Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[Enquirer]

what kind of logistics ? explain if you can.

The logistics of weaponry & customizations for Aussie needs.
Japanese preferred to sell theirs as a black box (they also somehow preferred to keep all their tech very secret)

 

[BON PLAN]

Aussies did want Soryus for the superior tech

No.
It was said in the paper news that the japanese subs was prefered by political top brass, not by the navy.
I'm quite sure the japan design was the costlier. japan never exported a single sub...

 

[BON PLAN]

The logistics of weaponry & customizations for Aussie needs.
Japanese preferred to sell theirs as a black box (they also somehow preferred to keep all their tech very secret)

If Japan didn't accept to add a US weapon system on its sub, it's a pain in the ass for us, because it was clearly requested.

 

[Armand2REP]

No.
It was said in the paper news that the japanese subs was prefered by political top brass, not by the navy.
I'm quite sure the japan design was the costlier. japan never exported a single sub...

I don't know what papers you are reading but Australia was under intense US pressure to buy the Japanese submarine but we won based on the stealth features and advanced pump jet propulsion.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...ese-companies-in-australias-submarine-tender/

Being based on a nuclear submarine design also gives it the possibility of being upgraded to nuclear if Aussie politics ever changes. Japan tried to offer a Li Ion powered submarine that didn't have the necessary safety required. All of Japanese offers were on paper with nothing proven, Australia wasn't going to take a chance when Naval Group has more than proven itself.

 

[BON PLAN]

I don't know what papers you are reading but Australia was under intense US pressure to buy the Japanese submarine but we won based on the stealth features and advanced pump jet propulsion.

I didn't write anything else, except the US pressures.

 

[WolfPack86]

Russia set to offer submarines during Modi-Putin summit
Russia is likely to offer India its conventional submarines on the government-to-government route under the Navy’s Project-75I at the summit between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Vladimir Putin at Vladivostok next week, Russian officials said.

“Russian conventional submarines will be offered through the government-to-government route to India at the summit. This will save a lot of time in the procurement process,” one official said.

“The possibility of offering India the Su-57, the Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), is also being explored, but it has not been decided yet,” he said.


The Navy is looking to buy six advanced conventional diesel-electric submarines under Project 75I that, after several delays, has made progress in the past several months. The procurement is under the Strategic Partnership (SP) model, and is the second project to be processed through this route after the Navy’s tender for utility helicopters.

The Russian submarine will likely be based on the Amur 1650 conventional submarine, modified to suit Indian requirements. The contenders for Project-75I are the Naval Group of France, Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau of Russia, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems of Germany and Saab Group of Sweden.

In June, the Navy issued the Expression of Interest (EoI) for short-listing potential Indian strategic partners for the project put at Rs 45,000 crore. The potential strategic partners were asked to respond within two months. The Indian partners will be short-listed based on the technical and financial capability to execute the project and absorb the technologies. The foreign manufacturer will be selected separately. However, the strategic partnership is a long-drawn process with many uncertainties, as this model is being attempted for the first time.

Russia set to offer submarines during Modi-Putin summit


Su-57 ready for export ::

The Russian FGFA has completed its development cycle, and the first batch is being produced for delivery to the Russian Air Force. Russian officials said at the ongoing MAKS air show that the jet was also ready for export.

India was to have jointly developed its FGFA based on the Russian jet. But after protracted negotiations, India decided last year not to go ahead with the project. Speaking to reporters, Victor N. Kladov, Director for International Cooperation and Regional Policy at Rostec, said Russia had never cancelled any agreement with the Indian government. “The FGFA project has been delayed by the Indian side, not by the Russian side,” he said.
http://defencenews.in/article/Russia-set-to-offer-submarines-during-Modi-Putin-summit-586793

 

[uoftotaku]

This is exactly why I call the entire exercise a circus.

A company which has no shipbuilding facilities or experience is bidding for a premier naval programme

What a farce

 

[IndianHawk]

This is exactly why I call the entire exercise a circus.

A company which has no shipbuilding facilities or experience is bidding for a premier naval programme

What a farce

Isn't the goal of strategic partnerships policy to create private sector expertise?

Other than govt shipyard only l&t has submarine building capacity and they are working with SSBN program and will have a pie in upcoming SSN program. So another private player must rise.
And there is no one else with expertise.

It will have to be a new one.

