Russia Ukraine War 2022

Who will win this war?.


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vampyrbladez

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Russia’s New Time of Troubles

It’s Not 1917 in Moscow—It’s 1604

By Vladislav Zubok

June 28, 2023

In the midst of the mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin’s brief rebellion on June 24, Russian President Vladimir Putin compared the “treason” of the Wagner paramilitary leader with the revolutionary turmoil of 1917. “Intrigues, squabbles, politicking behind the back of the army and the people led to great calamity, destruction of the army and the demise for the state, the loss of enormous territories, and, in the end, the tragedy of civil war,” Putin said in a televised address, blaming “internal betrayal” for Russia’s defeat in World War I and the collapse of its empire. “What we’re facing is exactly a betrayal.”

As if taking his cue, some Western analysts compared Prigozhin to Lavr Kornilov, the imperial Russian general who, in August 1917, sent his troops from the frontline to Petrograd, then Russia’s capital, to clear it of revolutionaries—only to be accused of attempting a coup and imprisoned. More than 100 years later, many of Putin’s enemies asserted, Russia was imploding again. After seizing a major Russian military headquarters in the southern city of Rostov-on-Don, Prigozhin’s mercenaries moved north toward Moscow in an orderly column, passing one region after another without meeting any resistance. Meanwhile, not a peep was heard from the Kremlin, and rumors spread that Putin had flown out of Moscow. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky claimed that the Russian president was no longer in control. Mikhail Khodorkovsky, a Russian dissident in exile, suggested that ordinary Russians should arm themselves because a civil war was afoot.

Within a few hours, however, Prigozhin had called off his drive to Moscow and agreed to a deal brokered by Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko: Prigozhin would avoid prosecution for treason by leaving for Belarus, and Wagner’s fighters could either go with him or agree to sign contracts with the Russian Ministry of Defense. What had seemed to be a drama that might culminate in Putin’s demise suddenly looked more like a farce.

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Still, there is no doubt the Prigozhin affair has irreversibly changed the situation in Russia. Much remains uncertain about the rebellion and its aftermath. What is clear, however, is that in harking back to 1917, Putin and his critics and adversaries alike were reaching for the wrong historical analogy. What is taking place in Russia right now bears less resemblance to the events of 1917 than to those of an earlier era: the so-called Time of Troubles, or Smuta, which lasted from 1604 to 1613. During this period, the Russian dynasty of the Rurikids came to a violent end, and it took a decade of war and civil upheaval before the Romanov dynasty consolidated monarchical authority. In the meantime, Russia almost ceased to exist as a sovereign entity—a fate that could befall Russia again today because Putin’s personalized autocratic rule has made it hard to imagine an orderly succession.

MODERN VILLAINS, ANCIENT SCRIPTS
The stage for the Smuta was set by Ivan the Terrible, whose brutal and disruptive rule ended in 1584. Ivan exhausted his people and his finances by fighting endless wars to expand his realm, primarily in the Baltic. He decimated the Russian elite in a paranoid orgy of executions as he tried to consolidate absolute power. And in a fit of rage, he killed the son who could have succeeded him, transforming the throne into an object of fierce competition among elite clans.

What followed was a period of economic decline, famine, and conflict—including between an ambitious courtier named Boris Godunov, who occupied the throne from 1598 until 1605, and an adventurous young man who claimed to be Ivan’s son. The Pretender, or “False Dmitry,” enjoyed the backing of Polish-Lithuanian rulers, who coveted Russia’s resources, as well as the support of Moscow’s elites and, briefly, the Russian population. Godunov’s death in 1605 quickly led to the triumph of False Dmitry, who entered Moscow and declared himself tsar—only to be killed along with his Polish retinue the following year by a disillusioned mob.

Civil war and economic crisis engulfed Russia as the Smuta intensified. External enemies moved in: the Swedes came from the north; the Crimean Khanate, an arm of the Ottoman Empire, raided the south; and Polish troops ended up occupying the Kremlin. It is not clear what enabled Russia to survive. Nationalist historians have argued it was an explosion of patriotism and religious faith among the Russian people. What is certain is that two rounds of mass conscription helped the Russians retake the Kremlin from the Poles and gradually restore order. In 1613, Russians from all cross sections of society elected the “lawful” tsar, Mikhail Romanov, and peace with Western countries came five years later.


The Prigozhin affair has irreversibly changed the situation in Russia.
In his lectures on Russian history published in 1904, the imperial historian Vasily Klyuchevsky argued that the Smuta formed “the underlying foundation of the modern way of life” in Russia. “Studying that time,” Klyuchevsky said, “feels like writing an autobiography.” One hundred and twenty years later, these words still hold true. A nuclear power with a sophisticated urban population, robust digital economy, and resilient financial system, Russia remains strangely antiquated when it comes to its sociopolitical structures and institutions, in some ways less modern even than the Soviet Union. As the writer and dramatist Vladimir Sorokin wrote in February 2022, “The principle of Russian power hasn’t even remotely changed in the last five centuries.”

