Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[Hari Sud]

The Koreans only got the order because they were willing to bribe a lot.

‘I would not say that. Because the bribe taker and bribe giver will both be hanged.

 

[Azaad]

Depends on the option. I mean MDL have already signed up with Naval group. Russia, Sweden and Germany have withdrawn. Germany now wants to do in G2G deal. Korea is also thinking about withdrawal and haven’t signed up with an builder yet.

One can play rummy with only 13 cards. These are the options for L&T.

MDL tie up with NG is also for future liscened production of additional Scorpenes. Sweden didn't show much interest since the beginning which was reciprocated by us. Besides we don't want the AIP tech ( Sterling Engines) they've on board their subs.

There's some confusion as to whether DSME is still participating or not. Probably they've been leaned on not to. They haven't signed up for a local production partner which can be taken as evidence of the fact that they've been leaned on. Apparently DSME has been taken over by Hanhwa which should explain why they're so co operative.

 

[WolfPack86]

L&T, Spain's Navantia sign agreement to bid for $5-billion submarine tender in India
Spain has become the second bidder in the 4.8 billion euros submarine tender for the Indian Navy, signing an agreement with Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and Navantia. The project aims to deliver six submarines equipped with Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP).

By Geeta Mohan: After Germany, Spain is now the second bidder in the 4.8 billion euros ($5.26 billion) submarine tender for the Indian Navy. On Monday, an agreement for the same was signed between engineering and construction major, Larsen & Toubro (LART.NS), and Spanish submarine manufacturer, Navantia.

On April 11 this year, the two had signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) to bid for the Indian Navy's submarine tender under Project-75 (India).

Monday's agreement was signed in the presence of SN Subrahmanyan, L&T CEO & MD and Augustin Alvarez Blanco, Naval Construction vice president, and Member of the Board – Navantia.

José Mara Ridao Domnguez, Ambassador of Spain in India, and Captain (Navy) Fernando Alvarez, Spanish Defence Attaché, along with senior officials from both L&T Defence and Navantia were also present at the event, held in the premises of the Spanish Embassy in New Delhi.

Speaking to India Today, Spain's envoy to India, Ambassador José Mara Ridao said, "To begin with, I have a lot of respect for all the bidders and it's great that India has such great options. Several elements make our offer competitive and convenient. Firstly, it's a state-owned company, so it's an engagement of the government. Secondly, the Spanish offer is the most advanced in the world."




He also added that this would not just be a commercial deal but also a diplomatic issue.

PROJECT 75 (INDIA)

The project requires the Indian bidder to tie up with a Foreign Collaborator (FC) and execute the program for delivery of six conventional submarines equipped with Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) while achieving targetted Indigenous Content.

Expected to be valued at over Euro 4.8 billion, the project is India's largest defence acquisition project.

This would also be followed by a 30-year lifecycle sustenance contract of similar value.

P75(I) would be the first program to be processed under the ambitious Strategic Partnership (SP) model of the acquisition of the Ministry of Defence.

As a joint venture and pushing 'Make in India' forward, Spain is looking at technology transfer for India with L&T building the submarines, while Navantia would design them based on the Spanish state-owned shipbuilder's S80 class of submarines and provide the air-independent propulsion system that lets submarines remain underwater longer, officials said.

"Yes, of course, this will not be the first time. We have an old program with 56 Airbus planes from Spain. We've proven that we are engaged with this idea of 'Make in India' and the transfer of technology to India. This is the second time. The more India will bring stability to this part of the world, the more Spain will be part of this global peace," said Ambassador Ridao.

"The agreement ensures a total transfer of technology on all aspects of the submarine including the AIP to L&T as early as possible," said SN Subrahmanyan, CEO & MD, L&T.

"One of the important parts of this programme is the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP). They have an AIP which is a working system working more efficiently than other such systems existing worldwide," he added.

