Project-75I class SSK Submarines

Flame Thrower

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Soryu is a good sub but I don't believe IN really wants it. IN needs the next SSK's to be able to fire the Brahmos-M and Nirbay missiles. I can't see how it can be done unless the sub is made in India with deep ToT. In which case why not use scorpene as a template and add plug-in's for VLS and AIP?
Instead, why not make Indian Soryu in India with Japan help....get all the missing TOT pieces through Japan

10 yrs down the line, start for SSN and ask either of countries to be a part.
 

airtel

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We Got some Technologies from technologies from France & Russia , DRDO developed some technologies ................We Will get some technologies from Japan .

Most Probably we will Use Indian Torpedoes & other weapons in these Submarines .......Radars , Sonars , EW systems will be Indian .

Which torpedo does Soryu use?Any idea?
according to Wikipedia they use Type-89 torpedoes .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sōryū-class_submarine
 
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AmoghaVarsha

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We Got some Technologies from technologies from France & Russia , DRDO developed some technologies ................We Will get some technologies from Japan .

Most Probably we will Use Indian Torpedoes & other weapons in these Submarines .......Radars , Sonars , EW systems will be Indian .



according to Wikipedia they use Type-89 torpedoes .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sōryū-class_submarine
Hmmmm.Can these Type 89s be used in our Kalvari class?
 

Tshering22

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Could this be Indian navy's Shinkansen moment?

After losing the Australia sub contract, perhaps Japanese will be less condescending and more accommodating this time?
Japan has still not completely removed Article 9.

The reinterpretation still has some issues even though most of it has been changed.

There is a lot of domestic opposition to military trade or restricting sensitive technologies. The opposition parties have gone berserk and Abe is no longer having a majority government. This means that he cannot really do much in military cooperation.

I really hope that the Japanese realise that we are not the villains here.
 

tharun

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The reason why P-75I is delayed because of the close relationship between India & Russia.
Western counterparts are feared especially Japan that the technology will flow from India-Russia-China.
upload_2017-7-23_9-32-47.png
 
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Willy2

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What are the Japanese offering? Soryu? But I remember them refusing when Parrikar invited them earlier? Did something change in the pacifist stance of the Japanese public or did our new SP policy entice them? What changed?
Nothing specified ..it's possible that Japan came up with little downgraded version of Soryu......
 

Adioz

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The reason why P-75I is delayed because of the close relationship between India & Russia.
Western counterparts are feared especially Japan that the technology will flow from India-Russia-China.
View attachment 18050
Its crazy to believe that we would help China somehow get this tech. We know that if India -> Russia happens, Russia-> China will undoubtedly happen. So India has a national security interest in making sure that India -> Russia does not happen. All we gotta do is keep the ToT part under tight wraps (I know its easier said than done, but nevertheless.........)
 

Adioz

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Nothing specified ..it's possible that Japan came up with little downgraded version of Soryu......
So Soryu - AIP? We'll see. Japan will be desperate to win this deal, and therefore they will have to take risks here. They lost Australian deal, not a very large defence market. But they would not like to loose India: The biggest defence market (the tagline makes me blush).
 

indiandefencefan

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So Soryu - AIP? We'll see. Japan will be desperate to win this deal, and therefore they will have to take risks here. They lost Australian deal, not a very large defence market. But they would not like to loose India: The biggest defence market (the tagline makes me blush).
Sorry mate, Saudi Arabia has pipped us to become the largest spender on military acquisitions taking over the title of "biggest defense market".
But since Uncle Sam has virtually bagged all deals current and future, we are definitely "the most attractive" market.

Nothing specified ..it's possible that Japan came up with little downgraded version of Soryu......
That is paradoxical don't you think ?? Downgrading the tech decreases their chances of winning. On the contrary, I think the Soryu offered to us will be almost on par with the Japanese variants because for the past few years the Japs have been desperate to secure foreign arms deals but have kept failing (Australian Soryu bid and the Indian US-2 pitch) I don't see them screwing their chances when they know that Russia and France will not hold back much to win the deal.
 

lcafanboy

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INDIAN INPUTS TO GO INTO MAKING OF NEW, ADVANCED SUBMARINES
TUESDAY, JULY 25, 2017 BY INDIANDEFENSE NEWS


“We have a big industrial base for advanced equipment for submarines,” said a government source. The OEMs have been given details of the submarine equipment developed by DRDO
by Shaurya Karanbir Gurung

NEW DELHI:
With the issuing of a request for information (RFI) to six foreign firms to build highly lethal and advanced submarines, India is making efforts to ensure that there is maximum indigenous content in the project.
The firms will have to ensure that there is usage of Indian steel in the submarines,transfer of technology, including the design details and a tie up with an Indian shipyard under the strategic partnership model. The six submarines are believed will be the most advanced submarines in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR).


