Ramayana: History or Myth?

[Poseidon]

No strong proof exists.
Part myth.Part history.

 

[civfanatic]

Polynesians, Hawaii, Caste System, Incas, Aztec, Flag of Mexico.

Connect the dots.

Martians, Mount Meru, Namekians, Kumari Kandam, the Zerg.

Connect the dots.

 

[afako]

Martians, Mount Meru, Namekians, Kumari Kandam, the Zerg.

Connect the dots.

We have a certified nincompoop here!

Did you bother to do some research or pulled out of for trolling?

 

[Known_Unknown]

I think the discussion should be framed around the question of "How much of the Ramayana is actual historical fact". I don't think any sensible, rational person would accept that Hanuman flying off carrying an entire mountain or a 10-headed Ravana or a bird-human hybrid Jatayu were historical beings or events.

Obviously a lot of it is legend, but it could be possible that it is based on a real story.

I would think it is maybe 5% fact, with a lot of added masala to make it exciting! :thumb:

 

[aerokan]

I think the discussion should be framed around the question of "How much of the Ramayana is actual historical fact". I don't think any sensible, rational person would accept that Hanuman flying off carrying an entire mountain or a 10-headed Ravana or a bird-human hybrid Jatayu were historical beings or events.

Obviously a lot of it is legend, but it could be possible that it is based on a real story.

I would think it is maybe 5% fact, with a lot of added masala to make it exciting! :thumb:

If you replace the bolded words with "person who is ignorant of/incapable to understand a technologically superior and space faring civilization", imight agree with you

 

[drkrn]

Polynesians, Hawaii, Caste System, Incas, Aztec, Flag of Mexico.

Connect the dots.

oh please don't give me dots.i am poor at making lines
spare us your knowledge

 

[Razor]

If you replace the bolded words with "person who is ignorant of/incapable to understand a technologically superior and space faring civilization", imight agree with you

If they were technologically superior, he (hanuman) would have figured a way to get the right plant (sanjeevani) rather than pick the entire mountain and fly with it over the subcontinent (this could be done for example by mailing pictures of the herb over the internet ) . Picking the right plant would ensure that he could travel faster and have a better chance of saving Lakshman.

 

[drkrn]

If they were technologically superior, he (hanuman) would have figured a way to get the right plant (sanjeevani) rather than pick the entire mountain and fly with it over the subcontinent (this could be done for example by mailing pictures of the herb over the internet ) . Picking the right plant would ensure that he could travel faster and have a better chance of saving Lakshman.

in the story hanuman was given instructions from the royal physician of lord ravana about the looks of the plant.he says that its easily identifiable because it is bio-luminescent
but when he sees there many plants are luminiscent making the whole mountain glow in the night.sighting difficulty to identify it he picks up the whole mountain.it is said that he gets delayed on his journey buy a demon in disguise of a sage sent by ravan purposefully to delay his return thats why an act of desperation

 

[aerokan]

If they were technologically superior, he (hanuman) would have figured a way to get the right plant (sanjeevani) rather than pick the entire mountain and fly with it over the subcontinent (this could be done for example by mailing pictures of the herb over the internet ) . Picking the right plant would ensure that he could travel faster and have a better chance of saving Lakshman.

As 'drkrn' says.. there was a lot of confusion at that time. Let's say even if he got the 'picture by telepathic com-link' would hanuman be able to identify right away, not being a doctor? He took the best possible route of increasing laxman's survival by taking the entire mountain. He let the doctor pick the plant without taking any chances and reduced the risk of doubling the travel time.

Also we as a civilization has a capability to design stealth jets now.. does that mean you and me have that capability by default?

It's highly probable that he may not have reduced flight time by picking just one plant. Irrespective of the lift capacity, top speeds remain the same for most of the aircrafts.

 

[Known_Unknown]

If you replace the bolded words with "person who is ignorant of/incapable to understand a technologically superior and space faring civilization", imight agree with you

Superior, eh? Well, a superior civilization would have made sure Ravan didn't get anywhere close to Sita by installing some air defence systems like the S-300 or something!

