Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[BON PLAN]

Current AIP SSKs run on inefficient Lead Acid batteries. Even using current commercial Li Ion technology you get 4X the capacity and even faster recharge speeds. Using the next gen batteries doubles all of that, AIP is just a waste of space at that point.

Li Ion battery costs at least 3.5 x more than classical lead battery....

 

[tharun]

I think we need to get rid of P-75I.
So we can build 16 submarines with current budget of $8+ billion.
And arm with torpedo launch brahmos.

 

[Prashant12]

Six in fray for Navy’s €8.3-billion advanced submarine project


Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Thyssenkrupp among bidders

Mumbai, July 19:
Six advanced submarines, to be built under Project 75(I) to scale up the Navy’s warfare capabilities, are set to get off the starters’ block, with the Navy issuing a Request for Information (RFI) to six foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) for the €8.3-billion submarine project.

“The Indian Navy has issued an RFI asking competent companies that have independently designed and constructed a modern submarine, which is either currently in service or is undergoing sea trials,” confirmed officials who got the RFI, adding that “the L1 for P-75(I) will most likely be announced only at the end of next year.”

A surprise contender among the six OEMs is Japan’s leading shipbuilders Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, which have been “strongly promoting their technological prowess to win contracts to build India’s next generation of submarines,” said sources.

Other than Japan, OEMs from Spain, France, Germany, Russia and Sweden are also in the mix, and have been issued the RFI that details the technical requirements the Indian Navy would like in P-75(I), said sources.

The Navy has issued the RFI to Russian submarine manufacturer Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau, French naval contractor Naval Group (earlier DCNS), Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Spain’s Navantia and Sweden’s Saab.

“The manufacture of six next-generation stealth submarines has moved to the crucial next stage with this RFI,” said an official, who bagged the RFI, seeking anonymity. “Qualified OEMs, which are the technology provider, will be issued an expression of interest (EoI) much later by the Indian Navy. This (foreign OEMs) is patented under India’s newly-announced Strategic Partnership Model in the Defence Procurement Procedure 2016,” the official added.

Technology transfer
Stating that the long-delayed procedure has got a fresh lease of life with the issuance of the RFI, sources indicated that the foreign OEMs will respond to the RFI “to show how they are qualified to build the six submarines with a partner in India. The OEMs will be transferring important know-how, and actual transfer of technology will be key to ascertain which foreign tech partner teams up with the Indian strategical partner.”

Sources added that though the basic parameters of importance in the RFI was the Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP), “which is very innovative, though dangerous,” details were also sought on the means to increase the submarines’ “endurance and stealth capability, anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare capability, and land attack capability.”

Among other things, the OEMs were asked to submit data on the proposed design for torpedo tubes, sources said, which could launch heavy-weight torpedoes, missiles and discharge other weapons. They were also asked to elaborate on the transfer of technology they were willing to undertake with regard to the submarine design and construction. The OEMs were asked to detail their plans for the discharge of offset commitments.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...advanced-submarine-project/article9779029.ece

 

[SanjeevM]

What is the difference between ATV class submarines and these?

While we have indigenous ATV class submarines with miniature nuclear reactor, can't we quickly build the same without giving foreign currency $$ to outsiders?

All we can do is smaller contracts with foreign companies for arming them with deadly weapon.

 

[Adioz]

Six in fray for Navy’s €8.3-billion advanced submarine project


Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Thyssenkrupp among bidders

Mumbai, July 19:
Six advanced submarines, to be built under Project 75(I) to scale up the Navy’s warfare capabilities, are set to get off the starters’ block, with the Navy issuing a Request for Information (RFI) to six foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) for the €8.3-billion submarine project.

“The Indian Navy has issued an RFI asking competent companies that have independently designed and constructed a modern submarine, which is either currently in service or is undergoing sea trials,” confirmed officials who got the RFI, adding that “the L1 for P-75(I) will most likely be announced only at the end of next year.”

A surprise contender among the six OEMs is Japan’s leading shipbuilders Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, which have been “strongly promoting their technological prowess to win contracts to build India’s next generation of submarines,” said sources.

Other than Japan, OEMs from Spain, France, Germany, Russia and Sweden are also in the mix, and have been issued the RFI that details the technical requirements the Indian Navy would like in P-75(I), said sources.

