Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[Senior_Miguel]

Hmm.. I missed this news.
But I still stick with S-80 or modified Type 214.

S-80 is still being developed and Navantia has had some problems with it (design flaws), so they even don't know, when they will commission first vessel for themeselves, hence it hasn't been tested in operational conditions.

 

[Senior_Miguel]

That's fine.

But I like Soryu class. It's better.

One another.......SAAB's A26 project.

It's just a project. After taking over Kockums from TKMS, Saab has to make up its mind if it wants to continue on the A26 or start o new project (or at least develope a modified A26). Sole A26 is a bit obselete now (first design works started in the 1990').

 

[Sea Eagle]

S-80 is still being developed and Navantia has had some problems with it (design flaws), so they even don't know, when they will commission first vessel for themeselves, hence it hasn't been tested in operational conditions.

The S-80 would enter service by 2017. Design flaws are being corrected. S-80 has the most mordern AIP that exists as of now.
Agreed that S-80 is completly untested but so is the Amur class submarines.

 

[Senior_Miguel]

The S-80 would enter service by 2017. Design flaws are being corrected. S-80 has the most mordern AIP that exists as of now.
Agreed that S-80 is completly untested but so is the Amur class submarines.

Ok, but you have to anwser yourself, whether you want a sub of a new design, possiblity slightly more advanced than Scorpene or Type 214 - BUT not tested and actually with no confidence in its operational potential or do you want a sub that has been in service for years and can still provide you with a big technological step forward?

 

[Zebra]

The two sub buy is an emergency buy, see point one that I made earlier. Amur is a modified Kilo class. We faced a major loss and the navy wants a replacement. Amur is the only logical choice because we already have trained crews and infrastructure.

Nowadays, for India, which defense procurements are not on emergency. I wonder.

We buy Russian because we are far closer to them than any other country, not even France and Israel. Our govt to govt deals are free of corruption and are done very quickly, unlike the long drawn tenders which takes years and years. If MoD approves the 2 sub purchase, the contract will be signed very quickly. The level of maturity between our two countries is something that we don't have with the others.

The Russians not even allow India to keep their leg properly in CAR and you cry for 'closer to them than any other country'!
Even after these much years India is still struggling for it. The CAR base is not fully operational, I wonder why?

We all saw 'how govt to govt deals are free of corruption and are done very quickly'. The best example is Gorshkov deal. They literally pissed on India.
And (over-matured) people still love to bow down in front of them.

If a different supplier wins, it will be independent of the Amur deal. Amur is an attrition replacement.

Stay away from another Russian junk.

Your immaturity and butt hurt is noticeable. Japan has not exported any offensive weapons systems to date. They changed their laws only recently to allows exports and the export of Soryu to Australia is just one such contract. At best we can manage to buy the amphibious aircraft from Japan. Expecting to buy the Soryu is quite silly and for that Japan has to continue to make changes to their laws so they can sell to India. Allowing sale of offensive weapons to India is going to take a long time. We can't force them to sell to us, they will have to reply to the global RFP. Currently, they are allowing exports on a case-by-case basis.

Get some life dude. We all know why Japan has not exported it after WW-2.

But now they are coming in export business. They make some deal with some country bcz that country approached early.

But we can do the same thing now. It's all up to the PM of Japan and India. They know each other much better. Things can be much smoother if they wish to go further in defense cooperation.

Japan Inc. Now Exporting Weapons - WSJ
Read the long article and get a clue about how the system is. The govt didn't make it a free for all sale to all and sundry.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/sourabh-jyoti-sharma/forecasting-indiajapan-ties-under-modi-and-abe

Dealing with Russia is like shopping at a supermarket. Buy whatever you want, check out and use it on anybody you want. They don't tell us how to use it, where to use it and when to use it.

Dealing with other countries is far more difficult. Like in the American FMS deal, they decide what you can buy and what you cannot. After that also you cannot decide on your own configurations, you cannot add your own equipment without the Americans checking it first and there will be restrictions in using those systems during wartime and peacetime, apart from intrusive checks that you already know of.