 

[aerokan]

Superior, eh? Well, a superior civilization would have made sure Ravan didn't get anywhere close to Sita by installing some air defence systems like the S-300 or something!

First off.. Sita is not a royal queen at the time of abduction. They renounced all facilities when they went to forest. You are not gonna keep S-300 batteries outside of our ex-pm's house..are you??

Anyways,,as i said your understanding of technology is very limited. If you can't even imagine any possible system which are capable of defeating S-300 systems, then i don't have much to 'enlighten' you.

And yeah.. lakshman took your suggestion and used a force field barrier to prevent ravan from entering sita's house.. You should have heard about 'lakshman rekha'.. don't you? But then again, technology doesn't cover for all the aspects of human nature..

 

[Known_Unknown]

As 'drkrn' says.. there was a lot of confusion at that time. Let's say even if he got the 'picture by telepathic com-link' would hanuman be able to identify right away, not being a doctor? He took the best possible route of increasing laxman's survival by taking the entire mountain. He let the doctor pick the plant without taking any chances and reduced the risk of doubling the travel time.

Also we as a civilization has a capability to design stealth jets now.. does that mean you and me have that capability by default?

It's highly probable that he may not have reduced flight time by picking just one plant. Irrespective of the lift capacity, top speeds remain the same for most of the aircrafts.

There are so many holes in your theory (I sincerely hope that you're just being the Devil's advocate here, and you don't really believe this stuff) that it's leaking like the Brahmaputra in the middle of the monsoon!

First of all, are you forgetting that Hanuman was a demi-god? He wasn't an ordinary human (or indeed, an ordinary monkey ) or he wouldn't be able to lift a mountain, would he? Now as a demi-god, the ordinary limitations of time and space that apply to us mere mortals (and everything else in the universe) wouldn't apply to him! Why couldn't he have travelled into the past to make sure that Lakshman never got wounded in the first place? Why couldn't he create the plant out of thin air, or indeed, ask Ram, the avatar of Vishnu, aka the "preserver of the universe" to create it? Why couldn't he use telekinesis to get the entire mountain to him rather than fly to the mountain? Why didn't he teleport the doctor to the mountain so he could pick out the plant? There are an infinite number of ways in which he could have accomplished the task much easily rather than carrying the entire mountain!

First off.. Sita is not a royal queen at the time of abduction. They renounced all facilities when they went to forest. You are not gonna keep S-300 batteries outside of our ex-pm's house..are you??

Anyways,,as i said your understanding of technology is very limited. If you can't even imagine any possible system which are capable of defeating S-300 systems, then i don't have much to 'enlighten' you.

And yeah.. lakshman took your suggestion and used a force field barrier to prevent ravan from entering sita's house.. You should have heard about 'lakshman rekha'.. don't you? But then again, technology doesn't cover for all the aspects of human nature..

Why couldn't the lakshman rekha have been made such that Sita could not set foot outside it? Why wasn't there a security system in place to detect the "maya" of Ravan? Why wasn't there a minefield outside the ashram that got activated only by the presence of "mayavis" or evil forces? Why didn't Lakshman make a clone of himself to guard Sita? Why didn't Ram do the same? Why didn't they make Sita invisible so Ravan couldn't see her?

Seriously, the more you try to "explain" that legend as "fact", the more ridiculous it gets!

 

[Razor]

There are so many holes in your theory (I sincerely hope that you're just being the Devil's advocate here, and you don't really believe this stuff) that it's leaking like the Brahmaputra in the middle of the monsoon!

First of all, are you forgetting that Hanuman was a demi-god? He wasn't an ordinary human (or indeed, an ordinary monkey ) or he wouldn't be able to lift a mountain, would he? Now as a demi-god, the ordinary limitations of time and space that apply to us mere mortals (and everything else in the universe) wouldn't apply to him! Why couldn't he have travelled into the past to make sure that Lakshman never got wounded in the first place? Why couldn't he create the plant out of thin air, or indeed, ask Ram, the avatar of Vishnu, aka the "preserver of the universe" to create it? Why couldn't he use telekinesis to get the entire mountain to him rather than fly to the mountain? Why didn't he teleport the doctor to the mountain so he could pick out the plant? There are an infinite number of ways in which he could have accomplished the task much easily rather than carrying the entire mountain!


