PAK FA preliminary Stealth Assesment - Ausairpower

[TrueSpirit]

Very informative conversation:

Interview with General designer "Saturn" Yuri Shmotin :

One of the biggest challenges currently facing the Russian aircraft engine is a development of the second stage engine for the aircraft PAK FA (T-50). Most of the work on the creation of this engine performs Rybinsk "Saturn."

About that, at what stage is the creation of the engine, which features the new aircraft will become the "heart" told "Interfax-AVN" chief designer "Saturn" Yuri SHMOTIN.

- Yuri, tell us what should be the engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft? What are its main features?

- The plane of the fifth generation T-50 is not just a fighter, bomber or attack aircraft. This multi-purpose aircraft. Such aircraft should be given a new "heart", which would make it highly maneuverable, fast, cost-effective and able to withstand such competitors as American F-22 and F-35.

Engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft will be different from the previous generation increased specific thrust, lower weight, reduced specific fuel consumption and the presence of new solutions for low visibility. In this case, it should be relatively cheap to operate and maintain. "Saturn" is currently working on such an engine.

- What units and aggregates of the new engine is given special attention in the development? What is the greatest challenge for the engineers?

- In aircraft engines, everything is important. One of the most complicated engine components is a high-pressure turbine. We were asked to make a turbine operating at this level of temperature at which the metal nickel alloys just melted. This work was successful.

The heart of an aircraft engine is a high-pressure compressor. Of its level of excellence is directly dependent all basic characteristics of the engine. The amount of detail in the new high-pressure compressor, we have managed to reduce by almost half compared with the previous stage of the compressor, while providing a significant performance increase by one level. The cost of making such a compressor will not exceed the cost of making HPC engine fourth generation. This is subject to the application of new materials and technologies.

Solving these and other problems, we will get to a gas generator with a new level of performance, which will be the basis for a new family of engines. Characteristics of the gas generator units, such as the effectiveness of the ARC, increased on average by more than four percent, and on a number of modes and eight. In fact, it is a revolution in engine, because determines the possibility of the engine with a huge reserve of development for traction.

- What structural materials preferred for a new engine?

- No of new materials is impossible to provide the characteristics that we make to the new generation of CCD. The specialists of "Saturn" is a good experience and the impact of new materials developed by the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Aviation Materials (VIAM).

First of all, it is, of course, high-temperature nickel alloys spade. Turbine blade - it is a unique product. It is a complex spatial structure, which must operate at temperatures above 2000 K.

There are also proprietary materials "Saturn." We can offer them for a new generation engine. These materials make it possible to increase the half life of the engine at the same temperatures.

Today much is said about the use of composite materials. The new engine for the PAK FA used composites that are based not only on the polymer matrix to the cold part, and parts by the high-temperature compositions. These works "Saturn" is already long enough.

- Do not forget that all new and modern with the time expires. Is there a possibility of the engine created for modernization?

- Of course. Concurrently with the development work on the engine of the fifth generation we build backlog, which will develop the engine is not only ten, but at 30, maybe 50 years.

Today, the "Saturn" conducted extensive research on the development of fifth-generation engine with the use of a technology called "variable cycle engine." The studies, which suggest that a certain transformation engine thermodynamics through design changes can significantly improve engine performance at subsonic and supersonic flight conditions. One of these transformations can be the use of the third circuit. All this is provided.

- How will affect the installation of new engines for flight characteristics of fifth generation fighter? Feel a difference pilot peresevshy the plane with the engine of the first stage on the plane with the engine of the second stage?

- The new engine is fundamentally different from the previous product of the first stage. Of course, the pilot will immediately feel the difference in traction. The plane with the new engine will be more docile and can quickly react to the pilot. In fact, the engine of the second stage is to give the T-50 aircraft to a new life.

- Yuri, we know that the PAK FA is already being tested. What engines are equipped with the first prototypes?

Now prototype completed the first phase of the motor, which in engineering circles is known as the product 117. In essence, this is the result of a deep family AL-31, which is installed on the aircraft today the Su-27.

Certainly, it's a great engine, which is a best seller and is built on the fundamental principles and basic ideas of the design office Arkhip Cradles. But this is still the engine stage 4 + +.

Source: Генконструктор НПО "Сатурн" Юрий Шмотин: "Двигатель второго этапа подарит самолету пятого поколения новую жизнь" / АвиаПорт.Дайджест

 

[TrueSpirit]

Weak sauce prada. One of your so-called *equal partners* is still quite a bit more-equal than the other. Wow, 2014!? India's prototype should be lookin good on the shop floor by now in that case... haven't heard about it though... or about India actually buying one for that matter. Maybe the Russians just haven't figured out the whole capitalism thing yet.

