Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[Vijyes]

When AIP is used, it can remain underwater for couple of weeks....
What happens when the AIP fuel is exhausted?
1.) Can the chemical process be reversed (by applying electricity in reverse, when the submarine surfaces & is able to run the diesel generators)?
Or
2.) is it a one time use only....needing redocking to replace the chemical fuel?

The AIP is mostly fuel cells nowadays. Older models of diesel and liquid oxygen also are present but are being phased out. It is not rechargeable and has to be replenished in both cases. But fuel cell is considered as fuel and space efficient.

In either case, why not reduce battery size to a minimum (or eliminate it) and use AIP all the way?
- Is the energy density of diesel better than that of the AIP (fuel cell) ingredient? In which case why not just replace the AIP module with additional batteries (for longer endurance)?
- Is the cost of diesel so cheap that the combination of diesel and AIP (fuel cell) is preferred? in which case why not just replace the AIP module with additional batteries (for longer endurance)?

Diesel itself is not energy dense than fuel cell fuel but considering that fuel cell also needs oxygen in large quantities, the total density of fuel cell ingredients is lower than diesel. Also, diesel can burn much faster in presence of direct atmospheric air and hence produce much higher speeds than any other fuel cell.

Batteries like lithium ion ones can hold lot of power but they are unsafe and dangerous. Other batteries which are safe like lead acid ones, can't hold as much energy as fuel cells. So, fuel cells are preferred over batteries when submerged.

We can't eliminate batteries as batteries are very cheap and need no extra fuel. The propulsion always produces electricity which is always excessive than required and is freely stored in battery. Why would anyone waste AIP fuel instead of batteries?

 

[Enquirer]

The AIP is mostly fuel cells nowadays. Older models of diesel and liquid oxygen also are present but are being phased out. It is not rechargeable and has to be replenished in both cases. But fuel cell is considered as fuel and space efficient.


Diesel itself is not energy dense than fuel cell fuel but considering that fuel cell also needs oxygen in large quantities, the total density of fuel cell ingredients is lower than diesel. Also, diesel can burn much faster in presence of direct atmospheric air and hence produce much higher speeds than any other fuel cell.

Batteries like lithium ion ones can hold lot of power but they are unsafe and dangerous. Other batteries which are safe like lead acid ones, can't hold as much energy as fuel cells. So, fuel cells are preferred over batteries when submerged.

We can't eliminate batteries as batteries are very cheap and need no extra fuel. The propulsion always produces electricity which is always excessive than required and is freely stored in battery. Why would anyone waste AIP fuel instead of batteries?

Thought I emphasized that one should know the tech definitively for answering the question!!!

Your post doesn't answer the questions I posed. Not going to spend time rebutting it.

 

[IndianHawk]

Tejas, Arjun, nihrbay... Hummm you're fine!

Tejas is flying and getting better spanning a 3 variants mk1a , mwf and nlca mk2.

Nirbhay is also ready for induction and also spanning new variants.

They were first products for India industry building ecosystem. It takes time to build up ecosystem. Guess you can't comprehend that.

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[IndianHawk]

The Indian defense top brass said these leaks were not important...
But you probably are well informed than them. LOL.

Really! What else could they say after submarine was already building and they are desperately short on subs.

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[IndianHawk]

These leaks were only common marketing datas.
Organised by a desperate competitor (German one)....

Oh yes blame the Germans because french can't secure their products details.
Acoustic signature are not common marketing data.lol.

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[WolfPack86]

Indian must go for Armur class submarine intergrated with 600 km range of Brahmos land attack version cruise missile.

 

[Armand2REP]

There are already LI ion batteries. Do you see a billion mobile phones being made every year? All of these have lithium battery. But, AIP is still in use. There is no point giving 2025 deadline

You can't safely use Li Ion batteries on submarines. It has to be solid state. That is why the Soryu bid lost in Australia. The Shortfin Barracuda will be the first soilid state powered SSK and Naval Group will be offering solid state conversions for all Scorpene submarines using Saft batteries. 2025 is when the factory will be mass producing them, that is when all other SSKs before it are obsolete.

 

[IndianHawk]

Indian must go for Armur class submarine intergrated with 600 km range of Brahmos land attack version cruise missile.

Amur is smallest of the lot. That will affect endurance. Unless we have specific strategies for small subs Amur won't cut it.

Saab kokums are also very new and very less orders till date.

So the main competitors are Scorpion and type 214. But we already have Scorpion line with tot.

I think this is designed to go Germany. Germany has a much better record for tot than anyone else. South korean are already exporting submarine based on type 209 (Germany ) to Indonesia. For the same project Germany and Turkey bidded together.

So an Indo - German collaboration might be in the making. If we could get non magnetic hull technology from Germany it would be very potent.

I believe navy want to Western tech lines one with Scorpion and one with German type 214.
Both will churn out submarine regularly to replace all older kilos and older German subs.

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[IndianHawk]

Type 214 also has fuel cell aip.

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[IndianHawk]

The Indian defense top brass said these leaks were not important...
But you probably are well informed than them. LOL.

This is what India brass said about leak.
No extra Scorpion other than original 6!

https://in.reuters.com/article/india-france-submarines-idINKCN1182FG

Guess I'm pretty well informed .lol.