Russia never offered so many things to India. May be they don't display such things in their supermarket for India. I guess.

Even they offered PAK-FA to China first.

As for why IA cannot buy western tanks, it is more to do with common sense than some sinister conspiracy. Most of the production lines are closed and the only option is Abrams because the Germans won't sell us Leo-2 by law. They cannot sell a completely offensive system to IA because our country is at risk of war. Even they make a case by case sale of offensive weapons. They made a concession in MRCA because other countries were involved and they were desperate to keep the program alive, which they are even today. We are yet to see if the govt will approve the sale of Type-214. So who the heck wants Abrams with its export armor and unlicensed weapons, with inspections and restrictions of usage? Common sense beats nationalist pride any day.

Ever Indian govt tried to buy any western tanks, in recent years?
'Common sense' in what? Ignoring home made tanks over Russian junks. I guess.

You are an idiot if you think the Russians have bad equipment. Don't buy into silly western propaganda. We have won entire wars with Russian weapons.

The MoD of India didn't allow Mig 35 in MRCA.

Now if some one call it as junks then he/she become idiot. Yeah?

And no, we are not a Russian stooge. Maybe we were like that with the Soviet Union, but that is not so with the Russians. We are slowly becoming equal partners. Eventually we may end up partnering in much larger projects than the FGFA in the future, so our relationship will continue for a very long time. At least it looks set until 2050 with the FGFA.

First prove you are not Russian stooge.
Stay away from them. Get some life. There are much more to get from others. Don't keep all your eggs in only two baskets.

 

[Zebra]

It's just a project. After taking over Kockums from TKMS, Saab has to make up its mind if it wants to continue on the A26 or start o new project (or at least develope a modified A26). Sole A26 is a bit obselete now (first design works started in the 1990').

You are talking about 'U-bat 2000'. It was in 1990.

 

[Zebra]

It's just a project. After taking over Kockums from TKMS, Saab has to make up its mind if it wants to continue on the A26 or start o new project (or at least develope a modified A26). Sole A26 is a bit obselete now (first design works started in the 1990').

Little part of this article--> (dated 23/7/13)
Sweden Submarine Capabilities | Articles | NTI Analysis | NTI

Like Sweden's current fleet, the A26 will be equipped with Stirling AIP. It is designed for intelligence and stealth operations in shallow waters, but will also have open sea capabilities. [5] According to the A26 concept, the submarine will be based on a modular design to make possible the rapid reformatting of the vessel for varying tasks. Given Sweden's small fleet, it is critical that such operations can be accomplished in a minimal amount of time. The A26 will include a large bow section from which unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs) can be launched, transport special forces, and can be used for reconnaissance, mine detection, mine laying, and underwater mapping, as well as warfighting. [6] Kockums is investigating several ways to improve communications with onshore command without giving up the submarine's position, including the possible use of UUVs for communications purposes or new antennas on the submarine. [7]

 

[p2prada]

Agreed that S-80 is completly untested but so is the Amur class submarines.

Amur is a modified Kilo class. S-80 is a modified Scorpene class.

 

[p2prada]

The Russians not even allow India to keep their leg properly in CAR and you cry for 'closer to them than any other country'!
Even after these much years India is still struggling for it. The CAR base is not fully operational, I wonder why?

So what? It takes time to get proper clearances from three govts. This has nothing to do with the fact that they transfer technology wherever necessary.

We all saw 'how govt to govt deals are free of corruption and are done very quickly'. The best example is Gorshkov deal. They literally pissed on India.

Both sides are to blame for the Gorky deal, not just the Russians. And we got a ship we couldn't have from any other place at such a low cost. Gorky was corruption free.

Get some life dude. We all know why Japan has not exported it after WW-2.

But now they are coming in export business. They make some deal with some country bcz that country approached early.

But we can do the same thing now. It's all up to the PM of Japan and India. They know each other much better. Things can be much smoother if they wish to go further in defense cooperation.

Then why haven't they replied to RFP?