As per the agreement, Spanish government-owned shipyard Navantia would carry out the design of P75(I) submarines based on its S80 class of submarines, the first of which was launched in 2021 and is undergoing sea trials prior to its delivery to the Spanish Navy at the end of 2023. Apart from the S80 class, Navantia has been involved in the design and construction of the Scorpéne class of submarines, together with DCNS (Now Naval Group) of France, which has been exported to Chile and Malaysia.

Navantia has also been involved in the Scorpene submarines (Kalvari class) built in India, including handholding of the Indian yard.

"It gives us great joy to be in a position to be the design and technology partner for P75(I). We are also in collaboration with L&T for the Landing Platform Dock (LPD) program whose tender is eagerly awaited. With these two prestigious programs for the Indian Navy, Navantia is proud to be making a key contribution towards fulfilling the defence needs of India, a nation with which Spain shares an excellent relationship," Naval Construction vice president and Member of the Board – Navantia, Alvarez Blanco, said.

In March, India approved a budget of 560 billion rupees ($6.8 billion) for its navy, which has 16 conventional submarines, 11 of which are more than two decades old, along with two indigenous nuclear-powered submarines.

L&T, Spain's Navantia sign agreement to bid for $5-billion submarine tender in India

Spain has become the second bidder in the 4.8 billion euros submarine tender for the Indian Navy, signing an agreement with Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and Navantia. The project aims to deliver six submarines equipped with Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP).

www.indiatoday.in

 

[jai jaganath]

The same argument applies to Korean fighter (very new) but they managed a sale in comparison to HAL.

HAL track record is not the best and it’s sales techniques are not the greatest.

Nah the contracts won by fa-50 was specifically training purpose
It doesn't have significant fighting capabilities
Tejas was made keeping combat in mind
Now u guys will ask why will someone go for training capable aircraft when at approx same amount u can get combat capable aircraft
That I don't know why
Maybe cost factor as we might not be aware
Or American influence or anything else

 

[Blademaster]

MDL tie up with NG is also for future liscened production of additional Scorpenes. Sweden didn't show much interest since the beginning which was reciprocated by us. Besides we don't want the AIP tech ( Sterling Engines) they've on board their subs.

There's some confusion as to whether DSME is still participating or not. Probably they've been leaned on not to. They haven't signed up for a local production partner which can be taken as evidence of the fact that they've been leaned on. Apparently DSME has been taken over by Hanhwa which should explain why they're so co operative.

Azaad, check this article out:

A COMPARATIVE BETWEEN THE U-212A AND S-80+ SUBMARINES

A comparative between the Spanish S-80 class submarine and the Type 212 submarine as operated by the Italian navy by Lt Bernal of the Spanish Navy posted aboard the Italian submarine Todaro

foronaval.com

Sailing aboard has allowed me to compare three different platforms, the S-70, the U-212A and the S-80, although it is true that the latter only theoretically. Having been able to see the insides of the Type 212 and knowing first-hand those of the S-80 is what has encouraged me to write this article.

Both submarines have similar sonar technology, both are equipped with cylindrical, flank, towed, passive rangefinder and interceptor sonar among others. Both are fitted with AIP technology, although it is true that the S-80 not at first, but let’s things get their course. Both have a modern platform control system and a state-of-the-art combat system that includes the latest technology to practice of TMA (Target Motion Analysis) based underwater tactics.

However, there are small but at the same time notable differences that, in my opinion, place the S-80 above the U-212A. The missile launch capability may be the most obvious, but not the only one, although it is true that the U-212As could acquire this capability in future modernizations.

● DIESEL GENERATOR
I consider this to be the Achilles heel of the U-212A; Having only one diesel generator has two very significant drawbacks: the first is that snorkeling takes forever, spending too much time at periscope depth performing noisy operations. The second drawback is that by having only one diesel they do not have a real back up system; Indeed, they can use the AIP to propel the ship, but this too is limited.