It is an exaggeration that nonetheless reveals deep insights. Every time Russia begins to more closely resemble modern Europe, some jolt sends the country back to its medieval origins. Half a century of industrialization and modernization ended in the horrors of the Russian Revolution and Bolshevik tyranny. Three decades of struggle to overcome the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin’s brutal legacy seemed to bear fruit under Mikhail Gorbachev but ended in the collapse of 1991. Promising attempts to “Europeanize” the country in the 1990s eventually triggered the slide backward under Vladimir Putin.

Putin’s Russia does not resemble the communist dictatorship, but it is strangely archaic. In some ways, it seems better suited to the seventeenth century than to this century or the last one. Gone is the cultural capital of the imperial and Soviet times. Gone are the idealistic socialists and the enlightened bureaucrats. Gone are the notions of chivalry and honor that inspired Kornilov to try to save Russia from chaos. One does not even find the squeamishness that prevented the KGB from massacring the Russian opposition in August 1991, when a group of Soviet hard-liners failed to seize power from Gorbachev. Humanistic and enlightened impulses that for decades propelled Russia’s intellectual and social modernization are now underground. All that is left is a nearly operatic cast of figures: the isolated tsar, the supine patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, the treacherous courtiers, the money-grabbing warlords, and, finally, the audacious pretender—all of them acting according to the ancient scripts.

There are plenty of role models for Prigozhin in the history of the Smuta. He could be a modern Vasily Shuisky, the scheming and mendacious courtier who plotted to kill the Pretender. Another model could be the rebellious warlord and ex-prisoner Ivan Bolotnikov, who in August 1606 led a ragtag army to Moscow with the aim of killing the elites and electing a “people’s tsar.” Defeated by government troops, he was betrayed by his associates, blinded, and drowned. For a single day, Prigozhin became a pretender to the throne in Moscow—the embodiment of the hopes, expectations, and grievances of millions of people. Yet to the great frustration of many on all sides, he quickly shirked this role.

THE TRIANGLE OF STABILITY
The narratives of the Smuta say more about Russia today than the narratives of 1917, which are misleading for many reasons. First, there is a tsar in the Kremlin, not an impotent provisional government like the one in power in 1917. And nowhere—not even in the murkiest corners of Western libraries—are there Russian radicals such as Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky. Moreover, there can be no comparison between Prigozhin and Kornilov. The latter was ready to die for the country and for democratic principles and did so less than a year after his failed march to Petrograd—on another march to liberate Russia from the Bolsheviks. Prigozhin, by contrast, is a mercenary leader who does not believe in anything. He is a cross between a courtier and a mob boss. He was incensed when his enemies, Putin’s other courtiers, prevailed over him and decided to take away his business, his money, and his private army. He never intended to become the next tsar. And his mutiny was not a careful plot to seize power but rather a desperate act to prevent Wagner from being dissolved.

The Smuta also provides a useful framework for understanding both the brittleness and the resilience of the Russian state. In the early seventeenth century, stability depended on the interactions of four centers of power, three domestic and one foreign: the tsar, the elites, the people, and external enemies. During the Smuta, Russia was embroiled in almost constant wars with its Western neighbors, above all the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. The domestic triangle, however, was decisive in determining the outcome of this period. Everyone understood that without the tsar, Russia would fall apart. The Russian elites, however, feared their own population more than they feared foreign enemies, and they were prepared to accept foreign rule or at least to compromise with Western potentates in order to prevent a mass upheaval from below and the redistribution of wealth. Yet every time they supported a Western-backed pretender such as False Dmitry, the masses rallied around the tsar, religion, and Russian statehood. The civil war in Russia ended in a new Leviathan, a covenant between the elites, the people, and the tsar.

This domestic power triangle still holds sway over Russia today. The Prigozhin mutiny weakened the tsar, denting Putin’s authority and image. His wooden appearances on TV screens at times when most people were asleep called to mind the troubled days of the 1991–93 period. Putin did not know what to say, and even his warning about “another 1917” sounded feckless. One does not stop a coup by telling people how bad it would be if the plotters succeed. Putin did not lead and did not take full responsibility for the chaos. His threats rang hollow. As farcical as it was, therefore, the putsch made the Russian leader weaker than before.


The fact that Putin is weak does not mean the end of his rule is near.
Yet the fact that Putin is weak does not mean the end of his rule is near. Russian elites, the military, and the people did not side with an adventurous warlord against Putin because they rightfully suspected that squabble and chaos would only hurt them, leading to another Smuta with colossal financial losses and possibly violence. The mutiny ended before the Russians were forced to take sides, but Prigozhin never stood a chance of winning over both the elites in Moscow and the broader population.

The longer the war in Ukraine lasts, the greater the risk of another Smuta in Russia. Russian elites are once again divided from the masses, just as they were on the eve of the Time of Troubles. The figure of the tsar is the only thing that unites them and allows the state to function. But if Putin suddenly disappears from the picture, his courtiers will face a stark choice: go down the road of Godunov and plunge the country into chaos or circle the wagons, avoid an internecine struggle, and enable all groups to elect a new president in emergency national elections.