The Navy has issued the RFI to Russian submarine manufacturer Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau, French naval contractor Naval Group (earlier DCNS), Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Spain’s Navantia and Sweden’s Saab.

“The manufacture of six next-generation stealth submarines has moved to the crucial next stage with this RFI,” said an official, who bagged the RFI, seeking anonymity. “Qualified OEMs, which are the technology provider, will be issued an expression of interest (EoI) much later by the Indian Navy. This (foreign OEMs) is patented under India’s newly-announced Strategic Partnership Model in the Defence Procurement Procedure 2016,” the official added.

Technology transfer
Stating that the long-delayed procedure has got a fresh lease of life with the issuance of the RFI, sources indicated that the foreign OEMs will respond to the RFI “to show how they are qualified to build the six submarines with a partner in India. The OEMs will be transferring important know-how, and actual transfer of technology will be key to ascertain which foreign tech partner teams up with the Indian strategical partner.”

Sources added that though the basic parameters of importance in the RFI was the Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP), “which is very innovative, though dangerous,” details were also sought on the means to increase the submarines’ “endurance and stealth capability, anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare capability, and land attack capability.”

Among other things, the OEMs were asked to submit data on the proposed design for torpedo tubes, sources said, which could launch heavy-weight torpedoes, missiles and discharge other weapons. They were also asked to elaborate on the transfer of technology they were willing to undertake with regard to the submarine design and construction. The OEMs were asked to detail their plans for the discharge of offset commitments.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...advanced-submarine-project/article9779029.ece

What are the Japanese offering? Soryu? But I remember them refusing when Parrikar invited them earlier? Did something change in the pacifist stance of the Japanese public or did our new SP policy entice them? What changed?

Also, what is DCNS offering? If its Barracuda shortfin, we can use it for SSN program.

What is the difference between ATV class submarines and these?

While we have indigenous ATV class submarines with miniature nuclear reactor, can't we quickly build the same without giving foreign currency $$ to outsiders?

All we can do is smaller contracts with foreign companies for arming them with deadly weapon.

Compared to the SSKs we are trying to acquire from foreign firms, our nuclear submarines (ATV-class) are:-

1. Not very quiet.
2. Expensive to operate.
3. Based on older hull designs
4. Nuclear reactors have shorter life and may require multiple overhauls.
5. Not suitable for littoral warfare.

The SSK deals will give us a limited amount of access to newer foreign technology (including manufacturing technology and experience to Indian private yards). This can then be used to help make our indigenous SSNs quieter. Which will make the next generation of Indian SSBNs even more silent.

We are a late comer to the submarine game. The need right now is to acquire and assimilate technology in indigenous designs. The best way for that is to buy foreign SSKs and build them in India.

 

[Thrishul]

Also, what is DCNS offering? If its Barracuda shortfin, we can use it for SSN program.

We could follow what the Russians are doing with the Husky Project where their SSN, SSGN and SSBN will be based upon the same technologies.

The IN Could have 6 SSK's of Shorfins, 6 SSN, 6 SSGN's and the next class of SSBN's all having the same technology.

 

[lcafanboy]

Chinese nightmare : Japanese Soryu-class submarines in fray for Indian Navy’s submarine project
Published July 20, 2017 SOURCE: THE HINDU

Six advanced submarines, to be built under Project 75(I) to scale up the Navy’s warfare capabilities, are set to get off the starters’ block, with the Navy issuing a Request for Information (RFI) to six foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) for the €8.3-billion submarine project.

“The Indian Navy has issued an RFI asking competent companies that have independently designed and constructed a modern submarine, which is either currently in service or is undergoing sea trials,” confirmed officials who got the RFI, adding that “the L1 for P-75(I) will most likely be announced only at the end of next year.”

A surprise contender among the six OEMs is Japan’s leading shipbuilders Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, which have been “strongly promoting their technological prowess to win contracts to build India’s next generation of submarines,” said sources.

Other than Japan, OEMs from Spain, France, Germany, Russia and Sweden are also in the mix, and have been issued the RFI that details the technical requirements the Indian Navy would like in P-75(I), said sources.

The Navy has issued the RFI to Russian submarine manufacturer Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau, French naval contractor Naval Group (earlier DCNS), Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Spain’s Navantia and Sweden’s Saab.