Seriously, the more you try to "explain" that legend as "fact", the more ridiculous it gets!

Come on dude, Hanuman's only a demi-god, cut him some slack.

Anyway, just read the wiki article:

When Lakshmana is severely wounded during the battle against Ravana, Hanuman is sent to fetch the Sanjivani, a powerful life-restoring herb, from Dronagiri mountain in the Himalayas, to revive him. Ravana realises that if Lakshmana dies, a distraught Rama would probably give up, and so he dispatches the sorcerer Kalanemi to intercept Hanuman.[27] Kalanemi, in the guise of a sage, deceives Hanuman, but Hanuman uncovers his plot with the help of an apsara, whom he rescues from her accursed state as a crocodile.[27]

Ravana, upon learning that Kalanemi has been slain by Hanuman, summons Surya to rise before its appointed time because the physician Sushena had said that Lakshmana would perish if untreated by daybreak. Hanuman realizes the danger, however, and, becoming many times his normal size, detains the Sun God to prevent the break of day. He then resumes his search for the precious herb, but, when he finds himself unable to identify which herb it is, he lifts the entire mountain and delivers it to the battlefield in Lanka. Sushena then identifies and administers the herb, and Lakshmana is saved. Rama embraces Hanuman, declaring him as dear to him as his own brother. Hanuman releases Surya from his grip, and asks forgiveness, as the Sun was also his Guru.

If Hanuman can grow large enough to detain the Sun, well then there is no point in me arguing. It's beyond my understanding. Maybe there is some deeper philosophical meaning or something.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Come on dude, Hanuman's only a demi-god, cut him some slack.

Anyway, just read the wiki article:


If Hanuman can grow large enough to detain the Sun, well then there is no point in me arguing. It's beyond my understanding. Maybe there is some deeper philosophical meaning or something.

It's called adding masala. Do you think a story without apsaras, magic, mayavis and ten-headed demons would have been popular enough to be passed down the generations? It would be boring and long forgotten.

(I'm not even going to go into the impossibility of "detaining the Sun from rising" ).

 

[LurkerBaba]

Thread closed since it's deviating into Tejo Mahalaya territory

 

[LurkerBaba]

Thread re-opened on request

 

[aerokan]

There are so many holes in your theory (I sincerely hope that you're just being the Devil's advocate here, and you don't really believe this stuff) that it's leaking like the Brahmaputra in the middle of the monsoon!

First of all, are you forgetting that Hanuman was a demi-god? He wasn't an ordinary human (or indeed, an ordinary monkey ) or he wouldn't be able to lift a mountain, would he? Now as a demi-god, the ordinary limitations of time and space that apply to us mere mortals (and everything else in the universe) wouldn't apply to him! Why couldn't he have travelled into the past to make sure that Lakshman never got wounded in the first place? Why couldn't he create the plant out of thin air, or indeed, ask Ram, the avatar of Vishnu, aka the "preserver of the universe" to create it? Why couldn't he use telekinesis to get the entire mountain to him rather than fly to the mountain? Why didn't he teleport the doctor to the mountain so he could pick out the plant? There are an infinite number of ways in which he could have accomplished the task much easily rather than carrying the entire mountain!

First off, all your assumptions of the definition of GOD and demi-god itself are imaginary. You need to do better than that to blow holes. Forget about Brahmaputra for a moment.. What will happen to all your questions based on the single assumption that gods have certain properties?

To be able to understand why things happened the way it happened, one of the prime variables is a context. If that is off the target, everything will be gibberish just like an encrypted communication without a decryption key.

Just to keep it simple to the level of the those who do not understand, the gods that you refer to are advanced beings who are/were able to harness other capabilities. Just as an example to help you understand, what would a 15th century person think if you suddenly land before him in a jet pack? With an ambiguous identity of 'known_unknown' you will become a god/demi-god instantly :thumb:

And if you look at the historic texts.. nobody said that since shiva is one of the very powerful gods, he can do anything. He too can't escape destiny. He has to face obstacles in his life like the rest.. It's just that he is better equipped to deal with the consequences by better predicting the positive probabilties and consequences with his enhanced capabilities.

