Project-75I class SSK Submarines

WolfPack86

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India’s submarine plans hit by dwindling fleet as Navy decommissions INS Sindhudhvaj
New Delhi: Even as the Navy decommissioned INS Sindhudhvaj, a Kilo-class submarine acquired from Russia in 1987, on Saturday, India’s struggle with its three-decade-old plan to shore up under-water capabilities continues.

India is currently left with 15 conventional diesel-electric submarines, seven of which are of the Russian Kilo class.

Under the ambitious 30 year old plan that ends in 2030, India was to build 24 submarines — 18 conventional submarines and six nuclear-powered submarines (SSNs) — as an effective deterrent against China and Pakistan.

The current strength, however, is nowhere near the envisaged plan.

Dubbed the ‘Kilo’ class by NATO, India had acquired 8 of the submarines, designated 877 EKM, between 1986 and 1991. Two more were acquired between 1998 and 2000.

The ‘Kilo’ class is the most common conventional submarine in the world, with nearly 60 of them in service with various navies.

Of the 10 that India had, it had lost INS Sindhurakshak, a ‘Kilo’ class submarine, in a fire accident in 2013. Another submarine, INS Sindhuvir, was handed over to the Myanmar Navy in 2020 as part of a bilateral defence collaboration.

Besides the seven Kilo class, India has four Type 209 submarines of German origin and four of the indigenously manufactured Scorpene class of French origin. Two more Scorpene submarines will be delivered to the Indian Navy by 2023 end.

India also has INS Arihant, a nuclear-powered ballistic missile carrying submarine (SSBN). A second submarine of this class, named Arighat was set to be commissioned but there is no clarity on its status.

As a stop-gap arrangement to maintain the minimum deterrence when it comes to submarines, India is carrying out a second medium refit of four Kilo class submarines.

A medium refit is usually done once in a submarine’s 30-year life but the Indian Navy’s decision will add 10 more years to the life of the Kilo class – thereby, arresting the shortfall till new ones are commissioned.

There are multiple plans that the navy is focusing on – Project 75 India, Project 76 and the secretive submarine project.

Project 75 India
India’s ambitious plans to build six new conventional submarines with Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP) under Project 75 India remains stuck.

The P75I project, which is being pursued under “Strategic Partnership” – to be built in India through a collaboration between a foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) and an Indian entity – remains in limbo because multiple foreign companies have chosen to stay away.

The OEMs in contention were Russia’s Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau, Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, France’s Naval Group, Spain’s Navantia, South Korea’s Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering and Swedish firm SAAB.

SAAB was the first to exit from the race in 2019, even before a formal tender was issued, citing “unbalance” in strategic partnership.

The Russians have also expressed their inability to be part of the project, saying that they are willing to go in for a government-to- government deal for joint design and manufacturing of submarines.

The Russians are believed to have also offered six new improved Kilo class submarines to India, deliveries of which it said will be fast tracked, but the Indian Navy is not so keen.

The other OEMS in contention, including the French and the German firms, are also said to have expressed their inability to be part of the project.

Sources in the defence and security establishment said the French have expressed their inability because the tender issued by the Request for proposal (RFP) calls for a proven AIP system already in service. Only the Germans and the South Koreans meet this requirement.

The sources, however, said the Germans have also expressed their inability because they feel that the strategic partnership is skewed in favour of the Indian entity which they have the majority share in the joint venture. In contrast, the OEM is to be held responsible for delivery and even shortfalls.

Such has been poor response that the Navy has gone ahead and extended the date for submission of bids to end of December this year from the already extended date of June end.

The foreign companies have sought tweaking of the strategic partnership as well as removal of the clause for an in service AIP system.

Project 76
While India has managed to design and build its own nuclear submarine with help from the Russians, the country has never designed or manufactured a conventional submarine.

Sources said that the Naval Design Bureau is working on a conventional diesel-electric submarine with AIP technology that will be the future of India’s submarine plans.

“There are a number of factors that go into designing a submarine. Project 76 will be an in-house project. We are now focusing on the systems and the technology that the submarine must have and are designing the submarine around that,” a source said.

Another source said that the design phase should be completed in another year and half.

India already operates the INS Arihant, which comes under the Strategic Forces Command and not the direct purview of the navy.

According to defence sources, the Narendra Modi government is keen on more nuclear powered submarines (SSNs) which operate silently and remain under water for longer durations.

