PAK FA preliminary Stealth Assesment - Ausairpower

average american

New Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,540
Likes
441
From strategic nuclear bomber to “bomb truck” « Quotulatiousness
November 14, 2012


From strategic nuclear bomber to "bomb truck"

Filed under: Military, Technology, USA — Tags: 1960s, B-52 — Nicholas @ 09:08


The B-52 is still in service with the US Air Force and still finding roles to play:


The U.S. Air Force is continuing to upgrade its fifty year old B-52s. The latest upgrade will enable each B-52 to carry over 110 of the 130 kg (285 pound) Small Diameter Bombs (SDB, also known as the GBU-39/B). Six years ago the rotary bomb rack inside the B-52 was modified to carry 32 SDBs instead of 15 larger bombs.

The SDB was designed from the bottom up as a smart bomb. The SDB has a more effective warhead design and guidance system. Its shape is more like that of a missile than a bomb (nearly two meters, as in 70 inches, long, and 190mm in diameter), with the guidance system built in. The smaller blast from the SDB resulted in fewer civilian casualties. Friendly troops can be closer to the target when an SDB explodes. While the 500, 1,000 and 2,000 pound bombs have a spectacular effect when they go off, they are often overkill. The troops on the ground would rather have more, and smaller, GPS bombs available. This caused the 500 pound JDAM to get developed quickly and put into service. But it wasn't small enough for many urban combat situations. The SDB carries only 17 kg (38 pounds) of explosives, compared to 127 kg (280 pounds) in the 500 pound bomb. The SDB is basically an unpowered missile, which can glide long distances. This makes the SDB even more compact. The small wings allow the SDB to glide up to 70-80 kilometers (from high altitude.) SDB also has a hard front end that can punch through nearly three meters (eight feet) of rock or concrete, and a warhead that does less damage than the usual dumb bomb (explosives in a metal casing.) The SDB is thus the next generation of smart bombs. The more compact design of the SDB allows more to be carried. Thus F-15/16/18 type aircraft can carry 24 or more SDBs. The SDBs are carried on a special carriage, which holds four of them. The carriage is mounted on a bomber just like a single larger (500, 1,000 or 2,000) pound bomb would be. However, this feature was rarely needed in combat situations.

This makes the B-52 even more effective as the cheapest to operate and most reliable "bomb truck" the air force has. With a max takeoff weight of 240-250 tons the BUFF (Big Ugly Fat Fellow) is basically a large aircraft designed to carry bombs cheaply and efficiently. Last year the readiness rate of these bombers was 78 percent. Although a half century old, most of the internal fear has been replaced with modern electronics and furnishings. It's all flat screens and modern gear. Look closer and you see fifty year old metal.
 
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
134
Likes
34
I really doubt the F-22 s capabilities when pitted against the SU-30 MKI...as shown in the "Future Dogfights" show...I mean ya its good to imagine things..but isn't it going a bit over board??
 

average american

New Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,540
Likes
441
I really doubt the F-22 s capabilities when pitted against the SU-30 MKI...as shown in the "Future Dogfights" show...I mean ya its good to imagine things..but isn't it going a bit over board??
4TH generation planes like the SU 30 MKI against 5th generation planes like the F22 and F35 will be nothing short of suicide. Ever since World War II he who sees first and shoots first wins 85 plus percent of the time.
 

average american

New Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,540
Likes
441
Deedle, Deedle, Deedle, BANG!
The Paradigm Shift in Air Superiority


Carlo Kopp
First published in Australian Aviation
December 1999






The air superiority game is one which has a lengthy and colourful history, with many successive generations of airframes, weapons and tactics. What is characteristic of paradigm shifts in air superiority is that they are invariably driven by one or another technological advance, which providing a decisive capability advantage in some area, produces corresponding adaptations in other areas.

When the only air to air weapon was the gun, development focussed on better guns, and better airframes and propulsion to bring the gun to bear on its target. This pattern was well established by the end of the Great War, but by the fifties, a new weapon emerged, which would change the game forever. It was the guided missile.

The guided missile was predicted to render fighters obsolete by the early sixties. This is now proven rubbish, and proponents of this idea, such as Duncan Sandys in the UK, well and truly are in immersed in egg.

What the guided missile did achieve is the rapid and continuous evolution of airframes, propulsion, sensors and tactics to match the evolution of missile performance.

The all weather radar guided Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile is now a mainstay of both air defence and air superiority combat operations. It spawned large and heavy fighters with powerful air intercept radars, and together with the Surface-Air Missile (SAM) provided the impetus for the development of stealth.

The clear sky heatseeking Within Visual Range (WVR) missile has always been primarily an air superiority weapon, used by fighters to kill opposing fighters. It has driven fighter development toward ever increasing agility, to provide the earliest opportunity to shoot the opposing aircraft, over an increasingly wide performance envelope.

Until a few years ago, WVR missiles were good, but could be defeated by aggressive manoeuvre if not launched under optimal conditions, they could also be successfully decoyed or jammed, and required excellent instantaneous manoeuvre performance to get an early firing opportunity. With the deployment of 4th generation missiles such as the Archer, Python, ASRAAM and AIM-9X, this is no longer true. All of these missiles can be cued using helmet mounted sights, all have huge "no escape" zones, indeed some can engage a pursuing target, all are difficult to jam, and all have significantly greater range than earlier WVR weapons, in some instances challenging the performance of older radar guided BVR missiles.