@lookieloo & @Armand2REP, this is for you. Enjoy:

India and Russia have crossed the first milestone towards the development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), completing the preliminary design of the plane.

"The preliminary design contract (PDC) for the Russian-Indian fifth generation aircraft has been executed," Russia's Sukhoi aircraft company announced on Wednesday.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) signed the $295-million PDC contract in December 2010 with the Sukhoi company, which is responsible in Russia for developing the PAK-FA (perspective aviation complex-frontline aircraft), as the FGFA is called in Russia.

"The aircraft design has been fully developed," Sukhoi said in a press release. "Both parties have agreed upon on the amount and division of work during the research and development (R&D) stage. A contract for the R&D is being prepared. It is to be signed this year."

Under the PDC contract Sukhoi has also trained Indian engineers and provided HAL with the data and software needed to create a single working environment. A team of HAL engineers and IAF experts has been working at Sukhoi's design bureau in Moscow, while Russian engineers have been assigned to HAL.

Four T-50 aircraft, the Russian prototype of the fifth generation fighter, have already performed more than 200 test flights since January 2010.

The customised FGFA version will have "some differences" from the Russian prototype to meet "specific requirements of the Indian Air Force," the Sukhoi announcement said.

Russian experts said the FGFA will differ in "mission hardware and software," as well as weapons. India has dropped its initial plan to redesign the single-seat T-50 into a twin-seat version.

Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne told reporters at Aero India-2013 that India is to receive from Russia the first prototype of the fifth-generation fighter in 2014, followed by two more in 2017 and 2018. The FGFA is expected to go into series production by 2022.

This is India's biggest-ever defence project and its largest defence deal with Russia. It is expected to cost India more than $30 billion. However, last year India scaled down its original plan to acquire 214 planes by one-third, to 144 aircraft, citing time and cost factors. Russia plans to induct 60 planes at an estimated price tag of $100 million per aircraft.

Link

 

[p2prada]

Weak sauce prada. One of your so-called *equal partners* is still quite a bit more-equal than the other.

What's unequal about being equal partners. The point is IPR will be shared 50-50. That makes it equal. Workshare in R&D is 25% for HAL.

Wow, 2014!? India's prototype should be lookin good on the shop floor by now in that case... haven't heard about it though...

Everybody else has heard about it though.

India to get first FGFA prototype 'in 2014'

The Russians are in the process of making multiple prototypes for Sukhoi and VVS for delivery between this year and the next.

or about India actually buying one for that matter.

The article is quoted from our Air Chief. That should be enough proof.

Spicy sauce lookie. :cool2:

 

[ersakthivel]

What we are getting with our IPR right will be called FGFA.

The russians are going to sell their version in export market as T-50 or PAKFA with no IPR strings from us,

other than splurging billions of dollars in this JOINT VENTURE(joining virtually after all the design spec are frozen) , we indians are yet lo lay our hands on any prototype of it.

ADA is the deisgn house for AMCA. It has no involvement in FGFA which is under HAL control.HAL is yet to operationalize a single fighter. It is 100 percent license producer as far as modern fighters are concerned.

SO what expertise local development agencies will get by this FGFA JV is a moot point.

So we funded the R&D , with russians garnering all the experience and selling rights to third countries in the name of PAKFA , since engine is going to be theirs,

So actually sauce is more spicier on the Russian side.

 

[TrueSpirit]

For benefit of "uninitiated" (those with limited or patchy understanding of STEALTH), here we go "back-to-the-basics" :


Roots of Stealth: Development of Radars in World War 2, meant that fighter and bomber aircrafts no longer had the surprise attack edge over enemy forces in their territory, some Western experts have credited Radar and Brilliant Royal Air force for actually saving Britain from falling into hands of Adolf Hitler , Germans and Hitler knew that fall of Britain was been avoided for long due to this two critical factors and Germans actually started work on a aircraft which could had defeated, not so reliable radars of that era by trying to develop a Low Observable world's first Stealth fighter close to end of the world war 2 called has Horten Ho 229 designed by Reimar and Walter Horten and built by Gothaer Waggonfabrik.

It was the first pure flying wing powered by a jet engine, aircraft was developed under Emergency Fighter Program where German commanders were working on many secret weapons systems to develop a "wonder weapon" which might have turned the tide against the enemy and save them from a defeat, Horten Ho 229 did not use any stealth metal but used rather conventional technology and stealth aeronautics to reduce its Radar Cross section , after few flights, aircraft indeed proved that it had reduced RCS and was much better in in avoiding detection , Reimar Horten said he mixed charcoal dust in with the wood glue to absorb electromagnetic waves (radar), which he believed could shield the aircraft from detection by British early warning ground-based radar known as Chain Home , Horten Ho 229 had a smaller radar cross-section than conventional contemporary twin-engine aircraft. This was because of wings blended into the fuselage.