As per the plan, India is to build six nuclear powered submarines. The country will also be getting a leased Russian nuclear submarine by 2025 at the earliest.

India has been leasing Akula class Russian nuclear submarines for years for training and familiarisation process.

ThePrint had reported in 2019 that India and Russia have signed a US$3 billion deal for the lease of a third nuclear-powered attack submarine — Chakra III.

The Chakra II has already returned to Russia. The original INS Chakra initially came to India on a three-year lease starting in 1988.

The Chakra series are used to train crews for India’s own fleet of SSBNs. India’s first indigenously built SSBN, INS Arihant, entered service in 2016. A second, Arighat, was launched in 2017.

Two more SSBNs are under construction at the Shipbuilding Centre in Visakhapatnam.

(Edited by Tony Rai)
 

MonaLazy

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Korea & Spain are still in the race!

Korea and Spain defence majors ready to participate in 75 (I) submarine project
South Korean Daewoo and Spanish Navantia have proven air independent propulsion technology and are willing to build long endurance submarines under strategic partnership model with Indian MDL and L&T defence majors.

1658233723298.png


Indian Navy's Scorpene class diesel attack submarine patrolling waters outside Mumbai harbour.
Updated on Jul 19, 2022 08:11 AM IST
ByShishir Gupta
Even though the Defence Ministry has again extended the deadline for submitting the Request for Proposals (RFP) for the advanced submarine project to November 30, South Korean Daewoo and Spanish Navantia has shown interest in building the long endurance diesel submarine under the strategic partnership model with India. The RFP was first issued in July 2021 and extended to November 30, 2022, from June 30, 2022, deadline.
The decision to extend the deadline was taken as certain clauses relating to “joint and several penalties” needs to be amended in the RFP document. The amended clauses will be taken up by the Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC) for approval shortly. Under the strategic partnership model, India has identified Mazagoan Docks Limited (MDL) and Larsen & Toubro (L&T) to tie up with foreign defence majors in South Korea, Spain, Germany, France, and Russia to build six air independent propulsion (AIP) diesel attack submarines for the Indian Navy at the cost of over ₹40,000 crore.
As of now, South Korean Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering and Spanish company Navantia, who have proven AIP technology has shown interest in building the submarines under Project 75 India of the Indian Navy.

While the national security planners had considered to extend the on-going Project 75 diesel attack submarine project by extending the production line at MDL to three more submarines, the move was over-ruled in favour of the fuel-based AIP project as the latter have higher endurance and more potent.
In layman terms, a diesel attack submarine must come to surface once a day to charge its diesel batteries, while the AIP submarine must surface once a week to do the same. Hence, the AIP equipped submarine with land attack ballistic missile onboard is a more potent weapon in equatorial waters due to lateral inversion in the tropics.
While French Naval Group, Russian Rosoboronexport and TKMS Germany have not shown interest with French now focusing on nuclear powered sub-surface platforms and Germany using latest lithium cell technology, the South Korean and Spanish defence majors are keen to participate in the project.
The South Korean defence major Daewoo has already commissioned the first AIP equipped submarine Dosan Ahn Changho in 2019, while Spanish Isaac Peral was launched in April 22, 2021 at Cartagena Shipyards. Both the submarines have land attack missiles including ballistic and cruise missiles on board.
The Indian Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) has also developed the AIP technology and will be retrofitted on Project 75 submarines when they come for mid-life upgrade. The first of the six indigenous Scorpene class submarine, INS Kalveri, was commissioned in the Indian Navy in 2017. Three more have been commissioned in the Indian Navy since then.


 

Hari Sud

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The key in Submarine 75(I) project other than durability and reliability is operational AIP system. Unless the submarine supplier demonstrates a successful AIP system, the contract is no go. The delay in awarding the contract is mostly due to that. The desktop naval warriors are shedding crocodile tears for the delay, but it is no go without a proper, working AIP system.
 

BON PLAN

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Korea & Spain are still in the race!

Korea and Spain defence majors ready to participate in 75 (I) submarine project
South Korean Daewoo and Spanish Navantia have proven air independent propulsion technology and are willing to build long endurance submarines under strategic partnership model with Indian MDL and L&T defence majors.