Two days after the Prigozhin mutiny fizzled out, Putin addressed the Russian people once again, praising everyone, even the Wagner fighters, for their patriotic and sensible behavior. But he also mentioned the Smuta, a term of warning that is still understood by all Russians. The prospect of a nuclear power sliding into a modern Time of Troubles should scare Western countries as it scares the Russian people. The odds of a quick transition from wartime autocracy to a more accommodating, liberal regime in Moscow are long. And they are made longer still by the scripts of Russian history.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/russias-new-time-troubles
 

Sanglamorre

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NATO countries do, In embassies only officially. But unofficially I am sure there are "private contractors" that help with the military equipment.

NATO also has troops inside Russia and inside India (guarding embassies).
You don't need private contractors. Ukrainians aren't operating the very critical weapon systems with that little training time they could afford. It's undeclared NATO personnel themselves.

Unless you want to say the West has been arming Ukraine for years to mount an attack on Russia.
 

Master Chief

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Since the poll results have been used to show how 'Biden was right', the question you should be asking us who validated the data?

I can say 87.45% of Indians think Martians are coming for us, but it doesn't mean it really is so.
Americans don't mind until it's their soldiers getting killed.. Until, that happens, I see US continue to send military supplies to Ukriane.. although it would reduce if Ukriane can't come up with gains on the battle field
.
 

ww2historian

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Russia’s New Time of Troubles

It’s Not 1917 in Moscow—It’s 1604

By Vladislav Zubok

June 28, 2023

In the midst of the mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin’s brief rebellion on June 24, Russian President Vladimir Putin compared the “treason” of the Wagner paramilitary leader with the revolutionary turmoil of 1917. “Intrigues, squabbles, politicking behind the back of the army and the people led to great calamity, destruction of the army and the demise for the state, the loss of enormous territories, and, in the end, the tragedy of civil war,” Putin said in a televised address, blaming “internal betrayal” for Russia’s defeat in World War I and the collapse of its empire. “What we’re facing is exactly a betrayal.”

As if taking his cue, some Western analysts compared Prigozhin to Lavr Kornilov, the imperial Russian general who, in August 1917, sent his troops from the frontline to Petrograd, then Russia’s capital, to clear it of revolutionaries—only to be accused of attempting a coup and imprisoned. More than 100 years later, many of Putin’s enemies asserted, Russia was imploding again. After seizing a major Russian military headquarters in the southern city of Rostov-on-Don, Prigozhin’s mercenaries moved north toward Moscow in an orderly column, passing one region after another without meeting any resistance. Meanwhile, not a peep was heard from the Kremlin, and rumors spread that Putin had flown out of Moscow. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky claimed that the Russian president was no longer in control. Mikhail Khodorkovsky, a Russian dissident in exile, suggested that ordinary Russians should arm themselves because a civil war was afoot.

Within a few hours, however, Prigozhin had called off his drive to Moscow and agreed to a deal brokered by Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko: Prigozhin would avoid prosecution for treason by leaving for Belarus, and Wagner’s fighters could either go with him or agree to sign contracts with the Russian Ministry of Defense. What had seemed to be a drama that might culminate in Putin’s demise suddenly looked more like a farce.

Stay informed.
In-depth analysis delivered weekly.
Still, there is no doubt the Prigozhin affair has irreversibly changed the situation in Russia. Much remains uncertain about the rebellion and its aftermath. What is clear, however, is that in harking back to 1917, Putin and his critics and adversaries alike were reaching for the wrong historical analogy. What is taking place in Russia right now bears less resemblance to the events of 1917 than to those of an earlier era: the so-called Time of Troubles, or Smuta, which lasted from 1604 to 1613. During this period, the Russian dynasty of the Rurikids came to a violent end, and it took a decade of war and civil upheaval before the Romanov dynasty consolidated monarchical authority. In the meantime, Russia almost ceased to exist as a sovereign entity—a fate that could befall Russia again today because Putin’s personalized autocratic rule has made it hard to imagine an orderly succession.

MODERN VILLAINS, ANCIENT SCRIPTS
The stage for the Smuta was set by Ivan the Terrible, whose brutal and disruptive rule ended in 1584. Ivan exhausted his people and his finances by fighting endless wars to expand his realm, primarily in the Baltic. He decimated the Russian elite in a paranoid orgy of executions as he tried to consolidate absolute power. And in a fit of rage, he killed the son who could have succeeded him, transforming the throne into an object of fierce competition among elite clans.

What followed was a period of economic decline, famine, and conflict—including between an ambitious courtier named Boris Godunov, who occupied the throne from 1598 until 1605, and an adventurous young man who claimed to be Ivan’s son. The Pretender, or “False Dmitry,” enjoyed the backing of Polish-Lithuanian rulers, who coveted Russia’s resources, as well as the support of Moscow’s elites and, briefly, the Russian population. Godunov’s death in 1605 quickly led to the triumph of False Dmitry, who entered Moscow and declared himself tsar—only to be killed along with his Polish retinue the following year by a disillusioned mob.