These type of submarines currently don’t exist and when produced will be their only kind. For India, they will greatly enhance its Navy’s warfare capabilities and be a deterrent to Chinese naval forays in the IOR. Around mid-July, the RFI was issued to the six Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) —France’s DCNS (Naval Group), Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Sweden’s Saab, Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation, Japan’s Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Spain’s Navantia.
Sources aware of the RFI said the selected OEM will have to ensure that there is maximum usage of indigenous content in the submarines, without compromising on their standards. “We have a big industrial base for advanced equipment for submarines,” said a government official. The OEMs have been given details of such industries and submarine equipment developed by DRDO that can be considered for the project.
Sources said that India also wants to use indigenous steel for the construction of submarines. The OEMs will have to determine whether this is possible. Furthermore, the OEMs will have to submit their designs for the submarines and identify the navies which are using the same design. India also wants that through the transfer of technology (ToT) it is able to receive the design details.
The requirement of ToT is mandatory for the OEMs to move ahead in the project. “The firms will have to detail how much technology they are willing to transfer. They will also have to give measures to support the strategic partnership model by setting up a system for integrating military platforms,” said an official.
The model aims at choosing Indian private firms as strategic partners to tie up with foreign OEMs to manufacture such platforms. The Project 75 (I) will be the first project under this model. The OEMs will partner Indian shipyards to build submarines.
Source>>
 

lcafanboy

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WILL JAPAN'S MITSUBISHI AND KAWASAKI BUILD INDIA'S NEXT PROJECT 75(I) AIP SUBMARINE?
TUESDAY, JULY 25, 2017 BY INDIANDEFENSE NEWS


A Soryu-class diesel electric attack submarine
Japan’s Mitsubish-Kawasaki consortium has received an RFI from the Indian Navy. Where does it lead?
by Ankit Panda

The Indian Navy has issued a request-for-information to six overseas manufacturers for an eventual $8 billion contract to build six advanced submarines with air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology under the Project 75(I) initiative.
“The Indian Navy has issued an RFI asking competent companies that have independently designed and constructed a modern submarine, which is either currently in service or is undergoing sea trials,” Indian officials told the Hindu.
The final shortlist of six manufacturers to have received the RFI includes ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (Germany), Naval Group (France), Navantia (Spain), Saab (Sweden), Rubin Design Bureau-Amur Shipyard (Russia and Italy), Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries (Japan).
The confirmation that Japan’s Mitsubishi-Kawasaki consortium has received an RFI from the Indian Navy is a significant development, if true. As the Diplomat discussed in early 2015, the Indian government had floated a proposal with the Japanese government to this effect more than two years ago. The move came shortly after Japan lifted its decades-long self-imposed ban on weapons exports.
The Soryu-class submarines built by Mitsubishi and Kawasaki are among the most advanced AIP-equipped diesel-electric submarines. Moreover, inviting Japanese firms to participate in the RFI for the Project 75(I) tender could benefit the broader strategic relationship between India and Japan, which grows closer every year.
However, Japan and India have long been bogged down in pricing negotiations over the sale of ShinMaywa US-2 amphibious aircraft. The pending deal, once completed, would be Japan’s most significant overseas defense-related sale since the lifting of the self-imposed ban on exports.
For Mitsubishi and Kawasaki, competing for the Indian Project 75(I) will offer an opportunity to move forward after losing Australia’s SEA-1000 contract to France’s DCNS. The Australian government ultimately chose the Shortfin Barracuda design for its Collins-class replacement, dealing a disappointing defeat to Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s government, which had hoped to see its first major overseas arms sale.
However, the Soryu, while an impressive submarine, appears to be the odd one out of likely offerings from the other five manufacturers. In particular, with a submerged displacement in excess of 4,200 tons, the Soryu is much larger than other offerings ranging from TKMS’ Type 214 (1,860 tons) to Rubin’s advanced Amur-class (1,100 tons).
The second-largest design would be Naviantia’s S-80 Plus-class submarine, which has a total submerged displacement of 2,426 tons. Mitsubishi and Kawasaki last built a sub-3,000 ton diesel-electric submarine in the 1990s, the Harushio-class.
Beyond its technical specifications, a Japanese submarine would be a new addition to the Indian Navy’s repertoire, potentially creating longer term maintenance and logistics challenges.
India already operates German Type 209 (Shishumar-class) submarines, Russian Kilo-class (Sindhughosh-class), and French Scorpene-class (Kalvari-class) submarines; moreover, two of the German-designed submarines, INS Shalki and INS Shankul, were made in India under a technology transfer agreement.
Despite this mismatch between the Soryu and the other five manufacturer offerings, the Japanese firms may see an edge if they see government backing on technology transfer to India.
According to the Hindu, the Project 75(I) RFI will require manufacturers to demonstrate that they could build these six submarines with a partner in India under Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ‘Make in India’ initiative.
Despite the difficulties that New Delhi and Tokyo have seen in concluding the US-2 sale, the Abe government may enthusiastically support the Mitsubishi-Kawasaki bid for the Indian Project 75(I) contract.
Source>>
 