By end of the war America had captured most of the research project of Reimar Horten and was transferred back to Main land , and the aircraft was long forgotten until in year 2008 when Northrop-Grumman Corporation which possessed all the research work on Horten Ho 229 ,decided to build a replica of Horten Ho 229 and test it with then British made radar to check if Horten Ho 229 was indeed predecessor of all stealth fighter , Northrop-Grumman did find that Horten Ho 229 gave a radar cross section only 40% that of other conventional aircraft of world war 2 era .So indeed Hitler almost was close to develop a reduced RCS aircraft of the that time ,could that had a major or turned the tide of the war in favor of Hitler? Well that Experts will debate for years to come, but our History teaches us that "For every new Weapon a counter Weapon is always just across the corner "

Predecessors of Modern Stealth Aircrafts: When we ask, which was the first Stealth Aircraft? Immediately Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk comes to our mind, we don't deny that F-117 was world's first "Real Stealth Aircraft" but we cannot deny that they were many other aircrafts prior to that, which was designed keeping Stealth in mind; this article will highlight those aircrafts.

By 60's less than 15 years after World War-II had ended, it was clear that new Superpowers of the new world, United States of America and U.S.S.R had emerged so was the start of the Cold War between them, Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) America's Prime Secret Agency wanted an aircraft which was able to penetrate Soviet Airspace and carry out reconnaissance, after U-2 spy plane was shoot down over Soviet Union , CIA wanted a plane that was not only Fast and fly way over SAM coverage of Soviet union but also possessed Stealth characters ,this lead to development of A-12 Predecessors of SR-71.

A-12: was Predecessors of SR-71, and was developed using a new metal known has "Titanium" , interestingly Titanium was then supplied by Soviet Union itself ,but they never had even a remote idea that it was used to build a aircraft which was supposed to ultimately spy on them . Around Twelve A-12 were build and operated by CIA and it was used in spy activates over North Vietnam and North Korea but never against Soviet Union which was considered too dangerous.

A-12 had many Stealth features and special attention was provided to reduce RCS of the aircraft, it was rumored that CIA and Lockheed Martin were provided full funding no question asked on funds, Aircraft when under its testing phase was kept in total secrecy and everyone who knew about the project were provided good salary and were told to be tight lipped about it, even a crash of A-12 was covered up by CIA has a crash of F-105. Aircraft was still under powered and budget constant meant A-12 had early retirement, but new aircraft based on A-12 was just around the corner.

SR-71:Lockheed Martin had to take special permission from CIA to reveal details of A-12 to United States Air Force and Lockheed convinced the U.S. Air Force that an aircraft based on the A-12 would provide a less costly alternative to the recently canceled North American Aviation XF-108, SR-71 was not only able to provide USAF a strategic reconnaissance, it's Mach 3 speed made it untouchable among Soviet interceptors aircrafts , and sure it was untouchable, SR-71 sure had its nervous moments almost 4000 attempts were made to shoot it down, but never it was shoot down by Soviets because of its ability to operate over 800000 feet close to the outer space ,way out of reach of many latest Soviet SAM Systems ,SR-71 standard evasive action was simply to accelerate.

SR-71 was longer and heavier than the A-12, with a longer fuselage to hold more fuel, two seats in the cockpit, and reshaped chins. But A-12 which was a single seat aircraft had more room to carry better Spy Camera, it was also first aircraft to feature 15 % composite and rest been Titanium , SR-71 was designed keeping Stealth in mind ,early study had indicated that aircraft with flattened, tapering sides reduced RCS in the aircraft ,special radar-absorbing materials were used to further reduce RCS of the aircraft ,but then Aircraft flying over Mach 3 created enough heat around itself that it was easily detected mostly over Soviet union ,Lockheed agreed that Soviet Radar technology was advancing more faster than Stealth technology ,this was the prime reason why technological changes carried out in SR-71 to achieve stealth was easily defeated due to advancement in Radar technology by soviets .