Civil war and economic crisis engulfed Russia as the Smuta intensified. External enemies moved in: the Swedes came from the north; the Crimean Khanate, an arm of the Ottoman Empire, raided the south; and Polish troops ended up occupying the Kremlin. It is not clear what enabled Russia to survive. Nationalist historians have argued it was an explosion of patriotism and religious faith among the Russian people. What is certain is that two rounds of mass conscription helped the Russians retake the Kremlin from the Poles and gradually restore order. In 1613, Russians from all cross sections of society elected the “lawful” tsar, Mikhail Romanov, and peace with Western countries came five years later.


The Prigozhin affair has irreversibly changed the situation in Russia.
In his lectures on Russian history published in 1904, the imperial historian Vasily Klyuchevsky argued that the Smuta formed “the underlying foundation of the modern way of life” in Russia. “Studying that time,” Klyuchevsky said, “feels like writing an autobiography.” One hundred and twenty years later, these words still hold true. A nuclear power with a sophisticated urban population, robust digital economy, and resilient financial system, Russia remains strangely antiquated when it comes to its sociopolitical structures and institutions, in some ways less modern even than the Soviet Union. As the writer and dramatist Vladimir Sorokin wrote in February 2022, “The principle of Russian power hasn’t even remotely changed in the last five centuries.”

It is an exaggeration that nonetheless reveals deep insights. Every time Russia begins to more closely resemble modern Europe, some jolt sends the country back to its medieval origins. Half a century of industrialization and modernization ended in the horrors of the Russian Revolution and Bolshevik tyranny. Three decades of struggle to overcome the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin’s brutal legacy seemed to bear fruit under Mikhail Gorbachev but ended in the collapse of 1991. Promising attempts to “Europeanize” the country in the 1990s eventually triggered the slide backward under Vladimir Putin.

Putin’s Russia does not resemble the communist dictatorship, but it is strangely archaic. In some ways, it seems better suited to the seventeenth century than to this century or the last one. Gone is the cultural capital of the imperial and Soviet times. Gone are the idealistic socialists and the enlightened bureaucrats. Gone are the notions of chivalry and honor that inspired Kornilov to try to save Russia from chaos. One does not even find the squeamishness that prevented the KGB from massacring the Russian opposition in August 1991, when a group of Soviet hard-liners failed to seize power from Gorbachev. Humanistic and enlightened impulses that for decades propelled Russia’s intellectual and social modernization are now underground. All that is left is a nearly operatic cast of figures: the isolated tsar, the supine patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, the treacherous courtiers, the money-grabbing warlords, and, finally, the audacious pretender—all of them acting according to the ancient scripts.

There are plenty of role models for Prigozhin in the history of the Smuta. He could be a modern Vasily Shuisky, the scheming and mendacious courtier who plotted to kill the Pretender. Another model could be the rebellious warlord and ex-prisoner Ivan Bolotnikov, who in August 1606 led a ragtag army to Moscow with the aim of killing the elites and electing a “people’s tsar.” Defeated by government troops, he was betrayed by his associates, blinded, and drowned. For a single day, Prigozhin became a pretender to the throne in Moscow—the embodiment of the hopes, expectations, and grievances of millions of people. Yet to the great frustration of many on all sides, he quickly shirked this role.

THE TRIANGLE OF STABILITY
The narratives of the Smuta say more about Russia today than the narratives of 1917, which are misleading for many reasons. First, there is a tsar in the Kremlin, not an impotent provisional government like the one in power in 1917. And nowhere—not even in the murkiest corners of Western libraries—are there Russian radicals such as Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky. Moreover, there can be no comparison between Prigozhin and Kornilov. The latter was ready to die for the country and for democratic principles and did so less than a year after his failed march to Petrograd—on another march to liberate Russia from the Bolsheviks. Prigozhin, by contrast, is a mercenary leader who does not believe in anything. He is a cross between a courtier and a mob boss. He was incensed when his enemies, Putin’s other courtiers, prevailed over him and decided to take away his business, his money, and his private army. He never intended to become the next tsar. And his mutiny was not a careful plot to seize power but rather a desperate act to prevent Wagner from being dissolved.

The Smuta also provides a useful framework for understanding both the brittleness and the resilience of the Russian state. In the early seventeenth century, stability depended on the interactions of four centers of power, three domestic and one foreign: the tsar, the elites, the people, and external enemies. During the Smuta, Russia was embroiled in almost constant wars with its Western neighbors, above all the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. The domestic triangle, however, was decisive in determining the outcome of this period. Everyone understood that without the tsar, Russia would fall apart. The Russian elites, however, feared their own population more than they feared foreign enemies, and they were prepared to accept foreign rule or at least to compromise with Western potentates in order to prevent a mass upheaval from below and the redistribution of wealth. Yet every time they supported a Western-backed pretender such as False Dmitry, the masses rallied around the tsar, religion, and Russian statehood. The civil war in Russia ended in a new Leviathan, a covenant between the elites, the people, and the tsar.