lcafanboy

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Russia, Germany in Race for Indian Navy's $7.8 Billion Submarine Tender
© AFP 2017/ SEBASTIAN D'SOUZA


ASIA & PACIFIC

16:38 24.07.2017Get short URL
387664

India’s Ministry of Defense has asked six foreign shipbuilders to respond to the Indian Navy’s long-delayed Project 75 India (P-75I) program, which is worth over $7.8 billion.

New Delhi (Sputnik) — The request for information (RFI) has been sent to six selected overseas naval shipbuilders asking for details about locally building six diesel-electric submarines under newly-formulated strategic partnership model under which India’s private defense shipbuilder will collaborate with a foreign manufacturer.




© AP PHOTO/ RAFIQ MAQBOOL
India Begins Sea Trial of Second Indigenous Submarine

Official sources told Sputnik that Indian Navy had issued RFI on July 19 to Russia’s Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau, France’s Naval Group, Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Japan’s Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Spain’s Navantia, and Sweden’s Saab.


Companies will have to respond to the Indian Navy’s request by September 15 this year with operational details of their respective submarines with air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems and anti-surface, anti-submarine and land-attack capabilities.

“As all these submarines will be non-nuclear, AIP system will play a crucial role in getting Indian Navy’s contract. Companies like ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Naval Group are offering their AIP technology to India,” said an industry source.

This project will provide a major boost to country’s private defense firms like Larsen and Toubro, and Reliance Defence who are waiting since long for this delayed project.

“Scorpene project was delayed by years due to India’s state-owned shipbuilder MDL was not able to absorb the technology provided by original manufacturer DCNS and also it delayed due to several gray areas presented in the contract. Last time, the government had selected the company and configuration of the submarine, but this time under P75I, the government will shortlist the submarine and then ask the Indian private company to partner with the manufacturers. A number of private sector companies will participate in the bid and whoever gives the best deal will be selected for the project,” Laxman Kumar Behera, Research Fellow at Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA), said.




© AFP 2017/ STR
Russia, India Set to Discuss Creation of Anaerobic Power Unit for Submarines

It is expected that request for proposal of the project will only be issued after 2019 and the availability of the submarine will take another seven to eight years if everything goes according to plan. But the lack of experience of the private sector in the submarine manufacturing may pose a challenge to complete the project within a fixed time-frame.


Presently, Indian Navy has 13 diesel-electric submarines in service–9 Kilo-class and four Shishumar (Type 209/1500)-class, but only half of them are operational at any time. India has planned 18 conventional submarines apart from current 13 which are 17 to 31 years old. Two P-75 submarines are expected to join Indian Navy this year.



https://sputniknews.com/asia/201707241055829448-russia-germany-indian-navy-submarine/
 

kunal1123

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FROM THE PAST................................................


gentleseas.blogspot.in
Strengths & Weaknesses of the Contenders for Australia's Submarine Replacement Programme

10-13 minutes
Xavier Vavasseur of NavyRecognition has provided this interesting comparison of the three contenders for the future submarine (SEA 1000) process. Original link http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2777
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strengths & Weaknesses of the Contenders for Australia's Submarine Replacement Programme

By Xavier Vavasseur
Plans to replace the existing Royal Australian Navy's (RAN) Collins-class submarines began in 2007 with the launch of "SEA 1000" also known as the Future Submarine Programme. In February this year, the Australian Government announced the acquisition strategy for the Future Submarine Program and invited three countries: France, Germany and Japan to participate in a competitive evaluation process. Here is our analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of each contender:


» The Japanese Soryu class
» The German Type 216
» The French evolution of SSN Barracuda
The Royal Australian Navy aims at replacing its Collins-class submarines (HMAS Rankin pictured)
(U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist Seaman James R. Evans)

Before we start focusing on each of the three contenders, it is important to understand the fairly new and unique requirements of the RAN. So far and to this day, the majority of export submarines (such as the Kilo, Type 212 and 214, Scorpene, Agosta, A17…) displace around 2000 tons. They answer the needs of navies looking to patrol their coastal area, maritime approaches. Deployment on farther operational theatres requires long weeks of transit and probably port call for refueling and other logistic needs. The RAN needs are fairly unique (even though both TKMS and DCNS somewhat anticipated these needs) as it is looking for a multi-role, long endurance, long range submarine able to take part in joint operations with its allies. The combination of these factors translates into a well above 3000 tons submarines design. In addition, Navy Recognition understands the general consensus is that no matter which design gets selected, the RAN requires it to be fitted with US made combat management system (CMS) and weapons.

Japan Maritime Self Defense Force (JMSDF) Soryu class sub Hakuryu (SS-503)
(U.S. Navy photo by Cmdr. Christy Hagen/Released)


Soryu class submarineThroughout 2014, several news outlets (all of them US based such as Reuters) tried to infer that the Soryu class was favored by Australia and the procurement of Japanese submarines was almost a “done deal”. Today’s situation however appears to be more complicated for the Soryu as the Australian government decided to study proposals from two extra competitors.
The strengths of the Soryu class are:
- it appears as the only sea-proven design of the three contenders
- it is favored by the United States for political reasons (driven by the "Shift to Asia-Pacific region")
- because of the aforementioned political reasons, the aspects of US CMS and weapons are non-issues.
But will the Soryu really answer Australia’s needs? Looking closely at its reported performance it must be noted that these performance are actually quite similar to existing small or medium modern SSK such as the Kilo, Scorpene or Type 214. The reason may simply be the needs and doctrine of the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF): Looking at a map of Japan, one may realize that as soon as it leaves its base, a Soryu class SSK is already in patrol in proximity to North Korean or Chinese waters.

To match the Australian needs for long range and endurance, the Soryu will have to be modified with a new Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system and new Lithium Ion batteries among other things. In other words the end result would almost be a new submarine because of the major modifications required: For example, fitting new Lithium Ion batteries means a completely new electrical architecture, new ventilation schematics, newly designed engines to optimize the use of the batteries…
Another issue with the Soryu is Japan’s lack of experience in the fields of transfer of technology and industrial cooperation related to complex defense programmes.
The Type 216 is TKMS' long-range submarine project. Picture: ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems
Type 216 submarine

Revealed at Euronaval 2012, the Type 216 is German Shipbuilder TKMS' view of what a conventional propulsion long-range submarine should be.
The strengths of the Type 216 is that it is fully compliant (on paper) with the needs of "ocean going" navies (such as the RAN) looking for long-range submarines. In addition TKMS' past and present order book speaks for itself: TKMS submarines of all types (209,210,212A,214) are in service with the navies of 17 countries in addition to the German Navy. Finally, unlike the Japanese offer, TKMS is used to complex defense programmes cooperation with local partners.
However, what may limit the Type 216 chances in the SEA 1000 programme is uncertainty on two aspects:
The first uncertainty aspect is TKMS' lack of experience in building large submarines. The design of submarines requires a pre-sizing capability: For example, the basic requirements in terms of speed and endurance drive the electrical and engine power requirement of the submarine which themselves impact the volumes and compartments of the submarines. This pre-sizing capability is based on both experience and empirical knowledge.The design rules (which may even be considered "empirical laws") when building submarines are not linear. In other words, TKMS will not be able to use all of its extensive experience in building under 2,000 tons submarines if it ever starts constructing the 4,000 tons Type 216 one day. Again, the pre-sizing phase is critical. Navantia's (which is another reputable shipbuilder based in Spain) issues with the S80 class SSK is a recent example. The first unit of this new type of submarine needs to be redesigned because a "weight imbalance" was detected. In a large submarine, all of the equipment needs to be "over sized" and this impacts everything on board: Larger or more machinery implies larger or more sea water circuit which requires more weight and room...
A submarine designed for long range and endurance needs to be designed with more reliability, more redundancy and even a workshop for maintenance on the go (as is found on board most nuclear submarines [SSN]). Last but not least, other important parameters need to be considered such as human factors (possibly more space for the crew, better atmosphere, more fresh water...).
The second uncertainty aspect is the issue of US made CMS and weapons. Nothing guarantees that the US government will agree to share sensitive CMS data and weapons blueprints with TKMS for integration. While some TKMS built submarines are fitted with UGM-84 Harpoon (with the Portuguese Navy Type 214), it remains to be seen whether the US will agree to share its Tomahawk cruise missile data with Germany.