SR-71 was powered by a Revolutionary Hybrid engine called "J58" at lower speed it showed the characteristics of a turbo fan engine but at high Mach speed it was like a Ram-jet engine, faster it was pushed better it performed, this was the reason why it could out run Soviet SAM systems easily ,soon after its production ended many of the tools required to manufacture the aircraft was destroyed since it was found very risky to keep them in store around 30 aircrafts were built for US air force but lack of spares and high operating cost meant that the aircraft was retired in 1998, Stealth technology used in SR-71 was not totally useless but it was just a start to develop and produce a Stealth aircraft , SR-71 still holds many of the records even after been retired more than a decade ago and the contribution of SR-71 in development of Stealth Technology cannot be neglected ,due to this reason it has a special mention in this article .

First Gen Stealth fighter: CIA in its report to Us Government told that, in a full out war with soviets ever occur in near future whole United States Air force fleet will be wiped out in flat 7 days, due to advancement of Soviets SAM batteries and Radar technology, this rang alarm bells in USAF and Government and it was decided to develop an aircraft which will be able to defeat radars of the soviets union and also provide technological edge to USAF, so began work on Lockheed's secret project known has " Have Blue " which was more like a Proof of concept for developing a Stealthy aircraft ,under this project two Prototypes were developed which were close to 60 % of the size of the F-117 . In its first flight "Have Blue "Prototype flew over Army Radar station without been detected by Radar controllers who were fully aware of such flight by the aircraft. Once the concept was proved, soon began work on the F-117 prototype which had its first flight in 1981 and was under secrecy for over 8 years before been finally reveled to general public about its existence only in 1988, Well again idea and principal to achieve near stealth or full stealth aircraft was again provided by Soviets, a Soviet Mathematician Pyotr Ya. Ufimtsev provided a theory in early 60's, on how Aircrafts RCS could be reduced using his principals, but to prove his theory required advance computers which were not available at that time, so soon his theory and his principals were forgotten, until American Scientist stumbled about his theory while doing research on Stealth technology, advancement in computer technology in mid-70's allowed Americans to work on his theory to achieve Stealth technology.

F-1117 was world first Stealth Strike aircraft, it was designed to deflect radar signals and to keep the project secret and reduce cost most of the technology was incorporated from other fighters like F-16 /F-18 and F-15, well it did send alarm bells all over military corners of the world but reaction was quite cold to it , but after the first Gulf war in 1990's made F-117 much talked about aircraft , Iraq at that time was most heavy defended country in the middle east ,equipped with latest Soviet SAM Batteries most experts expected heavy loss to any evading air force , but F-117 was a game changer , not only it took out more than 30 % of the Strategic targets in first 24 hour raid it also bombarded Iraqi Capital Baghdad which was seen has most fortified city in whole of the region, Iraqi defense force and SAM operators had no idea what hit them ,and were seen firing towards the sky long after F-117 had existed the area , Success of F-117 meant that many Defence forces started working on new better techniques to counter this new weapon and carried out different level of changes to Radars and SAM batteries to detect and engage F-117 in future conflicts .

F-117 was shot down in Kosovo war, using a modified SA-3 Soviet era SAM Battery, it has been told that spotters had spotted low flying F-117, using combination of previous flight path and high radar wave length Yugoslav military's air defense were successful in bringing down the aircraft, Yugoslav forces invited Russian scientist to have a look at near intact F-117 airframe, which might have compromised closely guarded Stealth Technology which United States guarded for more than three decades ,eight years after this incident United states started retiring them , F-117 was a revolution in stealth aircraft technology but it had serious flaws , F-117 due to its shape was not highly Maneuverable aircraft ,not to compromise on stealth meant it could not carry any on board radar nor radar warning indicator ,it was optimized for strike roles only and when intercepted it had no chance of fighting off an enemy interceptor ,limited payload carrying capacity was also a hindrance ,but it marked development of other more improved Stealth aircrafts like B-2 Stealth bomber , F-22 ,F-35 and later catch up done by Russians in Pak-Fa and Recently flown Chinese J-20 .There is no single Stealth technology ,it is lot of factors that lead to Stealth aircrafts , Aeronautical shape ,mixture of less reflective metals to radar waves all this leads to "Stealth ".

 

[TrueSpirit]

other than splurging billions of dollars in this JOINT VENTURE(joining virtually after all the design spec are frozen) , we indians are yet lo lay our hands on any prototype of it.

@ersakthivel: I believe there is some mis-information regarding the design spec's. The preliminary design of FGFA has been recently completed last month, itself. The formal announcement regarding the same was made around 1st week of April. I have shared an article above, to that effect. Anyway, the news is all over the media.

Of course, FGFA is just an offshoot/derivative of PAKFA & we are aware of the fact that PAKFA design was ready much earlier but still FGGA has incorporated several design inputs from IAF, as @p2prada has shared in this thread & I got those facts verified by horse's mouth.