View attachment 164499

Indian Navy's Scorpene class diesel attack submarine patrolling waters outside Mumbai harbour.
Updated on Jul 19, 2022 08:11 AM IST
ByShishir Gupta
Even though the Defence Ministry has again extended the deadline for submitting the Request for Proposals (RFP) for the advanced submarine project to November 30, South Korean Daewoo and Spanish Navantia has shown interest in building the long endurance diesel submarine under the strategic partnership model with India. The RFP was first issued in July 2021 and extended to November 30, 2022, from June 30, 2022, deadline.
The decision to extend the deadline was taken as certain clauses relating to “joint and several penalties” needs to be amended in the RFP document. The amended clauses will be taken up by the Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC) for approval shortly. Under the strategic partnership model, India has identified Mazagoan Docks Limited (MDL) and Larsen & Toubro (L&T) to tie up with foreign defence majors in South Korea, Spain, Germany, France, and Russia to build six air independent propulsion (AIP) diesel attack submarines for the Indian Navy at the cost of over ₹40,000 crore.
As of now, South Korean Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering and Spanish company Navantia, who have proven AIP technology has shown interest in building the submarines under Project 75 India of the Indian Navy.

While the national security planners had considered to extend the on-going Project 75 diesel attack submarine project by extending the production line at MDL to three more submarines, the move was over-ruled in favour of the fuel-based AIP project as the latter have higher endurance and more potent.
In layman terms, a diesel attack submarine must come to surface once a day to charge its diesel batteries, while the AIP submarine must surface once a week to do the same. Hence, the AIP equipped submarine with land attack ballistic missile onboard is a more potent weapon in equatorial waters due to lateral inversion in the tropics.
While French Naval Group, Russian Rosoboronexport and TKMS Germany have not shown interest with French now focusing on nuclear powered sub-surface platforms and Germany using latest lithium cell technology, the South Korean and Spanish defence majors are keen to participate in the project.
The South Korean defence major Daewoo has already commissioned the first AIP equipped submarine Dosan Ahn Changho in 2019, while Spanish Isaac Peral was launched in April 22, 2021 at Cartagena Shipyards. Both the submarines have land attack missiles including ballistic and cruise missiles on board.
The Indian Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) has also developed the AIP technology and will be retrofitted on Project 75 submarines when they come for mid-life upgrade. The first of the six indigenous Scorpene class submarine, INS Kalveri, was commissioned in the Indian Navy in 2017. Three more have been commissioned in the Indian Navy since then.


The Spain S80 is not mature. too heavy, over budget, built around a US combat system : No way.
The south Korean design seems the more ready to be choosen, if no surprise occurs....
 

WolfPack86

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Korea and Spain defence majors ready to participate in 75 (I) submarine project
South Korean Daewoo and Spanish Navantia have proven air independent propulsion technology and are willing to build long endurance submarines under strategic partnership model with Indian MDL and L&T defence majors.

Even though the Defence Ministry has again extended the deadline for submitting the Request for Proposals (RFP) for the advanced submarine project to November 30, South Korean Daewoo and Spanish Navantia has shown interest in building the long endurance diesel submarine under the strategic partnership model with India. The RFP was first issued in July 2021 and extended to November 30, 2022, from June 30, 2022, deadline.

The decision to extend the deadline was taken as certain clauses relating to “joint and several penalties” needs to be amended in the RFP document. The amended clauses will be taken up by the Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC) for approval shortly. Under the strategic partnership model, India has identified Mazagoan Docks Limited (MDL) and Larsen & Toubro (L&T) to tie up with foreign defence majors in South Korea, Spain, Germany, France, and Russia to build six air independent propulsion (AIP) diesel attack submarines for the Indian Navy at the cost of over ₹40,000 crore.

As of now, South Korean Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering and Spanish company Navantia, who have proven AIP technology has shown interest in building the submarines under Project 75 India of the Indian Navy.
 

_merlin_

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The key in Submarine 75(I) project other than durability and reliability is operational AIP system. Unless the submarine supplier demonstrates a successful AIP system, the contract is no go. The delay in awarding the contract is mostly due to that. The desktop naval warriors are shedding crocodile tears for the delay, but it is no go without a proper, working AIP system.
Which country in the world can provide a proven (meaning operational I expect) AIP system of the kind IN wants?
 