Radar guided BVR missiles have also evolved dramatically, and now are becoming extremely difficult to defeat by manoeuvre or jamming. Moreover we are beginning to see the first air-air anti-radiation seekers, which will home on an opposing fighter's air intercept radar, and we are also seeing air breathing BVR weapon proposals. An air breathing BVR missile will have double or triple the range of a pure rocket missile of similar size, as it need not carry the oxidising agent in its propellant, it sucks it in as it flies.

What we can expect to see in the coming two decades is the deployment of WVR missiles with further improved speed, agility, range, jamproof seekers and supporting sensors such as radar homing receivers, infra-red search and track (IRS&T) equipment, and helmet mounted sights which may include helmet mounted thermal imagers. Such missiles will be extremely lethal and virtually impossible to defeat, unless you swat them out of the sky with a laser beam (the USAF are working on this, too). The BVR missile of the next two decades will also be faster, much longer ranging, more autonomous, and harder to jam or outmanoeuvre.

We can also expect to see the first generation of hybrid seekers, combining anti-radiation and or radar homing with heatseeking guidance. Such missile seekers are virtually impossible to jam as they will continuously compare the quality of sensor outputs, and select that which is providing the best quality signal. If one is jammed, it switches to the other, and vice-versa, frustrating virtually any conventional jamming strategy.

With high speed, low smoke motors, low frontal radar signatures, and passive or low-probability of intercept seeker techniques, an inbound missile will be hard to detect with sensors or by eyeball, and the victim will have little if any warning of impending impact.

It is fair to say that we live in the decade during which the air-air missile has finally matured, and is close to reaching its full potential as an air superiority weapon. It is by no means the end of the game plan in air to air weapons. The USAF New World Vistas technology survey published last year indicates that another weapon is reaching the level of development where it can move to deployment in the next two decades. This weapon is the high power laser cannon, capable of burning a hole through an aircraft's skin at several miles of range, under visual clear sky conditions.


Whilst the first operational laser weapon to deploy (cca 2005) will be the USAF's YAL-1A anti-ballistic missile weapon, mounted in a nose turret in a dedicated B-747 airframe, a large weapon with perhaps 300 km or greater range, it is the forerunner of a whole new family of air combat weapons. It is only a matter of time before the technology is well understood, compacted in size, and made robust enough for wider deployment. Laser beams travel at the speed of light, and cannot be dodged or evaded.

In the face of a mature missile threat, and the possibility of early directed energy weapons cca 2025, conventional air superiority models begin to break down. Once the opponent has acquired you, he can shoot you and most likely, kill you. Exchange rates then become a function either of superior sensors and missiles, used at standoff ranges, introducing a whole can of worms to do with Rules of Engagement, or other measures must be sought to improve survivability. Clearly throwing expensive fighter assets into a Somme style attrition warfare meat grinder is not going to win an air war, unless you have twice as many expendable aeroplanes and pilots as your opponent has. With the slow production rates typical of modern high tech weapons and expensive and time consuming training of scarce aircrew (what fraction of any population has the talent to even get through the training required to become a fast jet pilot ?), this is a losers' strategy.

The technology however does exist to deal with this problem, and has existed for almost two decades. It is stealth.

Stealth means suppressing the radar cross section and infrared signatures of an aircraft to the point where it cannot be detected until it is several miles away, or even closer if we factor in lower performance in air intercept radars and missile seekers, compared to large ground based equipment. As a result, a stealthy aircraft can approach to weapons launch range without its opponent knowing it is there, launch its weapons and then vanish again.

No matter how good a conventional fighter is, and how good its missiles and sensors are, an engagement flown against a stealthy fighter aircraft is a no win proposition. The whole engagement can be summarised as "Deedle, deedle, deedle, BANG !". Your warning receiver blares away, you crank your head around to figure out what is happening, and you die as the inbound missile blows you to little pieces. It is indeed as simple as that. Situational awareness is everything in the first-shot-is-the-killing-shot game, and stealth takes away that situational awareness completely.

This is indeed why the F-22 Raptor is a revolutionary rather than evolutionary fighter. Certainly its basic high manoeuvrability aerodynamic design is evolutionary, its supercruise is also arguably evolutionary, but its use of stealth is clearly revolutionary. The combination of superior energy manoeuvrability, supersonic cruise and stealth is an unbeatable combination. Stealth denies the opponent awareness of the F-22, while the aircraft's superlative thrust-to-weight ratio and high speed allow it position itself and close for a kill before its victim can react.

Given the tremendous tactical advantage that follows from this, the F-22 can only be defeated by another, better F-22-ski. Since the Russians are up to two decades behind in stealth materials and shaping techniques, and do not have the money to catch up in a hurry, it is unlikely that we will see a viable competitor to the F-22 for several decades to come. Therefore the F-22 is as close to unbeatable as one can get, in the next few decades.