On the direct questions you posed, does army commanders who have the launch codes for the nukes possess the nuclear tech? Likewise not all technologies are available for use with every important leader (let's say god/demi-god) in the forces. Also teleportation or other crucial technologies are generally energy-intensive. And don't forget the opposition is much stronger in terms of technology. If Hanuman is one of the prime commanders/generals does he go to Vishnu everytime an issue occurs? He is precisely one of the key figures in the war because of his capabilities. So he would have made a better judgement atleast if you don't think he made the best.

Why couldn't the lakshman rekha have been made such that Sita could not set foot outside it? Why wasn't there a security system in place to detect the "maya" of Ravan? Why wasn't there a minefield outside the ashram that got activated only by the presence of "mayavis" or evil forces? Why didn't Lakshman make a clone of himself to guard Sita? Why didn't Ram do the same? Why didn't they make Sita invisible so Ravan couldn't see her?

Seriously, the more you try to "explain" that legend as "fact", the more ridiculous it gets!

Assuming lakshman has all the capabilities, do you expect lakshman to create a copy of himself using good part of his energy and place sita under house arrest when she is doubting his intentions and go to search the enemy when he is sensing that something is off the mark? And Sita is not a slave.. she may not have the crown on her head, but she is still respected by lakshman as equivalent to his mother and it's higly disrespectful to put her in confinement against her free will especially when he doesn't know what he is against. You have to understand that it's peacetime and they are not expecting any hostilities of this kind from anyone at that time. Well..that's a start to begin with to spend some of your time to spend if you are really intersted to search for the truth.

 

[aerokan]

It's called adding masala. Do you think a story without apsaras, magic, mayavis and ten-headed demons would have been popular enough to be passed down the generations? It would be boring and long forgotten.

(I'm not even going to go into the impossibility of "detaining the Sun from rising" ).

Have you ever observed that gods, magic and everything has limitations? Have you ever wondered why other than brushing it off as masala? Have you ever considered the possibility of reaching most of the 'magical' technologies by the end of this century or before?

Regarding the detaining of the sun, have you ever asked what is the significance of the saving lakshman by daybreak? What does it mean? Is it the time that is considered when the doctor said by daybreak or is it the environmental aspect of rising sun that will prove fatal to lakshman? Without understanding the right context and the right meaning, it is not easy to comprehend the actions.

 

[Patriot]

There are so many holes in your theory (I sincerely hope that you're just being the Devil's advocate here, and you don't really believe this stuff) that it's leaking like the Brahmaputra in the middle of the monsoon!

First of all, are you forgetting that Hanuman was a demi-god? He wasn't an ordinary human (or indeed, an ordinary monkey ) or he wouldn't be able to lift a mountain, would he? Now as a demi-god, the ordinary limitations of time and space that apply to us mere mortals (and everything else in the universe) wouldn't apply to him! Why couldn't he have travelled into the past to make sure that Lakshman never got wounded in the first place? Why couldn't he create the plant out of thin air, or indeed, ask Ram, the avatar of Vishnu, aka the "preserver of the universe" to create it? Why couldn't he use telekinesis to get the entire mountain to him rather than fly to the mountain? Why didn't he teleport the doctor to the mountain so he could pick out the plant? There are an infinite number of ways in which he could have accomplished the task much easily rather than carrying the entire mountain!



Why couldn't the lakshman rekha have been made such that Sita could not set foot outside it? Why wasn't there a security system in place to detect the "maya" of Ravan? Why wasn't there a minefield outside the ashram that got activated only by the presence of "mayavis" or evil forces? Why didn't Lakshman make a clone of himself to guard Sita? Why didn't Ram do the same? Why didn't they make Sita invisible so Ravan couldn't see her?

Seriously, the more you try to "explain" that legend as "fact", the more ridiculous it gets!

Your comments are very disrespectful & unwarranted. You are trying to make joke out of religious beliefs. Joke can also be made on your beliefs. So please we respectful for others religious sentiments.

 

[Known_Unknown]

First off, all your assumptions of the definition of GOD and demi-god itself are imaginary. You need to do better than that to blow holes. Forget about Brahmaputra for a moment.. What will happen to all your questions based on the single assumption that gods have certain properties?