The U-212A’s AIP technology is based on a chemical reaction based on hydrogen and oxygen. This provides the submarine with sufficient electrical current to propel the submarine, enough but not in excess. That is, if for any reason we must increase the speed, the AIP simply cannot by itself and the submarine must consume electricity from mixed sources (AIP and batteries).

This means that, in practice, the U-212A has no real redundancy when charging the batteries. It only has one diesel and if it fails, everything is at the expense of an AIP system that is not capable of generating the same amount of current as the diesel generator. It is still too early to establish the amount of current that the S-80 AIP system will be able to generate, but one thing is clear, the S-80, with three diesel generators, solves with guarantee the two deficiencies raised, both redundancy and current generation capacity, the latter resulting in significantly shorter snorkelling time.

● AIR CONDITIONING (A/C)
As with the diesel generator, they only have one A / C unit. The way I see it, this is another serious redundancy problem.

During the DYNAMIC MANTA-21 ASW exercises, the condition of maximum silence was established, which lasted for quite some time. This condition leads to the shutdown of the A /c and the temperature in the CIC rose considerably. The hotness I went through did nothing but alert me to the temperature that the electronic equipment that surrounded me would be reaching.

The S-80, with thirteen independent air conditioners distributed throughout the ship and a cooling system dedicated to the combat system, also has more than enough redundancy in this regard.

● CREW SPACES
The U-212A has a very limited space for the crew, during the period of my commission we were thirty-one people on board and ten had to hot bunkt. There are only twenty-six bunks and each shift has 12 men, so the submarine is designed to work with two watches (24 on guard and 26 beds available). In my opinion, this is an excessively demanding organization. At the end of the navigation, fatigue was evident on everyone’s faces. In the case of the S-80, the submarine is equipped with 46 bunks and requires 11 men to operate.

This means that going to three watches requires a minimum of 35 people to crew her (33 standing guard, with both the commander and the cook exempt). In short, the ship is designed to sail on three watches, a much less demanding situation than that aboard her Italian colleague. Sleep is a weapon.

● CONCLUSION
These are the four main differences that I have found between each one and that makes me choose the Spanish design.

Both are excellent vessels: one has 19 years of experience behind it, which makes it a platform with proven capabilities, while the other still has everything to prove and, luckily, her time has come.

Based on the above, I feel that we should go for the S-80 plus design.

 

[Azaad]

Azaad, check this article out:

A COMPARATIVE BETWEEN THE U-212A AND S-80+ SUBMARINES

A comparative between the Spanish S-80 class submarine and the Type 212 submarine as operated by the Italian navy by Lt Bernal of the Spanish Navy posted aboard the Italian submarine Todaro

foronaval.com

View attachment 214019

































Based on the above, I feel that we should go for the S-80 plus design.

This HDW Type 212 of the Italian Navy is of the same vintage & specification as our Scorpenes viz they're a 20 yr old design. Besides the IN is looking for sub with a displacement between 3000-3500 tons (which the Type 212 certainly isn't) .

That would be the Type 216 or a derivative of it which as of today is a paper submarine . Hence we don't know it's tech specs except whatever is in the public domain given their participation a few yrs earlier in a similar requirement of the Royal Australian Navy ( which I doubt except for very basic information ) which either was the Type 216 or a derivative of the Type 216 . Incidentally , that RAN tender was won by NG who subsequently were booted out of the project courtesy a new arrangement between the Anglosphere - AUKUS.

 

[Fatalis]

If things start moving in positive direction by next year then we can see the first sub in water within next 10 years.

 

[WolfPack86]

Amur 950
Diesel-electric submarine

Use
The submarine is designed to destroy enemy submarines, surface ships, vessels, land targets and conduct reconnaissance missions.

Specifications

Displacement (normal)	1065 m3
Length	56.8 m
Pressure hull diameter	5.65 m
Maximum diving depth	300 m
Endurance	30 days

Full sibmerged speed	20 knots
Complement	19

Main propulsion
Armament

4 x 533 mm torpedo tubes
Number of vertical missile launchers	10
Total number of missiles/torpedoes/mines	16

Amur 950

Diesel-electric submarine

www.aoosk.ru

 

[Fatalis]

If MDL has already collaborated with WDB for P-76 then P-75I should go to L&T and then we can have what the IN wanted from very long i.e. two production lines for submarines.