A Barracuda type (Suffren class) SSN. Picture: French Navy

Evolution of SSN Barracuda into a conventional submarine
DCNS proposes an evolution of the Barracuda type SSN - currently in production for the French Navy- into a conventional submarine fully compliant with the needs of “ocean going” navies.
The main strength of this submarine is that it exceeds the capabilities of its competitors in terms of speed, endurance and weapons. According to DCNS, a number of key innovations give the submarine a truly outstanding performance.

* NB: These performances are those of the nuclear version.

The transit speed is at least 40% higher than those of its competitors which is significant. It is important to understand that the faster a submarine can deploy, the more operational it becomes because it can spend more time in the mission area.
Like TKMS, DCNS is used to complex defense programmes cooperation with local partners so the industrial aspect is definitely not a problem. There may even be some historical commonality if Australia selects the DCNS solution: The Collins class submarines currently deployed by the RAN are fitted with French Jeumont-Schneider engines, a manufacturer present in all DCNS submarines. Likewise, many systems on board the Collins class such as the sonar systems are Thales products, and so is the case for all DCNS submarines.
Last but not least, DCNS has extensive experience in designing and building large submarine since the company was in charge of designing and building the (former) Redoutable and (current) Triomphant class ballistic missile submarines (SSBN), the backbone of French nuclear deterrence.
The main factor that is not in favor of DCNS is again the issue of US made CMS and weapons. The issue is definitely not technical: Since the Agosta 90B, DCNS submarines are "open architecture" to facilitate the integration of new systems and weapons (therefore the installation of a CMS and weapons of American origin are not a technical problem). Regarding that (political) aspect, DCNS is in the same situation as TKMS: nothing guarantees that the US government will agree to sharing information for weapons and systems integration.
In April 2015, the Chief of Royal Australian Navy, Vice Admiral Tim Barrett, and Australia's Defense Minister, the Honorable Kevin Andrews (pictured here with France's Defense Minister) visited TKMS in Germany and DCNS submarine shipyard in France.
The formal RAN requirements for the Collins submarines replacement have not been made public yet, but like in many international procurement contracts, it is likely that political aspects will be given priority with the technical aspects coming a distant second. It appears also that no matter which platform Australia selects, their American allies will give the ultimate "green light"... or not.
That being said, despite many US media picturing the Japanese Soryu as a "done deal" last year, Australia is giving full consideration to the three contenders invited to participate in a competitive evaluation process earlier this year. A simple illustration of this fact: The visit last April by the Chief of Royal Australian Navy, Vice Admiral Tim Barrett, and Australia's Defense Minister, the Honorable Kevin Andrews, of TKMS shipyard in Germany and then of DCNS shipyard in Cherbourg (where the Barracuda type SSNs are being assembled for the French Navy).
 

kunal1123

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Focus - P75I Indian Navy Submarine Project

Likely Contenders for Indian Navy P-75I Submarine Project

According to Indian English-language daily newspaper Hindustan Times, the Indian Navy recently submitted a Request for Information (RFI) to six shipbuilders to build six new submarines as part of the Project 75(I) (P-75I). Valued at €8.3-billion, India's biggest submarine procurement to date, P-75I is set to scale-up the Indian Navy submarine warfare capabilities. Important criterias that will guide supplier choice will be the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, the means proposed to increase “endurance and stealth capability, anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare capability, and land attack capability” as well as other aspects such as transfer of technology (ToT).
Here is a brief overview of the likely 6 contenders for P-75I:


Saab new generation SSK Kockums A26. Picture: Saab


A26 - Sweden (Saab Kockums)
According to Saab, the A26 is a unique submarine with proven modular design, silent long-endurance Saab’s A26 uses the latest stealth technology and advanced tactical communication to allow submarines to integrate their communications with those of other defence forces and civilian agencies. Operational flexibility, together with a comprehensive weapons suite, enables it to carry out a wide variety of missions. The A26 submarine is designed for the following missions: Maritime security operations, Intelligence operations, Covert mine countermeasure operations, Special operations by carrying, deploying and retrieving special forces along with equipment and underwater vehicles, Underwater work, Anti-submarine & anti-surface warfare, Mine-laying in covert mode.