Well, if that's the case then they're not really fit for worship, are they? They're not Gods then, just superheroes with some limited set of powers.

Just to keep it simple to the level of the those who do not understand, the gods that you refer to are advanced beings who are/were able to harness other capabilities. Just as an example to help you understand, what would a 15th century person think if you suddenly land before him in a jet pack? With an ambiguous identity of 'known_unknown' you will become a god/demi-god instantly :thumb:

OK, so your version of "God" is nothing more than a mere superhero, like Spiderman or Superman. If that is the case, is it not absurd to give labels such as the "Preserver of the Universe" to someone who couldn't even preserve his own wife from another man?

And if you look at the historic texts.. nobody said that since shiva is one of the very powerful gods, he can do anything. He too can't escape destiny. He has to face obstacles in his life like the rest.. It's just that he is better equipped to deal with the consequences by better predicting the positive probabilties and consequences with his enhanced capabilities.

So is there a list of the "superpowers" of each of these so-called gods then? Because if not, then how do you know what they are capable of and not capable of? If the gods did not do something, then you say it was because it wasn't within their power, and if they did, then it's because it was. If we had a comprehensive list of what their powers actually are, then we could easily determine what they can and cannot do.

On the direct questions you posed, does army commanders who have the launch codes for the nukes possess the nuclear tech? Likewise not all technologies are available for use with every important leader (let's say god/demi-god) in the forces. Also teleportation or other crucial technologies are generally energy-intensive.

Teleportation is energy-intensive, huh? Compared to what? Stopping the rise of the sun?

Assuming lakshman has all the capabilities, do you expect lakshman to create a copy of himself using good part of his energy and place sita under house arrest when she is doubting his intentions and go to search the enemy when he is sensing that something is off the mark? And Sita is not a slave.. she may not have the crown on her head, but she is still respected by lakshman as equivalent to his mother and it's higly disrespectful to put her in confinement against her free will especially when he doesn't know what he is against. You have to understand that it's peacetime and they are not expecting any hostilities of this kind from anyone at that time. Well..that's a start to begin with to spend some of your time to spend if you are really intersted to search for the truth.

Why does making a clone of himself to guard his sister-in-law from harm equate to making her a "slave"? Was she a "slave" to Lakshman before he left to look for Ram? How about the 4 or 5 other ideas? He couldn't make her invisible? After having already faced Surpanakha and Khara, they were still not expecting any hostilities? If not, then what was the Lakshman Rekha for?

Have you ever observed that gods, magic and everything has limitations? Have you ever wondered why other than brushing it off as masala? Have you ever considered the possibility of reaching most of the 'magical' technologies by the end of this century or before?

As mentioned earlier, if the "Preserver of the Universe"'s powers are so limited that he cannot even preserve his own wife, then is he worthy of worship in the first place? On the one hand, you regard these beings as "divine", yet you impose countless limitations on them when you cannot explain simple inconsistencies in the story.

Have you given a thought to the fact that all you're doing is engaging in mental gymnastics to explain away the glaring gaps in the story just to maintain a facade of logic?

Regarding the detaining of the sun, have you ever asked what is the significance of the saving lakshman by daybreak? What does it mean? Is it the time that is considered when the doctor said by daybreak or is it the environmental aspect of rising sun that will prove fatal to lakshman? Without understanding the right context and the right meaning, it is not easy to comprehend the actions.

Well, you seem to have a much better understanding of the "meaning" of the text, so why don't you explain? Before you do though, you do understand that while "stopping the physical rise of the sun" in environmental terms is nearly impossible, what you're alluding to, i.e. "freezing time" itself is orders of magnitude higher in terms of impossibility?

Not to mention, both these actions would require far, far more energy to accomplish than "teleportation", which you thought was energy intensive and hence not feasible.

Your comments are very disrespectful & unwarranted. You are trying to make joke out of religious beliefs. Joke can also be made on your beliefs. So please we respectful for others religious sentiments.

Please go ahead and insult my beliefs. I am not a child who throws a tantrum every time someone questions what I believe in.