 

[Azaad]

If MDL has already collaborated with WDB for P-76 then P-75I should go to L&T and then we can have what the IN wanted from very long i.e. two production lines for submarines.

How will you sustain those 2 lines or more accurate description would be production centers? We don't have plans for an extensive conventional sub requirement nor can we rely on exports for that would require us to prove our credentials which apart from being time consuming is easier said than done as of now . Besides MDL Mazgaon has 5 lines for construction & overhaul / maintenance as of now .

We need 2 lines of subs but 1 for conventional & another for the SSN & SSBN. This requirement of N propulsion subs can be 2 , split between SBC Vizag & L&T.

 

[Fatalis]

MDL has submitted the price bid for 6 number of AIP fitted submarine…that is P-75I, bids closed on 1st August 2023. MDL was earlier going to tie up with South Korean firm DSME for P-75I, DSME had shown interest in tieing up with MDL, but after the acquisition by Hanwa, they are no longer interested in the project. Accordingly, MDL tied up with the German firm TKMS, while L&T has partnered up with Spanish firm Navantia. MDL has stated that the 43,000cr allocated under AoN would not suffice for the Project-75I. Order placement would take at least 18-24 months from now with first submarine to be delivered in 6 years of contract signing, and then subsequently 1 submarine each year. The project would take around 11 years from the contract signing to delivery of the sixth submarine.

 

[Freedom Thru Firepower]

 

[WolfPack86]

GERMANY, SPAIN & L&T JUMPS INTO INDIA'S SUBMARINE DEAL; TO CONTEST FOR THE MEGA $4.8 BILLION PROJECT
Two European defence manufacturing giants are seeking to win a Rs 40,000 crore ($4.8 billion) order to build submarines in India as the South Asian nation looks to strengthen its navy to counter China’s expanding naval presence in the Indo-Pacific region.

Indian officials are currently evaluating competing bids to build six of the vessels in the country, senior Indian officials aware of the developments said, asking not to be named because discussions are private. One bid is from Germany’s Thyssenkrupp AG along with Mumbai-based Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited, with the other was submitted by Spain’s Navantia in partnership with private shipyard Larsen & Toubro, the people said.

India’s Navy will go for the best and largest transfer of technology that is being offered, the people said. When announcing the tender in July, the Ministry of Defence said it expected substantial technology transfer to Indian shipyards apart from providing the submarines with air independent propulsion — a technology that helps conventional vessels stay underwater for longer.

India is looking for a reliable alternative for military hardware as supplies from Russia, its biggest source of weapons, is mired in a protracted war in Ukraine and faces sanctions from the US and its allies. India, which is part of the so-called Quad grouping that includes Japan, US and Australia, is also projecting itself as a manufacturing hub and pushing for technology transfers to build complex defence platforms such as fighter aircraft and submarines.

India’s Ministry of Defence, Larsen & Toubro, and MDL did not respond to requests for comment. Thyssenkrupp confirmed the bid and referred to a June 7 statement while Navantia didn’t respond to an emailed request for comment.

As Beijing has ramped up its naval capacity in recent years, India’s aging fleet of submarines is no longer seen as enough to discourage China’s presence in the Indian Ocean. India’s navy needs a minimum of 24 conventional submarines, the government in New Delhi has said, but currently has only has 16. Of these, most are more than 30 years old and likely to be decommissioned in the next few years. Last July, India’s Ministry of Defence issued a tender inviting global defence manufacturers to design, develop and manufacture conventional diesel-electric-powered submarines with either government-owned Mazagon Dock Shipyard Limited or Larsen & Toubro, one of India’s biggest construction companies.