Russia never offered so many things to India. May be they don't display such things in their supermarket for India. I guess.

Like what? They even offered the Object 195 to India. According to the Russians the Obj 195 is open for export only to India.

Even they offered PAK-FA to China first.

They offered PAKFA to Brazil also.

Ever Indian govt tried to buy any western tanks, in recent years?

Why would they? We have the T-90 and pretty soon work on the FMBT.

'Common sense' in what? Ignoring home made tanks over Russian junks. I guess.

What homemade tank? Where is it? I don't see it.

The MoD of India didn't allow Mig 35 in MRCA.

What are you talking about?

Now if some one call it as junks then he/she become idiot. Yeah?

Give the reason for why it is junk.

First prove you are not Russian stooge.

Wow. Prove that you aren't an idiot.

 

[Sea Eagle]

Amur is a modified Kilo class. S-80 is a modified Scorpene class.

Every submarine in the competition is based on some existing design. So what point do you want to make ?

 

[p2prada]

Every submarine in the competition is based on some existing design. So what point do you want to make ?

That the submarines are untested doesn't really hold much water.

 

[Pulkit]

This has nothing to do with the fact that they transfer technology wherever necessary
Like what? They even offered the Object 195 to India. According to the Russians the Obj 195 is open for export only to India.

I believe u r referring to T-95 when you talk about Object 195...
if yes isn't it an abandoned /closed Project?

What does your statement prooves then?

 

[Sea Eagle]

That the submarines are untested doesn't really hold much water.

Not really, the Russian AIP performance is still unknown. It is their first try so we just can't blindly trust whatever they say. Meanwhile Amur 950 is another story !!

 

[p2prada]

I believe u r referring to T-95 when you talk about Object 195...
if yes isn't it an abandoned /closed Project?

What does your statement prooves then?

It was canceled because it was determined that the army couldn't afford it. At 55 tons it was too heavy, even though it had twice the armor mass as a 3rd gen tank and a 155 mm gun.

However Damian posted a link which said that the Russians were willing to export it to just one country, the country wasn't named, but it is obvious which country they were talking about.

My statement proves that the Russians are very comfortable having a serious military relationship with us. Even though it may see like a monetary based relationship, the type of technology offered was beyond what we can get from any other country.

Not really, the Russian AIP performance is still unknown. It is their first try so we just can't blindly trust whatever they say. Meanwhile Amur 950 is another story !!

That isn't much of a valid concern. The subs themselves are proven even if the AIP performance is unknown. We can't classify a sub as unproven just because the AIP is not proven.

There are negative reviews about even proven systems.
India Looks to Modify Scorpene Subs With MESMA AIP Propulsion

An article in Undersea Warfare Magazine external link notes that: "although MESMA can provide higher output power than the other alternatives, its inherent efficiency is the lowest of the four AIP candidates, and its rate of oxygen consumption is correspondingly higher."

Let's allow our technical officers to determine which is the best sub for us. They will follow similar procedures as the MRCA, shortlist two and get the cheapest one.

 

[Apollyon]

^

March 25, 2014

On the air independent propulsion (AIP) system, which will considerably enhance the underwater endurance of conventional diesel-electric submarines, Mr. Rao said talks are under way with French firm DCNS to install the DRDO-developed AIP based on hydrogen fuel cell on the last Scorpene submarine built at Mazagaon Dock under the Navy's Project 75.

"Our technology is proven on a land-based prototype. A submarine-based prototype plug weighing nearly 300 tonnes is now being worked on. The French MESMA AIP being offered for the Scorpenes is an old system with a steam turbine," he said. The DRDO AIP can be reconfigured for the second line of future conventional submarines under P75 I as well, he added.

DRDO developing onboard equipment monitoring system for submarines - The Hindu

 

[Zebra]

So what? It takes time to get proper clearances from three govts. This has nothing to do with the fact that they transfer technology wherever necessary.

Ha ha ha, So sweet. All these years who fixed spanners in 'get proper clearances'. The funny part here is the Russian stooges keep talking.....'so what?' like nothing to worry in it and it is normal.