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[Vijyes]

You can't safely use Li Ion batteries on submarines. It has to be solid state. That is why the Soryu bid lost in Australia. The Shortfin Barracuda will be the first soilid state powered SSK and Naval Group will be offering solid state conversions for all Scorpene submarines using Saft batteries. 2025 is when the factory will be mass producing them, that is when all other SSKs before it are obsolete.

I have only heard of ambitious talks of the solid state batteries. The implementation appears to be far away. If the R&D is not yet completed, we can't jut say that it will be ready by 2025. R&D can take decades. So, I would take it with a pinch of salt

 

[Armand2REP]

I have only heard of ambitious talks of the solid state batteries. The implementation appears to be far away. If the R&D is not yet completed, we can't jut say that it will be ready by 2025. R&D can take decades. So, I would take it with a pinch of salt

According to Saft's director of operations the roadmap is,

2020 - mass production of third-generation liquid electrolyte lithium-ion batteries
2022 - generation 3B liquid electrolyte lithium-ion
2024 - solid-state lithium-ion using metallic lithium anode

By 2025 Saft and PSA Opel will be producing 200GWh of batteries per year meeting all of Europe's needs.

 

[Enquirer]

You can't safely use Li Ion batteries on submarines. It has to be solid state. That is why the Soryu bid lost in Australia. The Shortfin Barracuda will be the first soilid state powered SSK and Naval Group will be offering solid state conversions for all Scorpene submarines using Saft batteries. 2025 is when the factory will be mass producing them, that is when all other SSKs before it are obsolete.

Soryu didn't lose. Japan was reluctant to sell (they've not sold arms to outside countries after WW2). They're trying to get into the international arms market, but are unable to make up their mind on selling very advanced technology.

 

[Enquirer]

I have only heard of ambitious talks of the solid state batteries. The implementation appears to be far away. If the R&D is not yet completed, we can't jut say that it will be ready by 2025. R&D can take decades. So, I would take it with a pinch of salt

Solid state Li ion batteries are already here. R&D is complete. Several companies are in the process of producing large scale quantities.
You'll see electric cars with solid state batteries in the next 2 years on-the-road!

 

[Armand2REP]

Soryu didn't lose. Japan was reluctant to sell (they've not sold arms to outside countries after WW2). They're trying to get into the international arms market, but are unable to make up their mind on selling very advanced technology.

If they were reluctant to sell they wouldn't have placed a bid much less offered economic concessions. It is Abe's foreign policy to become an arms exporter. They lost, we won thanks to our superior technology.

 

[Enquirer]

If they were reluctant to sell they wouldn't have placed a bid much less offered economic concessions. It is Abe's foreign policy to become an arms exporter. They lost, we won thanks to our superior technology.

You obviously don't know the full details!
It wasn't a plain vanilla sale based on price. Australia wanted customizations; Japan had no sales experience, they didn't know how to deal with Aussies, if to make changes or not. Japanese had a very superior product that Aussies wanted. But Aussies were unsure if Japan is comfortable with custom work and after sales customer service. All this while the French made big moves (politically and via media). As such Aussies dumped Japan.

Also, who is 'we' that won as per you.

 

[Vijyes]

Also, who is 'we' that won as per you.

@Armand2REP is french national, FYI. So, when he says 'we', he means France/French.

 

[Armand2REP]

You obviously don't know the full details!
It wasn't a plain vanilla sale based on price. Australia wanted customizations; Japan had no sales experience, they didn't know how to deal with Aussies, if to make changes or not. Japanese had a very superior product that Aussies wanted. But Aussies were unsure if Japan is comfortable with custom work and after sales customer service. All this while the French made big moves (politically and via media). As such Aussies dumped Japan.

Japanese strategy was to leak commercial details of Scorpene to the Australian press, clearly they couldn't win based on the technical deficiencies of their product. The Aussies are not idiots, they buy the superior product which is made by Naval Group, that is also superior to Germany and Sweden. Shortfin won on all technical merits, endurance, range, speed, stealth and capacity. The Japanese are new to weapons development and several decades behind, maybe one day they will catch up, but certainly not today.

 

[IndianHawk]

Japanese strategy was to leak commercial details of Scorpene to the Australian press, clearly they couldn't win based on the technical deficiencies of their product. The Aussies are not idiots, they buy the superior product which is made by Naval Group, that is also superior to Germany and Sweden. Shortfin won on all technical merits, endurance, range, speed, stealth and capacity. The Japanese are new to weapons development and several decades behind, maybe one day they will catch up, but certainly not today.

Australian are idiots . 35 billion USD for 12 submarine. That's almost 3 billion USD for a submarine. They could have builded a nuke submarine for that money.

They fly f18 as their airforce fighter which no body else does except for idiot Canadians not even USA.

About Japan they fielded an aesa before French could spell it. Don't get ahead of yourself.

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[IndianHawk]

Japanese strategy was to leak commercial details of Scorpene to the Australian press, clearly they couldn't win based on the technical deficiencies of their product. The Aussies are not idiots, they buy the superior product which is made by Naval Group, that is also superior to Germany and Sweden. Shortfin won on all technical merits, endurance, range, speed, stealth and capacity. The Japanese are new to weapons development and several decades behind, maybe one day they will catch up, but certainly not today.

How was it Japanese strategy when the other french here is blaming Germany for leak.

Atleast get your story straight .lol

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