Specifications (baseline)
Displacement: 1900 tons
Length: 63 meters
Beam: 6.4 meters

Computer rendering of an Amur-1650 class SSK. Image: Rubin

AMUR-1650 - Russia (Rubin)
The Amur-class is the export variant of the Russian Lada-class. According to its designer, compared to Kilo class submarines, the Amur 1650 submarine features a reduced displacement. The boat is distinguished by the capability of firing up to 6 missiles in a salvo against targets at sea and on shore, state-of-the-art electronic warfare systems and a sonar with a unique passive antenna to detect silent targets at a large range. Acoustic signature of the Amur 1650 submarine is several times lower compared to Kilo class submarines which are currently considered to be the most silent in the world. The submarine is equipped with electronic warfare systems of new generation based on the recent hi-tech solutions. The submarine can be operated in any oceanic area, except for the regions with extensive ice fields, at any weather, and in shallow and deep waters.

Specifications (baseline)
Displacement: 1765 tons
Length: 66.8 meters
Beam: 7.1 meters

Computer rendering of an S-80 class SSK. Image: Navantia

S-80 - Spain (Navantia)
The S-80 class (or Isaac Peral class) are AIP (air independent propulsion) submarines currently under construction for the Spanish Navy. Four boats have been ordered, three of which are under construction by Navantia at its yard in Cartagena. Construction of the submarines had been suspended in early 2013, when it was found that the first submarine in the series, the Isaac Peral, was 75 to 100 tons too heavy relative to its length. General Dynamics Electric Boat was brought in by Navantia through a Foreign Military Sale in 2013 to tackle the weight distribution issues. Each submarine has been stretched with a 10 meters ring to better distribute the weight of the submarine. The intended delivery date of the first submarine is 2018.

Specifications (baseline)
Displacement: 2200 tons
Length: 71.05 meters
Beam: 11.68 meters

Kalvari, the first of the six Scorpene class submarines built locally for the Indian Navy, started sea trials on June 1st, 2017. Indian Navy picture.

Scorpene - France (Naval Group)
According to Naval Group, the Scorpene is a conventional-propulsion submarine designed for all types of mission, such as surface vessel warfare, anti-submarine warfare, long-range strikes, special operations or intelligence gathering. With 14 submarines sold, the Scorpene proposed by Naval Group has now become an essential reference product in the area of conventional attack submarines (SSK) for Navies across the globe. Six submarines of the P75 project are being built by MDL through technology transfers from DCNS for the Indian Navy. "Kalvari", the first Scorpene class diesel-electric submarine (SSK) was launched in the water on 28th October 2015 in Mumbai. It started sea trials in May last year. The sea trials campaign went well and left Indian submariners with a very good impression. "Khanderi", the second submarine in the series, was launched in January 2017 and started sea trials in June. Four other submarines will follow in the wake of Khanderi, at intervals of nine months.

Specifications (baseline)
Displacement: 1870 tons
Length: 61.7 meters
Beam: 6.2 meters

Launch of SS-508 Sekiryu, the 8th Soryu-class SSK for the JMSDF, in November 2015. Picture: Kawasaki Heavy Industries

Soryu - Japan (MHI / KHI)
Ten Soryu class submarines are planned for the JMSDF. The class is an improved version of the Oyashio Class submarine. Soryu-class submarines are the world's largest conventionally powered submarines. They have an excellent operational track record and are equipped with state-of-the art technologies, including air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems that enable them to remain fully submerged for long periods of time, and advanced stealth technologies that make them more difficult to detect.

Specifications (baseline)
Displacement: 2900 tons
Length: 84.0 meters
Beam: 9.1 meters

A Portuguese Navy Type 214 SSK. Picture: TKMS

Type 214 - Germany (TKMS)
According to TKMS, the Type 214 is based on the proven design principles of the HDW Class 209 family with additional incorporation of innovative features of HDW Class 212A. The submarine represents a matchless, cost-effective solution for future-oriented navies, which is predestined for anti-surface ship/submarine operations, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance tasks as well as for special forces operations. It is well equipped to undertake a wide scope of missions ranging from operations in littoral waters to ocean-going patrols.