“The manufacture of six next-generation stealth submarines has moved to the crucial next stage with this RFI,” said an official, who bagged the RFI, seeking anonymity. “Qualified OEMs, which are the technology provider, will be issued an expression of interest (EoI) much later by the Indian Navy. This (foreign OEMs) is patented under India’s newly-announced Strategic Partnership Model in the Defence Procurement Procedure 2016,” the official added.

Technology transfer

Stating that the long-delayed procedure has got a fresh lease of life with the issuance of the RFI, sources indicated that the foreign OEMs will respond to the RFI “to show how they are qualified to build the six submarines with a partner in India. The OEMs will be transferring important know-how, and actual transfer of technology will be key to ascertain which foreign tech partner teams up with the Indian strategical partner.”

Sources added that though the basic parameters of importance in the RFI was the Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP), “which is very innovative, though dangerous,” details were also sought on the means to increase the submarines’ “endurance and stealth capability, anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare capability, and land attack capability.”

Among other things, the OEMs were asked to submit data on the proposed design for torpedo tubes, sources said, which could launch heavy-weight torpedoes, missiles and discharge other weapons. They were also asked to elaborate on the transfer of technology they were willing to undertake with regard to the submarine design and construction. The OEMs were asked to detail their plans for the discharge of offset commitments.

http://idrw.org/chinese-nightmare-japanese-soryu-class-submarines-in-fray-for-indian-navys-submarine-project/#more-141785 .

 

[mayfair]

Could this be Indian navy's Shinkansen moment?

After losing the Australia sub contract, perhaps Japanese will be less condescending and more accommodating this time?

 

[An Angry Potato]

Didn't the Australians complain that Soryu's had low range? regardless the Soryu's are impressive subs all round

 

[lcafanboy]

Could this be Indian navy's Shinkansen moment?

After losing the Australia sub contract, perhaps Japanese will be less condescending and more accommodating this time?

It will also send signals to Dragon about India Japan & US co-operation to deal with Chinese hegemony. BTW Soryu class is as good as SSN but very expensive due to Lithium Ion Batteries it uses for AIP. If we get TOT then it is worth every penny. The Hull it self is very strong and can actually be used for SSN......

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Chinese nightmare : Japanese Soryu-class submarines in fray for Indian Navy’s submarine project
Published July 20, 2017 SOURCE: THE HINDU

Six advanced submarines, to be built under Project 75(I) to scale up the Navy’s warfare capabilities, are set to get off the starters’ block, with the Navy issuing a Request for Information (RFI) to six foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) for the €8.3-billion submarine project.

“The Indian Navy has issued an RFI asking competent companies that have independently designed and constructed a modern submarine, which is either currently in service or is undergoing sea trials,” confirmed officials who got the RFI, adding that “the L1 for P-75(I) will most likely be announced only at the end of next year.”

A surprise contender among the six OEMs is Japan’s leading shipbuilders Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, which have been “strongly promoting their technological prowess to win contracts to build India’s next generation of submarines,” said sources.

Other than Japan, OEMs from Spain, France, Germany, Russia and Sweden are also in the mix, and have been issued the RFI that details the technical requirements the Indian Navy would like in P-75(I), said sources.

The Navy has issued the RFI to Russian submarine manufacturer Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau, French naval contractor Naval Group (earlier DCNS), Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Spain’s Navantia and Sweden’s Saab.

“The manufacture of six next-generation stealth submarines has moved to the crucial next stage with this RFI,” said an official, who bagged the RFI, seeking anonymity. “Qualified OEMs, which are the technology provider, will be issued an expression of interest (EoI) much later by the Indian Navy. This (foreign OEMs) is patented under India’s newly-announced Strategic Partnership Model in the Defence Procurement Procedure 2016,” the official added.

Technology transfer

Stating that the long-delayed procedure has got a fresh lease of life with the issuance of the RFI, sources indicated that the foreign OEMs will respond to the RFI “to show how they are qualified to build the six submarines with a partner in India. The OEMs will be transferring important know-how, and actual transfer of technology will be key to ascertain which foreign tech partner teams up with the Indian strategical partner.”

Sources added that though the basic parameters of importance in the RFI was the Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP), “which is very innovative, though dangerous,” details were also sought on the means to increase the submarines’ “endurance and stealth capability, anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare capability, and land attack capability.”