The aim is to progressively build homemade capabilities to “manufacture complex weapon systems,” India’s Ministry of Defence Ministry said when announcing the global tenders.

Germany, Spain & L&T Jumps Into India's Submarine Deal; To Contest For The Mega $4.8 Billion Project

Two European defence manufacturing giants are seeking to win a Rs 40,000 crore ($4.8 billion) order to build submarines in India as the Sout...

www.indiandefensenews.in

 

[WolfPack86]

Germany Offers ‘Bigger’ 214 Version Of HDW-Class Submarines To Indian Navy To Counter Pakistan, China
Germany’s ThyssenKrupp AG has offered India the bigger 214 version of HDW-class submarines. Conventional diesel submarines are on offer for a $4.8 billion deal for six submarines under Project 75I.

As against the required 24 conventional submarines, the Indian submarine fleet has only 16 submarines, and apart from the six recently-built submarines, the rest are over 30 years old and approaching their decommissioning date.

Considering it took 11 years for the first Scorpene class submarine to enter the Indian Navy’s fleet after signing the deal, the subs to be built under Project 75I are at least a decade away from entering operations.

The Indian government’s thrust on ‘Make in India’ indicates that the Indian Navy will go with the bidder offering the best and largest technology transfer.

While announcing the tender in July, the Ministry of Defence said it expected substantial technology transfer to Indian shipyards apart from providing the submarines with Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP). The AIP technology helps conventional vessels stay underwater for longer.

“The existing 214 is a standard design, which will need some modification to meet the (Indian) Navy’s requirements. It is not unusual. The Type 209s that India got from Germany in the mid-80s and built two of it in India were also modified to Indian specifications,” a ThyssenKrupp official told the EurAsian Times.

The HDW Class 214 submarines are single-hull, one-compartment submarines that fuse the design principles of the HDW Class 209 family and the outstanding features of the HDW Class 212A boats.

The Type 214 is a class of diesel-electric submarines developed exclusively for export by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW). As an export design, it lacks some of the classified technologies of the Type 212, such as the non-magnetic steel hull, making it difficult to detect using a magnetic anomaly detector.

Increased diving depths, the modular weapon and sensor mix, and the fully integrated AIP features make the HDW Class 214 essential for augmenting India’s naval strength as the Chinese submarines are making an unprecedented foray into the Indian Ocean Region (IOR).

An AIP enhances a submarine’s underwater endurance between battery charges by three to four times, thus reducing its vulnerability to detection. As the Chinese naval presence increases in the Indian Ocean, submarines with AIP can monitor them much better without getting detected.

The Germans have been pioneers in successfully operationalizing a Fuel cell AIP system on board their submarines, which Israel, Germany, and Turkey are also using. The South Korean AIP system has also been developed from the German one.

The other contender in the fray is Spain’s Navantia. Both companies have joined hands with Indian companies – ThyssenKrupp has collaborated with the Mumbai-based Mazagon Dockyard Limited, and Navantia has partnered with private shipyard Larsen and Toubro.

Navantia would design the submarines based on its S80 class of submarines, the first of which was launched in 2021 and is undergoing sea trials before its delivery to the Spanish Navy at the end of 2023. The Spanish company is already a proven supplier of India’s growing naval industrial base, having been involved in the Scorpene submarines (Kalvari-class) built in India, including handholding of the Indian yard.

In September 2023, Navantia completed the factory acceptance tests of the AIP BEST (Bio-Ethanol Stealth Technology) system for the S-80 submarines in a unique testing facility.

This will allow Navantia to finally verify the performance and operational capabilities of the AIP in a simulated operating environment, i.e., on land but with a high degree of fidelity to the demanding conditions that the system will have to withstand during a real mission.

Only Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems and South Korea’s Daewoo Shipbuilding have SSK designs with installed and functioning AIPs in their navies. “ThyssenKrupp claims to have supplied 70 percent of the non-nuclear submarine fleet globally from its shipyards.