 

[IndianHawk]

Russia set to offer submarines during Modi-Putin summit
Russia is likely to offer India its conventional submarines on the government-to-government route under the Navy’s Project-75I at the summit between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Vladimir Putin at Vladivostok next week, Russian officials said.

“Russian conventional submarines will be offered through the government-to-government route to India at the summit. This will save a lot of time in the procurement process,” one official said.

“The possibility of offering India the Su-57, the Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), is also being explored, but it has not been decided yet,” he said.


The Navy is looking to buy six advanced conventional diesel-electric submarines under Project 75I that, after several delays, has made progress in the past several months. The procurement is under the Strategic Partnership (SP) model, and is the second project to be processed through this route after the Navy’s tender for utility helicopters.

The Russian submarine will likely be based on the Amur 1650 conventional submarine, modified to suit Indian requirements. The contenders for Project-75I are the Naval Group of France, Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau of Russia, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems of Germany and Saab Group of Sweden.

In June, the Navy issued the Expression of Interest (EoI) for short-listing potential Indian strategic partners for the project put at Rs 45,000 crore. The potential strategic partners were asked to respond within two months. The Indian partners will be short-listed based on the technical and financial capability to execute the project and absorb the technologies. The foreign manufacturer will be selected separately. However, the strategic partnership is a long-drawn process with many uncertainties, as this model is being attempted for the first time.

Russia set to offer submarines during Modi-Putin summit


Su-57 ready for export ::

The Russian FGFA has completed its development cycle, and the first batch is being produced for delivery to the Russian Air Force. Russian officials said at the ongoing MAKS air show that the jet was also ready for export.

India was to have jointly developed its FGFA based on the Russian jet. But after protracted negotiations, India decided last year not to go ahead with the project. Speaking to reporters, Victor N. Kladov, Director for International Cooperation and Regional Policy at Rostec, said Russia had never cancelled any agreement with the Indian government. “The FGFA project has been delayed by the Indian side, not by the Russian side,” he said.
http://defencenews.in/article/Russia-set-to-offer-submarines-during-Modi-Putin-summit-586793

Russians being smart here. G2G deal can be pretty fast. But navy is probably keen on western tech.

 

[uoftotaku]

Isn't the goal of strategic partnerships policy to create private sector expertise?

Other than govt shipyard only l&t has submarine building capacity and they are working with SSBN program and will have a pie in upcoming SSN program. So another private player must rise.
And there is no one else with expertise.

It will have to be a new one.

The intention was to encourage an existing private shipyard to enter into the military market which had until recently been restricted to PSU's.

There are plenty of pvt shipbuilding companies in the country which have all stayed away from this contract due to its complexity and size. If you consider that a long experienced company like MDL which has built subs before, had so much trouble with Scorpene contract, the learning curve for a pvt yard with no experience will be steep.

Moreover, the contract will entail huge forward capital investment by the yard to build up infrastructure, to an extent that smaller yards are scared off. Which is why you have seen only the "usual suspects" so far bidding. For a company like Adani, which has not even a remote connection to shipbuilding, to suddenly submit a bid is both suspicious and highly disruptive. Which facility are they planning to use? One would suspect, reading the tea leaves, that they plan to acquire Pipavav yard from the near bankrupt Anil Ambani group which is really the only pvt facility available right now and has the infrastructure. It also remains to be seen whose design Adani is hawking, Most likely Saab A26 as Adani already has some relationship with Saab Group through the failed Gripen NG bid for MMRCA but remains to be seen

Adani certainly has both the financial resources and the political clout to push this towards himself if it actually goes through.However, it will raise a huge stink about favoritism simply due to the people involved and nature of the last minute entry.

 

[IndianHawk]

The intention was to encourage an existing private shipyard to enter into the military market which had until recently been restricted to PSU's.

There are plenty of pvt shipbuilding companies in the country which have all stayed away from this contract due to its complexity and size. If you consider that a long experienced company like MDL which has built subs before, had so much trouble with Scorpene contract, the learning curve for a pvt yard with no experience will be steep.

Moreover, the contract will entail huge forward capital investment by the yard to build up infrastructure, to an extent that smaller yards are scared off. Which is why you have seen only the "usual suspects" so far bidding. For a company like Adani, which has not even a remote connection to shipbuilding, to suddenly submit a bid is both suspicious and highly disruptive. Which facility are they planning to use? One would suspect, reading the tea leaves, that they plan to acquire Pipavav yard from the near bankrupt Anil Ambani group which is really the only pvt facility available right now and has the infrastructure. It also remains to be seen whose design Adani is hawking, Most likely Saab A26 as Adani already has some relationship with Saab Group through the failed Gripen NG bid for MMRCA but remains to be seen

Adani certainly has both the financial resources and the political clout to push this towards himself if it actually goes through.However, it will raise a huge stink about favoritism simply due to the people involved and nature of the last minute entry.