Among other things, the OEMs were asked to submit data on the proposed design for torpedo tubes, sources said, which could launch heavy-weight torpedoes, missiles and discharge other weapons. They were also asked to elaborate on the transfer of technology they were willing to undertake with regard to the submarine design and construction. The OEMs were asked to detail their plans for the discharge of offset commitments.

http://idrw.org/chinese-nightmare-japanese-soryu-class-submarines-in-fray-for-indian-navys-submarine-project/#more-141785 .

It has lithium iron battery I believe and submarine considered to be most advance. I think Japan choose scorpene over soruyu. I do not know how it compares with scorpene but it is one of the most advance conventional submarine and there is no doubt about it. It is one weapon from which chinese piss from Japan.

 

[Aghore_King]

How is soryu when compared to other subs in this tender.....I think soryus are not as quite as Russian subs

 

[Adioz]

Can we expect all 6 to be in service by 2030?
If so, then by 2030, we will have >20 submarines operational, with just 5 slated for retirement.

• 2 of the existing Sindhughosh class
• 2 of the existing Shishumar class
• 6+ Kalvari class (Hoping that GoI goes ahead with purchase of more Kalvari class subs)
• 6 + Project 75I class
• 4-5 Arihant-class
• 1 Russian SSN on lease
• 1+ Indian SSN (maybe, if we expedite the Project 75I right NOW)

Post 2030, only 5 of these will retire (4 1990s SSKs and the leased Russian SSN) while we would have 5 or more Indian SSN class lined up for induction. Maybe by then, we have a Project-76 submarine (Indigenous SSK) in the works. So we might be able to raise our submarine fleet strength to >30 by 2040.

Edit: 30 by 2040 is not a very impressive number. What way do we have to increase the number of submarines to 30 by 2030? Does the Kalvari contract allow us to make a reapeat order for ~10 more submarines? If so, then there is nothing better given that the production line is already running full-steam. If not, we might have to negotiate a new contract, which will be costlier. But inducting more 75I class will be even more costly, and adding a 4th type of SSK is not a viable choice.

Edit 2: We could create a new Indian SSK class. We could go for making a common hull and components for our SSK and SSN. We could have a longer hull for the SSN to make it ~7000 tons displacement and a shorter hull for the SSK to make it in the ~4000 tons displacement. This can be done by simply adding more mid-sections to the SSN hull.

So basically, we could:-

1. Buy and build 6 Soryu domestically.
2. Use this design to create 10 Indigenous SSK ~4000 tons displacement, similar to Soryu.
3. Use a modification of the Indigenous SSK design to make six ~7000 ton Indigenous SSN.

If the French sell us the Barracuda shortfin, it would be better for the aforementioned route. But would they?

How is soryu when compared to other subs in this tender.....I think soryus are not as quite as Russian subs

Which Russian subs are we talking? Kilo or Lada-classes? Soryu is far superior to them IMHO. Soryu has a larger, stronger hull and X-rudder for better maneuverability. Soryu also uses sterling engines, which are purportedly quieter. Also, a larger displacement could mean more sound damping measures on-board.

 

[Kshatriya87]

Posting one of the comments from that article

Soryu's submarines 6+4 follow on order must be signed immediately with Japan for Make in India, its a class apart from other countries.At 4,200 tons submerged,they have a range of 6,100 nautical miles and can reportedly dive to a depth of 2,132 feet,unconfirmed reports that the submarines carry a war shot of thirty weapons of Brahmos,Nirbhay or Agni's..

 

[IndianHawk]

30 by 2040 is not a very impressive number. What way do we have to increase the number of submarines to 30 by 2030? Does the Kalvari contract allow us to make a reapeat order for ~10 more submarines? If so, then there is nothing better given that the production line is already running full-steam. If not, we might have to negotiate a new contract, which will be costlier. But inducting more 75I class will be even more costly, and adding a 4th type of SS

I believe it will.
I also believe after 2020 our production capacity will increase. Private corporations are only starting now by 2020 they will become serious about defense.

Chota ambani already declared that defense is going to be his biggest business.

Our budget would range from 70billion - 120 billion +- 10 billion in 2020-30.

Third largest in the world . We can churn out 30+ submarine in 2020-30 timeframe .