Its HDW Fuel Cell Air-independent Propulsion system has achieved a low noise and infrared signature, and the technology is available,” Commander Milind Kulshreshta (Retired) told the EurAsian Times. He is a specialist in warfare tactics, including sub-surface.

AIP-powered conventional diesel-electric submarines (SSK) are midway between nuclear-powered boats and non-AIP SSKs. It allows an SSK to remain submerged for 10 to 14 days without needing to surface to recharge its batteries when it’s vulnerable to detection by enemy anti-submarine warfare boats.

Other SSKs can stay underwater for roughly 48 hours. The fuel-cell-based AIP is unique, as it generates its hydrogen requirement on board.

India Levels Up Underwater Game
China’s submarine force makes even the world powers apprehensive of its sheer numbers. Its submerged force has 76 platforms – comprising 8 SSBNs (ballistic missile submarines), 13 SSNs (nuclear-powered attack submarines), and 55 SSKs (diesel-electric submarines).

Beijing makes no bones about its intentions to dominate the Indo-Pacific and, more specifically, the Indian Ocean Region. India’s submarine capability remains woefully short, with only 16 conventional and one SSBN (INS Arihant). One SSN Akula class submarine on lease from Russia is yet to arrive.

A general naval rule-of-thumb is that for every vessel operating, two more are required – one preparing for deployment and one standing down from recent operations. The numbers are needed to keep up with the maintenance and crew’s rest and training schedule.

During peacetime, only one-third of the fleet is expected to be deployed. More vessels can be deployed in wartime, but it is still prudent to assess the availability realistically. The Chinese Navy is not just forging ahead with the induction of submarines in its fleet but also equipping India’s neighbor Pakistan with state-of-the-art technology.

The coming of AIP technology to the Indian Navy will put its fleet in a better position than Pakistan, with all three of its French Agosta-90B (PNS Khalid, Saad, and Hamza) powered by AIPs.

Pakistan is also expected to receive eight 39 A Yuan-class AIP-powered submarines by the end of 2023 under a US$5 billion deal with China.

German Dilemma
Two years ago, when India opened the tender, the German shipbuilder showed no interest in jointly manufacturing submarines with India.

However, the Russian-Ukraine war made Germany come out of the shadows of World War II and assume a more assertive role in leading the defenses against Russia and, hitherto, China, which adopted a more hostile attitude in the Indo-Pacific region.

The West is waking up to the fact that a strong India is their best bet against a belligerent China in the Indo-Pacific. The ThyssenKrupp will, jointly with MDL, bid for the US$5.2 billion project for the Indian Navy.

India purchased four Type 1500 conventional submarines from West Germany’s HDW in 1981 to acquire submarine-building know-how. But, the Submarine Design Group of the Indian Navy could not absorb the capability to design or develop a submarine.

The HDW submarines were accompanied by a detailed plan to build the fifth and sixth submarines indigenously. The project fizzled out as the company got blacklisted in India in 1987 on suspicion of bribery charges.

For a long time, India has been trying to get this critical technology from Germany, France, and Russia. In 2005, India inked a deal with the Franco-Spanish consortium Armaris to build six Scorpene conventional submarines.

The fifth Scorpene class submarine was commissioned in the Indian Navy in January 2023. The subs are also without AIPs, and plans are afoot to retrofit the vessels with the technology. The Scorpene Class will be retrofitted with the indigenously developed AIP in the advanced testing stages.

Germany Offers 'Bigger' 214 Version Of HDW-Class Submarines To Indian Navy To Counter Pakistan, China

Germany’s ThyssenKrupp AG has offered India the bigger 214 version of HDW-class submarines. Conventional diesel submarines are on offer for a $4.8 billion deal for six submarines under Project 75I. As against the required 24 conventional submarines, the Indian submarine fleet has only 16...

www.eurasiantimes.com

.