This domestic power triangle still holds sway over Russia today. The Prigozhin mutiny weakened the tsar, denting Putin’s authority and image. His wooden appearances on TV screens at times when most people were asleep called to mind the troubled days of the 1991–93 period. Putin did not know what to say, and even his warning about “another 1917” sounded feckless. One does not stop a coup by telling people how bad it would be if the plotters succeed. Putin did not lead and did not take full responsibility for the chaos. His threats rang hollow. As farcical as it was, therefore, the putsch made the Russian leader weaker than before.


The fact that Putin is weak does not mean the end of his rule is near.
Yet the fact that Putin is weak does not mean the end of his rule is near. Russian elites, the military, and the people did not side with an adventurous warlord against Putin because they rightfully suspected that squabble and chaos would only hurt them, leading to another Smuta with colossal financial losses and possibly violence. The mutiny ended before the Russians were forced to take sides, but Prigozhin never stood a chance of winning over both the elites in Moscow and the broader population.

The longer the war in Ukraine lasts, the greater the risk of another Smuta in Russia. Russian elites are once again divided from the masses, just as they were on the eve of the Time of Troubles. The figure of the tsar is the only thing that unites them and allows the state to function. But if Putin suddenly disappears from the picture, his courtiers will face a stark choice: go down the road of Godunov and plunge the country into chaos or circle the wagons, avoid an internecine struggle, and enable all groups to elect a new president in emergency national elections.

Two days after the Prigozhin mutiny fizzled out, Putin addressed the Russian people once again, praising everyone, even the Wagner fighters, for their patriotic and sensible behavior. But he also mentioned the Smuta, a term of warning that is still understood by all Russians. The prospect of a nuclear power sliding into a modern Time of Troubles should scare Western countries as it scares the Russian people. The odds of a quick transition from wartime autocracy to a more accommodating, liberal regime in Moscow are long. And they are made longer still by the scripts of Russian history.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/russias-new-time-troubles
What I found funny was a more detailed quote from Zelensky when he claimed Putin was scared...

"Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Saturday claimed Russian President Vladimir Putin is “very afraid,” after Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin said he was turning his fighters around from a march toward Moscow.
“I will say it in Russian: The man from the Kremlin is obviously very afraid and probably hiding somewhere, not showing himself,” Zelensky said.
Zelensky also said Putin's own actions were to blame for the situation facing him.
“He knows what he is afraid of because he himself created this threat. All evil, all losses, all hatred – he himself who spreads it,” Zelensky said.
Recent developments in Russia, Zelensky said, show that “the bosses of Russia do not control anything,” adding that “it is happening on Russian territory, which is fully loaded with weapons.”
“In one day, they lost several of their million-plus cities and showed all Russian bandits, mercenaries, oligarchs and anyone else how easy it is to capture Russian cities and, probably, arsenals with weapons,” Zelensky said."

Zelensky is a stupid drug addict who doesn't know when he's dreaming or awake.
 
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Americans don't mind until it's their soldiers getting killed.. Until, that happens, I see US continue to send military supplies to Ukriane.. although it would reduce if Ukriane can't come up with gains on the battle field
.
what gains have been made with all NATO supplying Ukraine for over a year???(not just weapons but also soldiers?)
 
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ww2historian

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The Moscow times, although it sounds like a Russian source, is actually a western source. RT is a Russian source, and they've reported nothing. https://www.rt.com/search?q=Surovikin
 

Master Chief

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what gains have been made with all NATO supplying Ukraine for over a year???(not just weapons but also soldiers?)
Parts of Kharkhiv and parts of Donetsk recaptured by Ukraine in September 2022.

Western Bank of Dneiper and Kherson City recaptured by Ukraine in November 2022.

Although, Summer 2023 Ukraine offensive has been a failure until now..
 
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Master Chief

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This has nothing to do with Ukrainian military proficiency or battles or western equipment- its simply Russian MoD deciding that right bank Dneiper is not logistically feasible to hold at this point in time.
Well, Russia did try to hold Kherson city though.. Russia would not have vacated Kherson city, if it's logistics across the Dneiper were not continually harassed by HIMARS, and Antovsky Bridge rendered useless. Russia has mitigated the effect of HIMARS and other long range western supplied weaponry elsewhere, but the Dneiper barrier proved difficult to get around..
 

GaudaNaresh

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Well, Russia did try to hold Kherson city though.. Russia would not have vacated Kherson city, if it's logistics across the Dneiper were not continually harassed by HIMARS, and Antovsky Bridge rendered useless. Russia has mitigated the effect of HIMARS and other long range western supplied weaponry elsewhere, but the Dneiper barrier proved difficult to get around..
Himars or no himars, its the logistical barrier of the Dnieper, while not holding any secured crossing points across the Dneiper that caused the evacuation. Note that Russia did not control the right bank of Nova Kakhova dam crossing and the frontline at Kherson was only a few kms north of the Antonovsky bridge. Ergo, that evacuation was a matter of logistics and geographical factors rather than anything military from Ukraine. Ukraine didn't blow up any significant amount of Russian supplies on right bank Kherson or win any major confrontations there either.
 