Specifications (baseline)
Displacement: 1700 tons
Length: 65.0 meters
Beam: 6.3 meters
 

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WILL JAPAN'S MITSUBISHI AND KAWASAKI BUILD INDIA'S NEXT PROJECT 75(I) AIP SUBMARINE?
TUESDAY, JULY 25, 2017 BY INDIANDEFENSE NEWS


A Soryu-class diesel electric attack submarine
Japan’s Mitsubish-Kawasaki consortium has received an RFI from the Indian Navy. Where does it lead?
by Ankit Panda

The Indian Navy has issued a request-for-information to six overseas manufacturers for an eventual $8 billion contract to build six advanced submarines with air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology under the Project 75(I) initiative.
“The Indian Navy has issued an RFI asking competent companies that have independently designed and constructed a modern submarine, which is either currently in service or is undergoing sea trials,” Indian officials told the Hindu.
The final shortlist of six manufacturers to have received the RFI includes ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (Germany), Naval Group (France), Navantia (Spain), Saab (Sweden), Rubin Design Bureau-Amur Shipyard (Russia and Italy), Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries (Japan).
The confirmation that Japan’s Mitsubishi-Kawasaki consortium has received an RFI from the Indian Navy is a significant development, if true. As the Diplomat discussed in early 2015, the Indian government had floated a proposal with the Japanese government to this effect more than two years ago. The move came shortly after Japan lifted its decades-long self-imposed ban on weapons exports.
The Soryu-class submarines built by Mitsubishi and Kawasaki are among the most advanced AIP-equipped diesel-electric submarines. Moreover, inviting Japanese firms to participate in the RFI for the Project 75(I) tender could benefit the broader strategic relationship between India and Japan, which grows closer every year.
However, Japan and India have long been bogged down in pricing negotiations over the sale of ShinMaywa US-2 amphibious aircraft. The pending deal, once completed, would be Japan’s most significant overseas defense-related sale since the lifting of the self-imposed ban on exports.
For Mitsubishi and Kawasaki, competing for the Indian Project 75(I) will offer an opportunity to move forward after losing Australia’s SEA-1000 contract to France’s DCNS. The Australian government ultimately chose the Shortfin Barracuda design for its Collins-class replacement, dealing a disappointing defeat to Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s government, which had hoped to see its first major overseas arms sale.
However, the Soryu, while an impressive submarine, appears to be the odd one out of likely offerings from the other five manufacturers. In particular, with a submerged displacement in excess of 4,200 tons, the Soryu is much larger than other offerings ranging from TKMS’ Type 214 (1,860 tons) to Rubin’s advanced Amur-class (1,100 tons).
The second-largest design would be Naviantia’s S-80 Plus-class submarine, which has a total submerged displacement of 2,426 tons. Mitsubishi and Kawasaki last built a sub-3,000 ton diesel-electric submarine in the 1990s, the Harushio-class.
Beyond its technical specifications, a Japanese submarine would be a new addition to the Indian Navy’s repertoire, potentially creating longer term maintenance and logistics challenges.
India already operates German Type 209 (Shishumar-class) submarines, Russian Kilo-class (Sindhughosh-class), and French Scorpene-class (Kalvari-class) submarines; moreover, two of the German-designed submarines, INS Shalki and INS Shankul, were made in India under a technology transfer agreement.
Despite this mismatch between the Soryu and the other five manufacturer offerings, the Japanese firms may see an edge if they see government backing on technology transfer to India.
According to the Hindu, the Project 75(I) RFI will require manufacturers to demonstrate that they could build these six submarines with a partner in India under Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ‘Make in India’ initiative.
Despite the difficulties that New Delhi and Tokyo have seen in concluding the US-2 sale, the Abe government may enthusiastically support the Mitsubishi-Kawasaki bid for the Indian Project 75(I) contract.
Source>>
France offer has three main quality :
1) Mazagon is now fully aware of our technology, so building a new french tech. based sub will be easier (remember how many times it takes to do so... with a new supplier methods, materials, quality controls will be slightly to heavily different so more delay)
2) Scorpene is now known by IN. unlike competitors... and specially paper subs...
3) With the Shortfin Barracuda, France proved to be able to study and produce a heavy SSK. If you need something between Scorpene and Shortfin Barracuda, France is the best solution.
 

BON PLAN

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Russia, Germany in Race for Indian Navy's $7.8 Billion Submarine Tender
© AFP 2017/ SEBASTIAN D'SOUZA


ASIA & PACIFIC

16:38 24.07.2017Get short URL
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India’s Ministry of Defense has asked six foreign shipbuilders to respond to the Indian Navy’s long-delayed Project 75 India (P-75I) program, which is worth over $7.8 billion.