It is 100 percent license producer as far as modern fighters are concerned.

I really doubt that. It is much more than that. Again, @p2prada has tried to quantify the benefits in this thread. However, I have no idea about veracity of these stated benefits.

other than splurging billions of dollars in this JOINT VENTURE(joining virtually after all the design spec are frozen) , we indians are yet lo lay our hands on any prototype of it.

I believe, the prototype delivery is going to happen as scheduled, probably in 2014-2015 time-frame.

The article I have shared goes like:

It has India and Russia have crossed the first milestone towards the development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), completing the preliminary design of the plane."The preliminary design contract (PDC) for the Russian-Indian fifth generation aircraft has been executed," Russia's Sukhoi aircraft company announced on Wednesday..........

 

[TrueSpirit]

Now Australian Air force chief speaks:

PAK FA, J-20 years behind F-35 in development

Lockheed Martin Corp is well on the way to fixing the F-35s performance and helmet problems, Australian military chiefs said on Thursday, rejecting criticism the troubled jet will be overmatched by newer Russian and Chinese aircraft.

In testimony to parliament on the F-35, for which Australia is one of the largest international buyers with plans for up to 100, Australian air force chief Air Marshal Geoff Brown said rivals were years behind the Lightning II's development.

Critics of the F-35 have predicted the aircraft, for which many performance data are classified, will be outflown by emerging aircraft like Russia's Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA and China's J-20, as well as existing fighters like the Su-35, citing computer modelling of known abilities.

"Let me tell you, I don't think that they have the level of stealth that's available in U.S. fifth generation aircraft, and it's by a significant factor," Air Marshal Brown told lawmakers.

"Both PAK FA, J-20 and J-31 are possibly where we were in excess of 10-12 years ago in their development time frames, so all those aeroplanes have still got a long, long way to go," Brown said.

The United States and its allies plan to buy more than 3,100 of the F-35 joint strike fighters in coming decades, although the numbers may change as some countries pare back orders. Australia is one of nine partner countries involved in the aircraft's development.

Australia earlier this month released a new strategic blueprint after the U.S. pivot to the Asia-Pacific, committing to the joint strike fighter and promising to beef up its maritime and air forces as China and India emerge as regional heavyweights.

U.S. Air Force Lieutenant General Christopher Bogdan warned Congress last month that the $396 billion F-35 program, the most expensive ever U.S. arms program, remained at risk of a "death spiral" in which cuts in orders drive up the cost per plane, leading to more cuts..

Some unclassified computer wargaming of the F-35 against major rivals has pointed to the F-35 being defeated, with critics claiming the aircraft is too ungainly and lightly armed to come out on top in a close-quarters dog fight.

Development has also been plagued by problems in the development of complex software to fuse sensor information from on-board and off-board data systems bringing together weapons, radar and electronic warfare capabilities.

Those include glitches with its futuristic helmet, designed by a joint venture of Rockwell Collins Inc and Israel's Elbit Systems to display all the information F-35 pilots need to fly the plane.

Brown said the F-35"²s stealth and integrated sensors gave a "God's eye view of the world", while Australia's F-35 program chief Air Vice-Marshal Kym Osley said helmet issues including sensor light clouding displays, ineffective night vision and image "jitter" were being steadily overcome.

Software programming appeared to be the biggest development risk, lawmakers were told, with costs now projected to fall to around $83 million apiece, with the first two aircraft to cost $130 million each.

Australia expects delivery of its first two F-35 fighters in 2014-15, with the first squadron to be operational in 2020. It has so far contractually committed to buying only 14 F-35s.

Link

 

[TrueSpirit]

@Armand2REP & @p2prada,

Here's a new report regrading HAL's (new) Tooling facility. Please share your conclusions out of it.

Minister of State for Defence, inaugurated the state-of-the-art Manned Chamber Welding (MCW) shop, the only of its kind in the country and second in the world at HAL's Koraput (Sunabeda) facilities in Odisha yesterday in presence of Mr. R.K. Mathur, Secretary Defence Production. "India and Russia are the only two countries having this facility", said Dr. R. K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL.

The minister lauded HAL's efforts. The Indian equipment has been developed indigenously by HAL with help of other vendors. Dr. Tyagi handed over a symbol of robotic argon chamber dedicated to the nation to the Minister.

Robotic tungsten inert gas (TIG) welding system in argon chamber plays an important role in welding of complicated assemblies for aero engine in total argon environment that ensures quality and reliability. The Indian MCW system at HAL is unique as it offers both robotic and human (manual) welding in argon atmosphere while the Russian welding is carried out only manually. In this robotic system, HAL does welding of 17 major modules of Sukhoi engine. The welding is of high quality and free of defects. The entire outer casing module of the engine is welded inside this chamber. The welder working inside has all life support and health monitoring features.