Super falcon

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Which country in the world can provide a proven (meaning operational I expect) AIP system of the kind IN wants?
India must get submarines as soon as they can since kilo is getting decommissioned step by step only scorpene subs will remain a backbone of indian naval underwater fleet after Chinese increasing their subs like pencils India must sign now to get these new subs by 2028
 

Super falcon

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There is news that India now considering to get finalized submarine deal with Korea by the years end because if they re negotiated with french it will take more 3 years to finalize the deal with french but with south Korean option Koreans deawoo shipbuilders have vaste experience to design subs as they seccusfully worked with German U 214 subs and after getting good expertise on those state of the art they built KS III
 

BON PLAN

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There is news that India now considering to get finalized submarine deal with Korea by the years end because if they re negotiated with french it will take more 3 years to finalize the deal with french but with south Korean option Koreans deawoo shipbuilders have vaste experience to design subs as they seccusfully worked with German U 214 subs and after getting good expertise on those state of the art they built KS III
1) LOL
2) Big LOL. Their sub is a derivative of a german design. They have in fact few own experience in this field.
 

Dark Sorrow

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The Spain S80 is not mature. too heavy, over budget, built around a US combat system : No way.
The south Korean design seems the more ready to be choosen, if no surprise occurs....
What is US combat system? We didn't have any issues with Rafale even with several critical US sub-systems, why would we have problem with Spanish subs.
 

Dark Sorrow

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LM's BYG1 is used in the Virginia class. It is the brains of a sub that creates a single tactical picture with inputs from all the sensors. It has to be able to handle the large amount of data coming in, process, interpret and present it in a coherent way.
Should we have such system developed for Arihant class?
 

BON PLAN

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What is US combat system? We didn't have any issues with Rafale even with several critical US sub-systems, why would we have problem with Spanish subs.
What are the critical US sub systems of the Rafale please ?

As all the US weapon system, it's a black box and forget to integrate any of your own weapons with it !
 

MonaLazy

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Should we have such system developed for Arihant class?
Already!


BEL also developed Arihant’s CMS.. Tata Power Strategic Engineering Division in collaboration with UK’s BAE Systems designed a platform management system and electronic warfare consoles for the combat management system (CMS).. Built with Russian steel, broadly equivalent to the US HY-80 grade, Arihant is divided into seven compartments, with main divisions for the propulsion system – acoustically damped and sealed into a 600-tonne titanium shell circa 10 m in diameter – the CMS, platform management centre, and torpedo room.
Here is some info on CMS for INS Vikrant, first from a private company:



A naval Combat Management System (CMS) is the computer system that connects a ship's sensors, weapons, data links and support measures to the staff performing the combat tasks. Some of the functions include sensor control, sensor data fusion, threat evaluation and weapons control.
“The CMS completes the ‘sensor to shooter’ loop through an automated ‘Decision’ mechanism achieved via unique warfare algorithms. All Sensors and Weapons systems fitted onboard Own ship and Fleet task force ships are connected at single point at each CMS node through onboard digital data bus and, externally via Data link through On-air protocol,” explains Kulshreshtha, who has steered multiple indigenous CMS programmes including CMS-SNF, CMS-28 & CMS-15A, to Financial Express Online.

Indian Navy has achieved advancements to the level of Fleet level planning i.e. the Flag Ship can plan for the fleet ships to efficiently & effectively engage an enemy threat as perceived at a Theatre level.

According to him each Task Force ship is capable of seeing Common Tactical Operating Picture for threat engagement. For any naval task force at sea, & TERA capability plays the most decisive role in a sea battle, with TERA being measured through real time “susceptibility and vulnerability” computations for the Task Force battle group.

With enemy possessing modern long range Air to Surface missiles (ASM) launched from high speed manoeuvrable fighter aircrafts (possessing radar detection avoidance features), CMS with cutting edge TERA technology for countering these threats is only deciding factor to achieve command on high seas.

 
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binayak95

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Already!




Here is some info on CMS for INS Vikrant, first from a private company:








Yeaaap. This shit is cool af. Kolkata launched a Barak 8 from Chennai to intercept a PTA - first demonstration of battlegroup management from a flagship.
 

Dark Sorrow

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What are the critical US sub systems of the Rafale please ?

As all the US weapon system, it's a black box and forget to integrate any of your own weapons with it !
Auxiliary power units, lighting systems, fuel nozzles, wheel brakes and brake controls, transducer, electro-optical and passive electronic components, cabin systems, canopies, fuel tank sealants, corrosion inhibitors, and various mechanical and electrical power systems were all supplied by American companies.

Before selling SCALP missiles to Egypt, the French government must obtain US approval, Eric Trappier, chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation was reported as saying on the Rafale deal. The long-range weapon’s ability to function is dependent on certain US parts.

Semiconductor components and software components.
 

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