New Delhi (Sputnik) — The request for information (RFI) has been sent to six selected overseas naval shipbuilders asking for details about locally building six diesel-electric submarines under newly-formulated strategic partnership model under which India’s private defense shipbuilder will collaborate with a foreign manufacturer.




© AP PHOTO/ RAFIQ MAQBOOL
India Begins Sea Trial of Second Indigenous Submarine

Official sources told Sputnik that Indian Navy had issued RFI on July 19 to Russia’s Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau, France’s Naval Group, Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Japan’s Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Spain’s Navantia, and Sweden’s Saab.


Companies will have to respond to the Indian Navy’s request by September 15 this year with operational details of their respective submarines with air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems and anti-surface, anti-submarine and land-attack capabilities.

“As all these submarines will be non-nuclear, AIP system will play a crucial role in getting Indian Navy’s contract. Companies like ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Naval Group are offering their AIP technology to India,” said an industry source.

This project will provide a major boost to country’s private defense firms like Larsen and Toubro, and Reliance Defence who are waiting since long for this delayed project.

“Scorpene project was delayed by years due to India’s state-owned shipbuilder MDL was not able to absorb the technology provided by original manufacturer DCNS and also it delayed due to several gray areas presented in the contract. Last time, the government had selected the company and configuration of the submarine, but this time under P75I, the government will shortlist the submarine and then ask the Indian private company to partner with the manufacturers. A number of private sector companies will participate in the bid and whoever gives the best deal will be selected for the project,” Laxman Kumar Behera, Research Fellow at Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA), said.




© AFP 2017/ STR
Russia, India Set to Discuss Creation of Anaerobic Power Unit for Submarines

It is expected that request for proposal of the project will only be issued after 2019 and the availability of the submarine will take another seven to eight years if everything goes according to plan. But the lack of experience of the private sector in the submarine manufacturing may pose a challenge to complete the project within a fixed time-frame.


Presently, Indian Navy has 13 diesel-electric submarines in service–9 Kilo-class and four Shishumar (Type 209/1500)-class, but only half of them are operational at any time. India has planned 18 conventional submarines apart from current 13 which are 17 to 31 years old. Two P-75 submarines are expected to join Indian Navy this year.



https://sputniknews.com/asia/201707241055829448-russia-germany-indian-navy-submarine/
Sputnik....
They seemed to know only German (a belief or memory of WW2 ? lol) and themselves.
 

airtel

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France offer has three main quality :
1) Mazagon is now fully aware of our technology, so building a new french tech. based sub will be easier (remember how many times it takes to do so... with a new supplier methods, materials, quality controls will be slightly to heavily different so more delay)
2) Scorpene is now known by IN. unlike competitors... and specially paper subs...
3) With the Shortfin Barracuda, France proved to be able to study and produce a heavy SSK. If you need something between Scorpene and Shortfin Barracuda, France is the best solution.

Japanese have 2 big advantages.

1) Japan has invested billions of dollars in India...... They are investing more in Indian infrastructure projects and economy...... Creating millions of jobs.
So we can return the favor by buying Japanese products.

2)we have a common enemy =China..... So we can make our common strategy to counter china.
 
Last edited:

IndianHawk

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France offer has three main quality :
1) Mazagon is now fully aware of our technology, so building a new french tech. based sub will be easier (remember how many times it takes to do so... with a new supplier methods, materials, quality controls will be slightly to heavily different so more delay)
2) Scorpene is now known by IN. unlike competitors... and specially paper subs...
3) With the Shortfin Barracuda, France proved to be able to study and produce a heavy SSK. If you need something between Scorpene and Shortfin Barracuda, France is the best solution.
And the leaked data . Don't forget about it.

Anyway the final deal will depend upon much more. If scorpion can come with huge discount on next batch of rafale. I sense a deal can be worked out.
 

IndianHawk

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Japanese have 2 big advantages.

1) Japan has invested billions of dollars in India...... They are investing more in Indian infrastructure projects and economy...... Creating millions of jobs.
So we can return the favor by buying Japanese products.

2)we have a common enemy =China..... So we can make our common strategy to counter china.
You are spot on. In civilian projects Japanese have done tremendous tech transfer. India makes most of it's metro system itself these days. If they agree for same level of tech transfer. They will win.
 

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