Link

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel: I believe there is some mis-information regarding the design spec's. The preliminary design of FGFA has been recently completed last month, itself. The formal announcement regarding the same was made around 1st week of April. I have shared an article above, to that effect. Anyway, the news is all over the media.

You know what FGFA will be? It is a bare bone engine, radar airframeof PAKFA, as that of the Su-30 MKI TOT model. We are going to integrate mission computers, avionics, weapon stores software which were all developed by DARE in india with various foreign partners like THALES and ELBIT as usual. The misinformation is using the word JV in FGFA. It is going to be exactly on the lines of Su-30 MKi deal.So what kind of IPR rights we are going to get without even designing a screw on FGFA is something unfathomable

Of course, FGFA is just an offshoot/derivative of PAKFA & we are aware of the fact that PAKFA design was ready much earlier but still FGGA has incorporated several design inputs from IAF, as @p2prada has shared in this thread & I got those facts verified by horse's mouth.

MY association with p2p is a long cherished multi faceted deeper than ocean higher than mountain sort of thing.

So I know how much I should believe in the statement that ,"FGFA is a derivative of PAKFA", infact it is nothing but the same as PAKFA airframe with indian avionics.

The ones who are having any design competency to re engineer a FGFA as a derivative of PAKFA is ADA and NAL. HAL has no experience in designing top line fighters like this.At best they will be given training in producing the fighter without any delay and errors.

I really doubt that. It is much more than that. Again, @p2prada has tried to quantify the benefits in this thread. However, I have no idea about veracity of these stated benefits.

There will be no benefits as the russian design chief of FGFA has himself said that indians have more experience in composites thanks to tejas program. If the fuselage is made of composites we already have the tech to make it via Tejas LSP experience. Engines , Who will give the core tech of the 5th gen futuristic engines to india? avionics will be our as always.

I believe, the prototype delivery is going to happen as scheduled, probably in 2014-2015 time-frame.

The article I have shared goes like:

It has India and Russia have crossed the first milestone towards the development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), completing the preliminary design of the plane."The preliminary design contract (PDC) for the Russian-Indian fifth generation aircraft has been executed," Russia's Sukhoi aircraft company announced on Wednesday..........

So it is just a glorified purchase of a fighter which will have far inferior stealth specs to F-22(we don't know what is the case vis a vis J-20 and F-35).PAKFA's compressor blades are exposed to radar. Will it be concealed in FGFA version without using radar blockers of F-18 hornet vintage?
If they do that then I will considr that HAl has done some real design work on FGFA.

The IAF gave the money after being promised a two seater fully stealth version, now it is not going to happen , So IAF just cancelled the 66 two seater version orders and pared down the order to just 150 odd.

If at all FGFA has met all the IAf's requirement IAf would have converted the two seater version order to single seater version.I do wish the FGFA being much better refined stealth shaping than the PAKFA. But there are no encouraging signs of it going to happen any soon.

In effect we have invested billions of dollars a decade in advance without even knowing what will be it's RCS.

AMCa will be our real 5th gen design experience gathering program. FGFA will be a glorified TOT production thats all.

But nothing insignificant about the FGFA. It will carry the superlative ability of Su-30 line, with a kickass engine.
, and will be far superior to any thing J-20 or J-30 thrown by chinese at us.We are not going to fight the USAF F-22 with our FGFA. So no worries.


And if a capable ASEA along with longer range BVRs specially developed for it is available , then it will be good enough or the IAF for the next twenty years. No one doubts the capability of the FGFA fighter.

But Will it develop home grown 5th gen design capability? Certainly no a big no.

 

[TrueSpirit]

AMCa will be our real 5th gen design experience gathering program.

AFAIK, in the quest for LCA's FOC & LCA-MK II 's IOC, ADA has already gone slow on AMCA.

 

[ersakthivel]

AFAIK, in the quest for LCA's FOC & LCA-MK II 's IOC, ADA has already gone slow on AMCA.

That is a boogie woogie report with full of technical errors , quoting UNNAMED MOD OFFICAILs. If no one wants to associate his name with the report then it means no one in authority is willing to soil his reputation for the fancies of the reporter. AMCA is only in design phase under a separate team.

Mk-2 is a minor modification of MK-1 and it has been going on since 2007 itself. It is the co-ordination between HAl and ADA to validate the minor design changes into production that is delaying things as per reports quoting the NAMES of Senior officials.

