analyst at the German Marshall Fund in Washington. “It undoes the work NATO agreed the night before, reaching an agreement on Sweden’s bid, and it dampens the other very pro-Ukrainian and very rough Russia language in the summit communique.”
Some of those insisting on caution recall the history of European wars and, in particular, the way nations were dragged into long-running conflicts during the early part of the last century.
There’s also the complexity of how the war in Ukraine might end and the possibility that it will leave parts of Ukraine’s territory in dispute and occupied by Russian forces. Some diplomats were concerned that a clear commitment to triggering NATO membership would complicate any eventual negotiations.
But there was also a collective understanding of the need to project unity.
Zelenskiy “was never alone” at the dinner, Latvian Prime Minister Krisjanis Karins said in another Bloomberg Television interview. “There was no animosity, everybody was speaking a similar language.”
The alliance “will not take in any country during a war, because that would put NATO immediately in a war,” he added.
Zelenskiy still seemed frosty as he headed into a meeting with Scholz on Wednesday morning, especially by comparison with the UK’s Rishi Sunak — one of Ukraine’s more enthusiastic cheerleaders — and Mark Rutte of the Netherlands, who’s been spearheading efforts to train Ukrainian pilots on F-16 fighter jets to the Ukrainian air force.
By that stage, diplomats on both sides were framing Zelenskiy’s outburst the previous day as a familiar maneuver designed to raise the stakes in a negotiation, a move that has paid off in the past, but this time did not — the Ukrainian president had repeatedly threatened not to show up in the weeks leading up to the summit.
When he spoke to reporters around midday, Zelenskiy’s tone had shifted.
“We understand some are afraid to talk about our membership in NATO now because they are afraid of the global war,” Zelenskiy told reporters. Ukraine accepts that it can only join “when it will be safe on our land,” he added.
Then he said he wanted to include “words of gratitude” for the steps taken by allies, peppering his comments with that word — “gratitude.”
“We’re going to make sure that you get what you need,” Biden said standing alongside Zelenskiy later on Wednesday, wearing a tie in the Ukrainian colors. “And I look forward to the day we’re having the meeting to celebrate your official, official membership in NATO.”
— With Natalia Ojewska, Kitty Donaldson, Andra Timu, Maria Tadeo, Arne Delfs, Alberto Nardelli, and Daryna Krasnolutska
ww2historian
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Biden was truthful for once. "The bad news for you is, we're not going anywhere, you're stuck with us." 3 minute 42 sec. mark.
www.c-span.org
President Biden Meets With Ukrainian President
President Biden and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky spoke briefly to reporters before a bilateral meeting on the sidelines of the 2023 NATO Summit in Vilnius, Lithuania. President Biden reiterated U.S. support for Ukraine in its war against Russia, and President Zelensky thanked him and...
Craigs
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It's good that you keep checking in. At least we know you are still breathing.
Hari Sud
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- Mar 31, 2012
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Now the world is on a declining interest on this whiteman's war. No victory is possible for America or Ukraine in the election year, hence Biden has to change the topic like fixing obtuse China who wishes to dictate economic terms on trade and want to capture Taiwan. That may be a better topic without pumping $100 billion of American tax payer’s money Into Ukraine.
It must be a bunch of crazy advisors at the White House, who advised Biden that victory over Russia is possible without loosing a single American in the war. First somebody must have told him that economic sanctions will finish Russia. …… No, it did not. Then came the military generals and CIA who probably advised him that US high technology weapons will crush the Russian Invasion…… No, it did not.
Now it is a clumsy stalemate where they can neither enrol Ukraine into NATO membership nor they can guarantee a military victory.
With thousands of people dead, is it possible to initiate Korea type (1953) peace talks? Like in Korea, a friendly India could play a big peacemaker’s role. Keep China out of this completely.
It must be a bunch of crazy advisors at the White House, who advised Biden that victory over Russia is possible without loosing a single American in the war. First somebody must have told him that economic sanctions will finish Russia. …… No, it did not. Then came the military generals and CIA who probably advised him that US high technology weapons will crush the Russian Invasion…… No, it did not.
Now it is a clumsy stalemate where they can neither enrol Ukraine into NATO membership nor they can guarantee a military victory.
With thousands of people dead, is it possible to initiate Korea type (1953) peace talks? Like in Korea, a friendly India could play a big peacemaker’s role. Keep China out of this completely.
Akim
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This means that those units in which they are in service are not involved. After all, you do not see French and German infantry fighting vehicles, or English Bulldogs and American Strikers.
Master Chief
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He is only partly right about western weapons..Many Western weapons are good.. but are generally hard to maintain on the battle field and a lot costlier than Russian weapons..He's right. Modern Western weapons never had to face against near peer forces since WWII . Russian weapons are designed to be simple & effective while Western ones are designed to make subcontractors & senators rich
.
HIMARS as counter battery has been very effective.. This one the latest in a string of recent videos
HIMARS destroying Russian MLRS
Recent Excalibre counter battery strike..
Also, here.. dumb Ukies wasting $ 300k GMLRS on old Ukral truck..
Last edited:
Craigs
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When will they get involved?
Akim
Professional
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I do not sit in the General Staff.
vishnugupt
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Akim, how do you feels about humiliation of you Head of state by NATO in Vilnius ?? Zelenskyy was visibility disturbed and worried about Ukraine but your allies was joking / laughing around him. No body told him truth about NATO entry either.
I have never seen Pulter behaving like that with Asaad. Asad, Iran, Cuban Praise Putler like parrot.