Can build 12 more of scorpion class+ can build 6 in project 75i by 2022 +can build 6 more of project 75i follow up.

Can build 10 more after arihant class.
Can build 5-6 SSN till 2030.

So easily 30 + will be produced.

 

[Flame Thrower]

Wish we had completely brought Kilo class(along with TOT) in 90's and developed it furthur.

But that was also tough economic times...

Nevertheless, we shouldn't loose opportunity this time...

Scorpene is one of the finest subs....(maybe coming with TOT).

If we can use Soryu to get the missing pieces, then lets go for it.

A decade later, we can push Japan/france for next gen SSN based on Scorpene or Soryu.

Back then(1980's), Kilo was the quitest SSK. Any info on how advanced Kilo (project 636, if I am not wrong) fares against these two.

 

[Mikesingh]

Compared to China we have a long way to go where subs are concerned. They have over 68 including 8 SSNs, 55 SSKs and 5 SSBNs while we have only 17 incl 2 under construction.

 

[IndianHawk]

Compared to China we have a long way to go where subs are concerned. They have over 68 including 8 SSNs, 55 SSKs and 5 SSBNs while we have only 17 incl 2 under construction.

They can only deploy a small fraction of their naval forces away from eastern cost where Japan and USA dominate.

So we need to maintain half the naval numbers that Chinese posses. These plus thousands of missiles (super , hyper and subsonic ) will make sure we remain superior in Indian ocean.

 

[lcafanboy]

Why Japan’s Soryu-Class Submarine offer to India might just turn the heat in the region
Published July 20, 2017 SOURCE: MANJUNATH REDDDY/ FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

A Report prepared by ” The Hindu ” if confirmed, then Japanese firms Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries have both responded to India’s quest for acquiring six new stealth Conventional submarines and will take part in the tender process. Both companies jointly have developed Japan Maritime Self Defense Force’s Soryu-Class Submarines which is considered among deadliest of the Diesel submarine in the production. While report failed to report if Soryu-Class Submarines have been offered to India or Soryu technology based submarine export variant will be on offer it does mark change in Japan’s attitude towards India’s in the export of its weapons. Soryu class in comparison with German 214 or Naval Groups Scorpene, or even with the Russian improved Kilo class Amur submarines, Soryu-class is considerably larger than all the competing submarines thus have longer endurance and weapons carrying capacity. Since BrahMos VL (Vertical Launch ) SLCM (Submarine Launched Cruise Missile ) will be a mandatory addition to all Six submarines to be acquired many Defence Analysts are predicting that Submarines asked under Project-75I will be bigger than Kalvari-class submarines currently under production under earlier Project-75. Soryu class offered to India will definitely be a highly modified one from the original to add Indian weapons systems and other sensors. But it also will raise few eye brows in Bejing since this will be for the first time India and Japan are collaborating on the transfer of high tech offensive equipment’s which will be prescribed has serious threat perception to Chinese Naval Surface and sub-surface fleet in Indian ocean region. Since Soryu class submarines have been developed specifically to Hunt Chinese submarines and Warships, Chinese Navy in particular ranks Soryu class submarines has one of the greatest challenges it will face in the South China Sea and Asia-Pacific to keep its dominance in that part of the region. Modified Soryu class submarines will only increase China’s woes in its ambitions to dominate Indian Ocean region in the guise of protecting its trade and its investments in the region. Even a water-downed export variant of Soryu class submarines developed by India will have that psychological fear factor in the crew of Chinese Naval fleet in Indian ocean region. Whether India buys Soryu class submarines or selects another able candidate from other five bidders in the race to supply Six Next Generation submarines to India it might finally open doors for possible collaboration with India for Japan in other weapons development or transfer which due to Japan’s non-commitment issues were not able to make any headway’s even when both prescribe China has its biggest threat in the region.

http://idrw.org/why-japans-soryu-class-submarine-offer-to-india-might-just-turn-the-heat-in-the-regional/ .

 

[Kalki_2018]

Soryu is a good sub but I don't believe IN really wants it. IN needs the next SSK's to be able to fire the Brahmos-M and Nirbay missiles. I can't see how it can be done unless the sub is made in India with deep ToT. In which case why not use scorpene as a template and add plug-in's for VLS and AIP?