 

[Armand2REP]

Incorrect.

Wrong, GTRE makes directionally solidified blades for Kaveri. Not SCB...

Shaping the alloys into engine parts is an equal challenge. GTRE has learned how to make "directionally solidified" turbine blades; but it has not mastered the making of "single-crystal blades", which are now standard.

Broadsword: Defence ministry goes global in search for Kaveri partner

The last I heard, tools are used to make an aircraft. If Russian tooling kits are so funny that a MKI comes out of it, I would like it if the Russians tickled our funny bones everyday.[/QUOTE]

It is pretty funny when Russian MIC has to buy 25yr old fab machines from China.

Fallacious nonsense. With the Russians we are talking more in the range of IPR let alone ToT.

It is IAF which turned down the need for a two seater due to the additional cost of $2 Billion and 15% decrease in stealth.

Really? I heard it was because it wasn't a priority for Russia to develop so they told India no.

Russia has not said no to anything. They are more than willing if the R&D budget goes up due to IAF demands. Russia is willing to co-develop the radar as well, compared to the earlier stance of merely developing the radar on their own. They must have identified that HAL is capable of providing inputs to the radar.

Really, I don't see any Indian scientists working at NIIP. The leg work on the radar is already done.

Agreed. DRDO needs a decent change. However DRDO has nothing to do with FGFA. Why is it so hard for people to differentiate between HAL and DRDO? It is HAL which has the FGFA partnership, not DRDO. DRDO is more into LCA and AMCA. ADA is the design house that is under DRDO. Just for facts, NAL is another design house that makes passenger aircraft, possibly the company that may make our first bomber in 50 years. So let's not get confused so easily, people.

DRDO is the research arm of Indian MIC. If India is going to learn anything from FGFA, it must go through them. HAL can't develop a toilet dispenser.

Rafale deal cannot even be compared to FGFA. FGFA involves full scale development work, Rafale is simply a pay and use system like MKI. FGFA includes equal partnership, decent development work, full flight testing cycle and 50-50 IPR. India gets much more work than UK got for the F-35 program. Add 100% manufacturing to boot and we have a winner.

FGFA really doesn't involve full scale development work. The aircraft is already 75% developed. Russia wants India to pay $5 billion so it can upgrade its research centres and pay for flight testing to finish development. Whatever India gets is just a trinket for the price.

Rafale tech is what can be considered obsolete compared to what's planned for FGFA.

Really? The fabrication and avionics of Rafale are what Russia only hopes they can develop with FGFA. Unfortunately their industrial capacity to develop such advances is still based on Soviet era infrastructure and an R&D budget that is so low it requires India to pick up the tab.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Mk-2 is a minor modification of MK-1 and it has been going on since 2007 itself. It is the co-ordination between HAl and ADA to validate the minor design changes into production that is delaying things as per reports quoting the NAMES of Senior officials.

Well, MK-2 was originally based on Indian Navy's ASR. IAF liked it, decided to opt for it & shifted the goalpost for ADA. Or else, LCA's IOC-2 would have been done till now & we could have been approaching FOC for LCA.

 

[ersakthivel]

AFAIK, in the quest for LCA's FOC & LCA-MK II 's IOC, ADA has already gone slow on AMCA.

That is a boogie woogie report with full of technical errors , quoting UNNAMED MOD OFFICAILs. If no one wants to associate his name with the report then it means no one in authority is willing to soil his reputation for the fancies of the reporter. AMCA is only in design phase under a separate team.

Mk-2 is a minor modification of MK-1 and it has been going on since 2007 itself. It is the co-ordination between HAl and ADA to validate the minor design changes into production that is delaying things on MK-1 and MK-2 as per reports authentic reports quoting the NAMES of Senior officials.

So delaying AMCA is in noway going to help it.Since there will be no visible design work till the AMCA finished the PD phase and reaches the start of FSED phase with metal cut any one can claim that AMCA has stopped or speeded up. No source for verifying that.

 

[TrueSpirit]

FGFA will be a glorified TOT production thats all.

Here's a Sukhoi press release, offers some additional perspective regarding the work to be done in India:

An excerpt: In the course of the first stage of the project the Russian side has trained Indian professionals, provided them with the original data and the software to create a single working environment. The Indian working group of experts has been working in Russia since January 2012 and a group of Russian specialists — in India. Both parties exchange the necessary information. The PMI/FGFA fighter developed by the parties will have some differences from the Russian prototype due to specific requirements of the Indian Air Force.