Master Chief

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Himars or no himars, its the logistical barrier of the Dnieper, while not holding any secured crossing points across the Dneiper that caused the evacuation. Note that Russia did not control the right bank of Nova Kakhova dam crossing and the frontline at Kherson was only a few kms north of the Antonovsky bridge. Ergo, that evacuation was a matter of logistics and geographical factors rather than anything military from Ukraine. Ukraine didn't blow up any significant amount of Russian supplies on right bank Kherson or win any major confrontations there either.
Russia controlled the right bank of Nova Khakovka dam crossing for many months..
Below is the map of control of Kherson Oblast in August 2022.. You can see that right bank of Nova Khakovka dam of is well within Russian controlled areas.


What was even the point of Russia evacuating Right bank of Kherson if Ukraine had not launched its counteroffensive in right bank of Kherson, straining Russian logistics, while also targetting bridges/logistics across Dneiper and harassing supplies.. This was a low hanging fruit for Ukraine, as Russian logistical capability came up short..

images (76).jpeg
 

GaudaNaresh

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Russia controlled the right bank of Nova Khakovka dam crossing for many months..
Below is the map of control of Kherson Oblast in August 2022.. You can see that right bank of Nova Khakovka dam of is well within Russian controlled areas.
Ok my bad. But the point still stands- look at the controlled zone and both the bridge crossings are well within standard artillery range, thus not secure supply line.

What was even the point of Russia evacuating Right bank of Kherson if Ukraine had not launched its counteroffensive in right bank of Kherson, straining Russian logistics, while also targetting bridges/logistics across Dneiper and harassing supplies.. This was a low hanging fruit for Ukraine, as Russian logistical capability came up short..
The logistics were strained due to the location of the frontline vis-a-vis the two bridges. Ukraine launching a counteroffensive was not the relevant factor for evacuation, Russia would've evacuated at any point ukraine launched a counteroffensive, simply because it'd mean ukrainian troops committed to right bank Dneiper and not left bank Dneiper. The presence of Russian troops on right bank Ukraine served only one purpose: to siphon off Ukrainian troops to right bank Dneiper.

Regardless, my point was that right bank dneiper was evacuated by Russia due to Russian logistical problems, not due to western arms given to Ukraine. That didn't make a jot of a difference to evacuation of Kherson.
 

Master Chief

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Ok my bad. But the point still stands- look at the controlled zone and both the bridge crossings are well within standard artillery range, thus not secure supply line.



The logistics were strained due to the location of the frontline vis-a-vis the two bridges. Ukraine launching a counteroffensive was not the relevant factor for evacuation, Russia would've evacuated at any point ukraine launched a counteroffensive, simply because it'd mean ukrainian troops committed to right bank Dneiper and not left bank Dneiper. The presence of Russian troops on right bank Ukraine served only one purpose: to siphon off Ukrainian troops to right bank Dneiper.

Regardless, my point was that right bank dneiper was evacuated by Russia due to Russian logistical problems, not due to western arms given to Ukraine. That didn't make a jot of a difference to evacuation of Kherson.
In May 2022, Kakhovka Bridge was around 60 km from frontline.. and Antonovsky bridge probably around 40 km.. out of most short range Ukranian artillery. Russia still lacked depth on the right bank, as a formidable foe like AFU could push the front by 10 km, bringing Russian logistics under severe threat .
HIMARS proved ineffective against Khakovka bridge, as it was built over the dam.. Only Antonovsky bridge was rendered useless by HIMARS.. So, although the main reason for the Russian withdrawal from right bank was logistical issues related to the formidable Dneiper, and the lack of Depth on the right bank.. I would still say Western Long range artillery played an important part . [Of course, how important can be disputed, until we have access to Russian military archives in the future, detailing the issues faced by the Russian Army in fall 2022 ]
But, I agree that concentrating AFU offensive potential against Right bank, helped Russia gain time to build formidable defenses in the south on the left bank..
 
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kittoo420

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Russia’s New Time of Troubles

It’s Not 1917 in Moscow—It’s 1604

By Vladislav Zubok

June 28, 2023

In the midst of the mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin’s brief rebellion on June 24, Russian President Vladimir Putin compared the “treason” of the Wagner paramilitary leader with the revolutionary turmoil of 1917. “Intrigues, squabbles, politicking behind the back of the army and the people led to great calamity, destruction of the army and the demise for the state, the loss of enormous territories, and, in the end, the tragedy of civil war,” Putin said in a televised address, blaming “internal betrayal” for Russia’s defeat in World War I and the collapse of its empire. “What we’re facing is exactly a betrayal.”