What you guys gonna do with so much of ToT? Did it help, I wonder.
I am asking it bcz it won't help to develop all new and your own anyway.

And still Russian stooges are not aware that their masters already refused ToT for Smerch.

Both sides are to blame for the Gorky deal, not just the Russians. And we got a ship we couldn't have from any other place at such a low cost. Gorky was corruption free.

I agree with you here. Indian side is also responsible here, their fault is they bought another Russian junk. How come the price gone nearly $3 billion.
That too for old junk.

CAG slams Govt, Navy over Gorshkov deal

On top of it god knows how much it needs to get proper on board air defense system.

Then why haven't they replied to RFP?

How many times you ask the same crap?

For Japan there are no requirement to reply the RFP bcz nobody sent it to them as of yet.

Again better go govt to govt deal. Just like past, all the Indian govts love to do business with the Russians on govt to govt basis.

Adopt the same for Japan also.

Like what? They even offered the Object 195 to India. According to the Russians the Obj 195 is open for export only to India.

Ha ha, When no one wants to buy it, even their own defense personals reject it, then all those get offered to India. And our Russian stooges keep cheer up for it.

They offered PAKFA to Brazil also.

What happened next, did they accept it? Good till date, they proved themselves that they are not Russian stooges.

Why would they? We have the T-90 and pretty soon work on the FMBT.

Again and again, good to Russian stooges. Keep buying more and more Russian junks.

God knows how much actually they paid for and for what. Even their mouthpiece Indian media kept blind eye on it.

What homemade tank? Where is it? I don't see it.

You won't see it anyway. That's how Russian stooges kept killing Indian effort for defense stuff. And we are here vulnerable, remain to buy it from other countries, or make at home which was actually developed by others.

What are you talking about?

Give the reason for why it is junk.

Indeed, it was the first in RFP list. Against IAF's wish though.

Even one of IAF chief pulled the plug by saying something like for MiG-35.....we want MRCA, to win the war, not for circus.

But those words are all gone form net now. A kind of nut job by Russian stooges, I guess.

Wow. Prove that you aren't an idiot.

Naa. No need to prove it anyway bcz we are idiots.

I agree with you.

What else can we say about ourselves, when we buy so much Russian weapons?

 

[Pulkit]

It was canceled because it was determined that the army couldn't afford it. At 55 tons it was too heavy, even though it had twice the armor mass as a 3rd gen tank and a 155 mm gun.

However Damian posted a link which said that the Russians were willing to export it to just one country, the country wasn't named, but it is obvious which country they were talking about.

My statement proves that the Russians are very comfortable having a serious military relationship with us. Even though it may see like a monetary based relationship, the type of technology offered was beyond what we can get from any other country.

They could not afford it so they offered to us(NO Confirmation that the nation is ours ).....Its heavy for them so it will definitely be heavy for us as Arjun was also too heavy...

The relation with Russia can be proved by the fact they leased us Nuke Sub,Sold us a A/C carrier and many others though it was for there own benefits too....

yes they have offered technology beyond what we can get from any other country but I humbly deny the reason you gave regarding T-95.... .

 

[Senior_Miguel]

Little part of this article--> (dated 23/7/13)
Sweden Submarine Capabilities | Articles | NTI Analysis | NTI

Yeah, but it doesn't change a thing. A26 is still just a project. First subs for Svenska Marinen are expected to be haded over in couple of years.

 

[Senior_Miguel]

Every submarine in the competition is based on some existing design. So what point do you want to make ?

Agreed, but ther's a difference between making an upgraded version of one sub desing (let's say, Mk2, Mk3 etc.) and a completely new sub desing.

 

[Zebra]

Yeah, but it doesn't change a thing. A26 is still just a project. First subs for Svenska Marinen are expected to be haded over in couple of years.

Project, that is what I also said.

here....

That's fine.

But I like Soryu class. It's better.

One another.......SAAB's A26 project.

And first sub in couple of years!

That is news for me.

Thanks for that.