Link

 

[santosh_g]

newbiee question: Will HAL be able to build how many ever FGFA's we want in india with out paying extra money to russia?? yes, assume we have developed a proper engine by that time

But one thing is for sure.. we invetsed almost same amount of money what russians invested... now the real meaning joint development stands right only if they provide us with complete TOT including engine tech and Radar. They should allow us to build these things any in number unconditionally.. is it possible??

 

[TrueSpirit]

newbiee question: Will HAL be able to build how many ever FGFA's we want in india with out paying extra money to russia?? yes, assume we have developed a proper engine by that time

But one thing is for sure.. we invetsed almost same amount of money what russians invested... now the real meaning joint development stands right only if they provide us with complete TOT including engine tech and Radar. They should allow us to build these things any in number unconditionally.. is it possible??

Question directed to @p2prada & @ersakthivel.....

 

[ersakthivel]

Here's a Sukhoi press release, offers some additional perspective regarding the work to be done in India:

An excerpt: In the course of the first stage of the project the Russian side has trained Indian professionals, provided them with the original data and the software to create a single working environment. The Indian working group of experts has been working in Russia since January 2012 and a group of Russian specialists — in India. Both parties exchange the necessary information. The PMI/FGFA fighter developed by the parties will have some differences from the Russian prototype due to specific requirements of the Indian Air Force.

Link

we joined after the entire design is finalized, now having our engineering team there with common design software won't make much of a difference as prototypes are already flying. So minor modifications according to indian climatic conditions an few specific needs of IAF can't be said as gaining design experience from scratch.

If the design modifications are major like making F-16 XL out of plain F-16 then it will be worth it. But if you see the HAL FGFA model presented , you will know it is exactly the same piece as PAKFA.

Lets set aside IPR rights. As an equal partner will India get 50 percent share of profits from PAKFA exports?
Will HAL be given order for 50 percent of the parts for the Russian PAKFA exports?

Whether we gain any design experience from it is true or not, if the answer for the above two questions is yes , then can be called a JV to some extent.Otherwise it is a TOT license production agreement on a scale somewhat higher than the SU-30MKI co operation model.

 

[ersakthivel]

newbiee question: Will HAL be able to build how many ever FGFA's we want in india with out paying extra money to russia?? yes, assume we have developed a proper engine by that time

If it is a true JV we should, SInce we cannot impose any restriction on russian PAKFA numbers , they should not restrict our numbers as we are equal JV partners.

But one thing is for sure.. we invetsed almost same amount of money what russians invested... now the real meaning joint development stands right only if they provide us with complete TOT including engine tech and Radar. They should allow us to build these things any in number unconditionally.. is it possible??

No one in th world will transfer 5th gen engine tech and ASEA radar tech along with complete 5th gen airframe for 3 billions!!!!
No one wil export their core single crystal blade tech to the other guy,At best russians will offer the tech for all other non core parts of their FGFA engine for local production here and supply the hot core with SCB and other vital parts from Russia as it is happeneing with AL-31.

Many people say that Russians have transfered the SCB tech to Koraput engine facility for AL_31. But GTRE director still says the country doesnot have SCB tech.If the tech is given by Russians I see no problem for us begging SNECMA for 63 years for the same tech to transform K-9 to K-10. We could have done it our sekf , if we had the SCB tech.

 

[ersakthivel]

newbiee question: Will HAL be able to build how many ever FGFA's we want in india with out paying extra money to russia?? yes, assume we have developed a proper engine by that time

If it is a true JV we should, SInce we cannot impose any restriction on russian PAKFA numbers , they should not restrict our numbers as we are equal JV partners.

But one thing is for sure.. we invetsed almost same amount of money what russians invested... now the real meaning joint development stands right only if they provide us with complete TOT including engine tech and Radar. They should allow us to build these things any in number unconditionally.. is it possible??

No one in th world will transfer 5th gen engine tech and ASEA radar tech along with complete 5th gen airframe for 3 billions!!!!
No one wil export their core single crystal blade tech to the other guy,At best russians will offer the tech for all other non core parts of their FGFA engine for local production here and supply the hot core with SCB and other vital parts from Russia as it is happeneing with AL-31.

Many people say that Russians have transfered the SCB tech to Koraput engine facility for AL_31. But GTRE director still says the country doesnot have SCB tech.If the tech is given by Russians I see no problem for us begging SNECMA for 63 years for the same tech to transform K-9 to K-10. We could have done it our self , if we had the SCB tech.

The GTRE-Snecma negotiations dragged on till the RAFALE was selected as MMRCA fighter and after that it fell through. many people in the wrote at that time that there was a linkage between the k-10 deal, mirage -2000 upgrade deal and RAFALE deal , but it was found out later, that there was none