As if taking his cue, some Western analysts compared Prigozhin to Lavr Kornilov, the imperial Russian general who, in August 1917, sent his troops from the frontline to Petrograd, then Russia’s capital, to clear it of revolutionaries—only to be accused of attempting a coup and imprisoned. More than 100 years later, many of Putin’s enemies asserted, Russia was imploding again. After seizing a major Russian military headquarters in the southern city of Rostov-on-Don, Prigozhin’s mercenaries moved north toward Moscow in an orderly column, passing one region after another without meeting any resistance. Meanwhile, not a peep was heard from the Kremlin, and rumors spread that Putin had flown out of Moscow. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky claimed that the Russian president was no longer in control. Mikhail Khodorkovsky, a Russian dissident in exile, suggested that ordinary Russians should arm themselves because a civil war was afoot.

Within a few hours, however, Prigozhin had called off his drive to Moscow and agreed to a deal brokered by Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko: Prigozhin would avoid prosecution for treason by leaving for Belarus, and Wagner’s fighters could either go with him or agree to sign contracts with the Russian Ministry of Defense. What had seemed to be a drama that might culminate in Putin’s demise suddenly looked more like a farce.

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Still, there is no doubt the Prigozhin affair has irreversibly changed the situation in Russia. Much remains uncertain about the rebellion and its aftermath. What is clear, however, is that in harking back to 1917, Putin and his critics and adversaries alike were reaching for the wrong historical analogy. What is taking place in Russia right now bears less resemblance to the events of 1917 than to those of an earlier era: the so-called Time of Troubles, or Smuta, which lasted from 1604 to 1613. During this period, the Russian dynasty of the Rurikids came to a violent end, and it took a decade of war and civil upheaval before the Romanov dynasty consolidated monarchical authority. In the meantime, Russia almost ceased to exist as a sovereign entity—a fate that could befall Russia again today because Putin’s personalized autocratic rule has made it hard to imagine an orderly succession.

MODERN VILLAINS, ANCIENT SCRIPTS
The stage for the Smuta was set by Ivan the Terrible, whose brutal and disruptive rule ended in 1584. Ivan exhausted his people and his finances by fighting endless wars to expand his realm, primarily in the Baltic. He decimated the Russian elite in a paranoid orgy of executions as he tried to consolidate absolute power. And in a fit of rage, he killed the son who could have succeeded him, transforming the throne into an object of fierce competition among elite clans.

What followed was a period of economic decline, famine, and conflict—including between an ambitious courtier named Boris Godunov, who occupied the throne from 1598 until 1605, and an adventurous young man who claimed to be Ivan’s son. The Pretender, or “False Dmitry,” enjoyed the backing of Polish-Lithuanian rulers, who coveted Russia’s resources, as well as the support of Moscow’s elites and, briefly, the Russian population. Godunov’s death in 1605 quickly led to the triumph of False Dmitry, who entered Moscow and declared himself tsar—only to be killed along with his Polish retinue the following year by a disillusioned mob.

Civil war and economic crisis engulfed Russia as the Smuta intensified. External enemies moved in: the Swedes came from the north; the Crimean Khanate, an arm of the Ottoman Empire, raided the south; and Polish troops ended up occupying the Kremlin. It is not clear what enabled Russia to survive. Nationalist historians have argued it was an explosion of patriotism and religious faith among the Russian people. What is certain is that two rounds of mass conscription helped the Russians retake the Kremlin from the Poles and gradually restore order. In 1613, Russians from all cross sections of society elected the “lawful” tsar, Mikhail Romanov, and peace with Western countries came five years later.


The Prigozhin affair has irreversibly changed the situation in Russia.
In his lectures on Russian history published in 1904, the imperial historian Vasily Klyuchevsky argued that the Smuta formed “the underlying foundation of the modern way of life” in Russia. “Studying that time,” Klyuchevsky said, “feels like writing an autobiography.” One hundred and twenty years later, these words still hold true. A nuclear power with a sophisticated urban population, robust digital economy, and resilient financial system, Russia remains strangely antiquated when it comes to its sociopolitical structures and institutions, in some ways less modern even than the Soviet Union. As the writer and dramatist Vladimir Sorokin wrote in February 2022, “The principle of Russian power hasn’t even remotely changed in the last five centuries.”

It is an exaggeration that nonetheless reveals deep insights. Every time Russia begins to more closely resemble modern Europe, some jolt sends the country back to its medieval origins. Half a century of industrialization and modernization ended in the horrors of the Russian Revolution and Bolshevik tyranny. Three decades of struggle to overcome the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin’s brutal legacy seemed to bear fruit under Mikhail Gorbachev but ended in the collapse of 1991. Promising attempts to “Europeanize” the country in the 1990s eventually triggered the slide backward under Vladimir Putin.

Putin’s Russia does not resemble the communist dictatorship, but it is strangely archaic. In some ways, it seems better suited to the seventeenth century than to this century or the last one. Gone is the cultural capital of the imperial and Soviet times. Gone are the idealistic socialists and the enlightened bureaucrats. Gone are the notions of chivalry and honor that inspired Kornilov to try to save Russia from chaos. One does not even find the squeamishness that prevented the KGB from massacring the Russian opposition in August 1991, when a group of Soviet hard-liners failed to seize power from Gorbachev. Humanistic and enlightened impulses that for decades propelled Russia’s intellectual and social modernization are now underground. All that is left is a nearly operatic cast of figures: the isolated tsar, the supine patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, the treacherous courtiers, the money-grabbing warlords, and, finally, the audacious pretender—all of them acting according to the ancient scripts.