If adani overtakes pipapav than it has capacity .
Expertise will come with foreign collaboration . That's why for rafale reliance was chosen . Reliance also had no experience of previous aerospace building. And dassault was not ready to work with HAL. Similarly foreign shipyards who are bidding for 75i may not want to work with cumbersome govt shipyard .

On the private side that leaves l&t shipyard but if l&t are involved in a big way with upcoming SSN will they have space and time for 75i??

So adani has a fair chance still.

One other reason for late move may be that govt wants to pressurise other bidders into lowering the bid by bringing well connected adani as competition.

Also we must not forget that adani has real expertise of port operation and building and naval vessels are obvious next expansion.

Also 75i outcome will depend on tech transfer so Swedish are fairly in the game at this point.

 

[Chinmoy]

This is exactly why I call the entire exercise a circus.

A company which has no shipbuilding facilities or experience is bidding for a premier naval programme

What a farce

Adani Grp would get disqualified in Submarine contract for sure. This might just be a step to show their presence in defence market. They are in process of some major acquisition.

 

[uoftotaku]

If adani overtakes pipapav than it has capacity .
Expertise will come with foreign collaboration . That's why for rafale reliance was chosen . Reliance also had no experience of previous aerospace building. And dassault was not ready to work with HAL. Similarly foreign shipyards who are bidding for 75i may not want to work with cumbersome govt shipyard .

On the private side that leaves l&t shipyard but if l&t are involved in a big way with upcoming SSN will they have space and time for 75i??

So adani has a fair chance still.

One other reason for late move may be that govt wants to pressurise other bidders into lowering the bid by bringing well connected adani as competition.

Also we must not forget that adani has real expertise of port operation and building and naval vessels are obvious next expansion.

Also 75i outcome will depend on tech transfer so Swedish are fairly in the game at this point.

Let's hope at least that a decision is made soon. If it drags on any longer the process loses whatever meaning it has left.

Whatever happens just hope there is no further controversy and mud slinging.

 

[power_monger]

Adani getting contract would certainly raise many eyebrows. It's foolish to think that a company with zero experience would some how get all TOT and lead the country.

I wish this drama is closed as soon as possible and L&T given contract as they are capable to build knowledge base upon this contract and help India towards indigenous submarine construction in ssk.

 

[power_monger]

Adani getting the contract is only possible if they bribe bjp government. Hopefully Navy avoid all such nonsense and pressure.

 

[Armand2REP]

Adani getting the contract is only possible if they bribe bjp government. Hopefully Navy avoid all such nonsense and pressure.

MDL winning only makes sense if the French option is chosen. They have gone to great lengths to keep their skilled workforce on the payroll. No one else has that competitive advantage. If Adani has never operated a shipyard I can't see what advantage they would have at all.

 

[IndianHawk]

MDL winning only makes sense if the French option is chosen. They have gone to great lengths to keep their skilled workforce on the payroll. No one else has that competitive advantage. If Adani has never operated a shipyard I can't see what advantage they would have at all.

Reliance never built a plane before so why did dassault chose it as partner??

 

[IndianHawk]

Adani getting contract would certainly raise many eyebrows. It's foolish to think that a company with zero experience would some how get all TOT and lead the country.

I wish this drama is closed as soon as possible and L&T given contract as they are capable to build knowledge base upon this contract and help India towards indigenous submarine construction in ssk.

By that logic no new company would ever rise in a new sector.

Expertise comes with skilled experience people and with partnership with established players.

How did l&t got expertise? It started somewhere!

 

[power_monger]

Reliance never built a plane before so why did dassault chose it as partner??

Doesn't mean it was a radical choice. They just need companies which cannot absorb tot but efficiently execute as per instructions set by parent company. Reliance at the best is a service company. Let's not talk about their technical advancements .

 

[IndianHawk]

Doesn't mean it was a radical choice. They just need companies which cannot absorb tot but efficiently execute as per instructions set by parent company. Reliance at the best is a service company. Let's not talk about their technical advancements .

You do realise offsets are involved in the deal and reliance is building parts for falcon jets by learning from dassault!