 

[WolfPack86]

Indian Defence Updates : 6 S-80 Under P-75I,TEDBF by 2028,Akash Destroys 4 Targets,Stryker New Offer

 

[WolfPack86]

सस्ते Price और Transfer Of Technology में ले लो हमारा Submarine

 

[Tshering22]

Depends on the option. I mean MDL has already signed up with Naval Group. Russia, Sweden and Germany have withdrawn. Germany now wants to do a G2G deal. Korea is also thinking about withdrawing and hasn’t signed up with a builder yet.

One can play rummy with only 13 cards. These are the options for L&T.

I wonder why we are not engaging Japan. Their Taigei-class submarines are the most advanced attack submarines available in the market and the Japanese have expressed interest in working with us in the past. Their only concern is the lack of experience by Kawasaki Heavy Industries (KHI) to participate in a foreign tendering process for defence, which can easily be addressed.

If we have to include the diversification card, we will have to move to a more expeditious process and G2G is the safest. It means that the Government of India requests the Government of Japan to be the intermediary rather than risking scam allegations by negotiating directly with Kawasaki.

Submarine deals are not just going to be about the purchase but with MDL and KHI working together. This will have immense benefits for our future class of attack submarines.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I wonder why we are not engaging Japan. Their Taigei-class submarines are the most advanced attack submarines available in the market and the Japanese have expressed interest in working with us in the past. Their only concern is the lack of experience by Kawasaki Heavy Industries (KHI) to participate in a foreign tendering process for defence, which can easily be addressed.

If we have to include the diversification card, we will have to move to a more expeditious process and G2G is the safest. It means that the Government of India requests the Government of Japan to be the intermediary rather than risking scam allegations by negotiating directly with Kawasaki.

Submarine deals are not just going to be about the purchase but with MDL and KHI working together. This will have immense benefits for our future class of attack submarines.

They are very very expensive. Sometimes it’s not easy to make subs with foreign customers in mind. Scorpenes are made with foreign clients in mind and sometimes their supply chains are extensive. For example, Thales is already in India, and they can make sonars in India if required as part of sourcing rules. Japanese have no equivalent here. That makes their equipment costly.

Moreover until unless Japanese govt absorbs or subsidies some costs, their subs can never be cheap. They would have to create entire ecosystem in India, plus they would even charge for translation of documents. Not worth it. Sometimes their tech is shared from US or another country and they need to get approval from that host country to sell it to India.

I remember an scare when I was working on a project to create second manufacturing location in Vietnam, fixtures, softwares were all ready, then at the last min someone asked the question is this product cleared to be manufactured in Vietnam with its associated IP and software package. Turned out it was not, permission was later obtained which delayed our project by 2 weeks. It’s not top secret or huge but it’s still required

 

[IndianHawk]

I wonder why we are not engaging Japan. Their Taigei-class submarines are the most advanced attack submarines available in the market and the Japanese have expressed interest in working with us in the past. Their only concern is the lack of experience by Kawasaki Heavy Industries (KHI) to participate in a foreign tendering process for defence, which can easily be addressed.

If we have to include the diversification card, we will have to move to a more expeditious process and G2G is the safest. It means that the Government of India requests the Government of Japan to be the intermediary rather than risking scam allegations by negotiating directly with Kawasaki.

Submarine deals are not just going to be about the purchase but with MDL and KHI working together. This will have immense benefits for our future class of attack submarines.

Japanese are trying to mimic nuclear submarine endurance with their taigei class. We don't need that since we are building a separate fleet of SSN . Our diesel submarines will not go far beyond our shores. So we can do with something cheaper and more reasonable.

 

[Joydeepghosh1976]

Common Sense Dictates P75I be 9 Super Scorpene Submarine Built by Mazagaon Docks Limited

Common Sense Dictates P75I be 9 Super Scorpene Submarine Built by Mazagaon Docks Limited

1. As Mazagaon Docks is building its last 1 Scorpene, Govt of India has given the nod to the P75I submarine project for 50000 crores. Idea...

rbt-defense.blogspot.com