There are plenty of role models for Prigozhin in the history of the Smuta. He could be a modern Vasily Shuisky, the scheming and mendacious courtier who plotted to kill the Pretender. Another model could be the rebellious warlord and ex-prisoner Ivan Bolotnikov, who in August 1606 led a ragtag army to Moscow with the aim of killing the elites and electing a “people’s tsar.” Defeated by government troops, he was betrayed by his associates, blinded, and drowned. For a single day, Prigozhin became a pretender to the throne in Moscow—the embodiment of the hopes, expectations, and grievances of millions of people. Yet to the great frustration of many on all sides, he quickly shirked this role.

THE TRIANGLE OF STABILITY
The narratives of the Smuta say more about Russia today than the narratives of 1917, which are misleading for many reasons. First, there is a tsar in the Kremlin, not an impotent provisional government like the one in power in 1917. And nowhere—not even in the murkiest corners of Western libraries—are there Russian radicals such as Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky. Moreover, there can be no comparison between Prigozhin and Kornilov. The latter was ready to die for the country and for democratic principles and did so less than a year after his failed march to Petrograd—on another march to liberate Russia from the Bolsheviks. Prigozhin, by contrast, is a mercenary leader who does not believe in anything. He is a cross between a courtier and a mob boss. He was incensed when his enemies, Putin’s other courtiers, prevailed over him and decided to take away his business, his money, and his private army. He never intended to become the next tsar. And his mutiny was not a careful plot to seize power but rather a desperate act to prevent Wagner from being dissolved.

The Smuta also provides a useful framework for understanding both the brittleness and the resilience of the Russian state. In the early seventeenth century, stability depended on the interactions of four centers of power, three domestic and one foreign: the tsar, the elites, the people, and external enemies. During the Smuta, Russia was embroiled in almost constant wars with its Western neighbors, above all the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. The domestic triangle, however, was decisive in determining the outcome of this period. Everyone understood that without the tsar, Russia would fall apart. The Russian elites, however, feared their own population more than they feared foreign enemies, and they were prepared to accept foreign rule or at least to compromise with Western potentates in order to prevent a mass upheaval from below and the redistribution of wealth. Yet every time they supported a Western-backed pretender such as False Dmitry, the masses rallied around the tsar, religion, and Russian statehood. The civil war in Russia ended in a new Leviathan, a covenant between the elites, the people, and the tsar.

This domestic power triangle still holds sway over Russia today. The Prigozhin mutiny weakened the tsar, denting Putin’s authority and image. His wooden appearances on TV screens at times when most people were asleep called to mind the troubled days of the 1991–93 period. Putin did not know what to say, and even his warning about “another 1917” sounded feckless. One does not stop a coup by telling people how bad it would be if the plotters succeed. Putin did not lead and did not take full responsibility for the chaos. His threats rang hollow. As farcical as it was, therefore, the putsch made the Russian leader weaker than before.


The fact that Putin is weak does not mean the end of his rule is near.
Yet the fact that Putin is weak does not mean the end of his rule is near. Russian elites, the military, and the people did not side with an adventurous warlord against Putin because they rightfully suspected that squabble and chaos would only hurt them, leading to another Smuta with colossal financial losses and possibly violence. The mutiny ended before the Russians were forced to take sides, but Prigozhin never stood a chance of winning over both the elites in Moscow and the broader population.

The longer the war in Ukraine lasts, the greater the risk of another Smuta in Russia. Russian elites are once again divided from the masses, just as they were on the eve of the Time of Troubles. The figure of the tsar is the only thing that unites them and allows the state to function. But if Putin suddenly disappears from the picture, his courtiers will face a stark choice: go down the road of Godunov and plunge the country into chaos or circle the wagons, avoid an internecine struggle, and enable all groups to elect a new president in emergency national elections.

Two days after the Prigozhin mutiny fizzled out, Putin addressed the Russian people once again, praising everyone, even the Wagner fighters, for their patriotic and sensible behavior. But he also mentioned the Smuta, a term of warning that is still understood by all Russians. The prospect of a nuclear power sliding into a modern Time of Troubles should scare Western countries as it scares the Russian people. The odds of a quick transition from wartime autocracy to a more accommodating, liberal regime in Moscow are long. And they are made longer still by the scripts of Russian history.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/russias-new-time-troubles
Halfway through the article I thought- 'this author seems to want Putin out really badly, let me check out who he is'. Searching Google, it seems he lives in London and is predicting a Putin collapse since at least January 2022. I didn't search deeply cause that was enough. I mean I should've realized seeing its foreign affairs.com.

It's so easy to see through the western media now. They are so biased they've forgotten to even pretend.
 

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