The curious thing about the F-22 debate is that it has wholly been focussed upon the aircraft costing cca 35% more than an F-15E. Political critics of the aircraft in this author's view sound more like characters from "Alice in Wonderland" ! Indeed, there would be a simple resolution to this problem. Critics should strap into an F-15 air combat simulator and fly against another pilot in a simulated F-22. After they have "died" in ten or twenty consecutive engagements, then they should reconsider their position. Deedle, deedle, deedle, BANG !
If we consider what the F-22 provides against every other contemporary air superiority fighter, and any evolved variants thereof, it is quite clear that the F-22 is virtually unbeatable in the next three decades. If we also consider that the F-22 builds upon the USAF's unassailable lead in stealth technology, it is clearly a superb long term investment for any air force which fields it. The pioneering efforts of Ben Rich's (Lockheed) and John Cashen's (Northrop) development groups during the late seventies and early eighties have already yielded some outstanding dividends in the F-117A and B-2A. These groups then produced the YF-22 and YF-23. The USAF's production F-22 extends the tremendous potential of stealth into the air superiority game, with the result that the F-22 is without doubt the most lethal fighter aircraft ever planned to enter production.

The issue for the ADF to consider here is whether to make a large long term investment into established fighter technology, which has reached the end of its technological potential, or to invest in the technology which will follow it. Committing to established fighter technology is committing to a paradigm nearing the end of its life. Committing to stealth is gaining entry into the new model of air warfare.

It is, in summary, a simple question: should we as a nation spend our precious defence dollars on the technology of the past, or the technology of the future ?
Deedle, Deedle, Deedle, BANG! The Paradigm Shift in Air Superiority
 
Last edited:

average american

New Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,540
Likes
441
Nothing is going to chance the fact that no matter how good a conventional fighter is, and how good its missiles and sensors are, an engagement flown against a stealthy fighter aircraft is a no win proposition. The whole engagement can be summarised as "Deedle, deedle, deedle, BANG !". Your warning receiver blares away, you crank your head around to figure out what is happening, and you die as the inbound missile blows you to little pieces. It is indeed as simple as that. Situational awareness is everything in the first-shot-is-the-killing-shot game, and stealth takes away that situational awareness completely.

This is indeed why the F-22 Raptor is a revolutionary rather than evolutionary fighter. Certainly its basic high manoeuvrability aerodynamic design is evolutionary, its supercruise is also arguably evolutionary, but its use of stealth is clearly revolutionary. The combination of superior energy manoeuvrability, supersonic cruise and stealth is an unbeatable combination. Stealth denies the opponent awareness of the F-22, while the aircraft's superlative thrust-to-weight ratio and high speed allow it position itself and close for a kill before its victim can react.

Given the tremendous tactical advantage that follows from this, the F-22 can only be defeated by another, better F-22-ski. Since the Russians are up to two decades behind in stealth materials and shaping techniques, and do not have the money to catch up in a hurry, it is unlikely that we will see a viable competitor to the F-22 for several decades to come. Therefore the F-22 is as close to unbeatable as one can get, in the next few decades.
 

TrueSpirit

New Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
1,893
Likes
841
Deedle, Deedle, Deedle, BANG!
The Paradigm Shift in Air Superiority


Carlo Kopp
First published in Australian Aviation
December 1999






The air superiority game is one which has a lengthy and colourful history, with many successive generations of airframes, weapons and tactics. What is characteristic of paradigm shifts in air superiority is that they are invariably driven by one or another technological advance, which providing a decisive capability advantage in some area, produces corresponding adaptations in other areas.

When the only air to air weapon was the gun, development focussed on better guns, and better airframes and propulsion to bring the gun to bear on its target. This pattern was well established by the end of the Great War, but by the fifties, a new weapon emerged, which would change the game forever. It was the guided missile.

The guided missile was predicted to render fighters obsolete by the early sixties. This is now proven rubbish, and proponents of this idea, such as Duncan Sandys in the UK, well and truly are in immersed in egg.

What the guided missile did achieve is the rapid and continuous evolution of airframes, propulsion, sensors and tactics to match the evolution of missile performance.

The all weather radar guided Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile is now a mainstay of both air defence and air superiority combat operations. It spawned large and heavy fighters with powerful air intercept radars, and together with the Surface-Air Missile (SAM) provided the impetus for the development of stealth.

The clear sky heatseeking Within Visual Range (WVR) missile has always been primarily an air superiority weapon, used by fighters to kill opposing fighters. It has driven fighter development toward ever increasing agility, to provide the earliest opportunity to shoot the opposing aircraft, over an increasingly wide performance envelope.

Until a few years ago, WVR missiles were good, but could be defeated by aggressive manoeuvre if not launched under optimal conditions, they could also be successfully decoyed or jammed, and required excellent instantaneous manoeuvre performance to get an early firing opportunity. With the deployment of 4th generation missiles such as the Archer, Python, ASRAAM and AIM-9X, this is no longer true. All of these missiles can be cued using helmet mounted sights, all have huge "no escape" zones, indeed some can engage a pursuing target, all are difficult to jam, and all have significantly greater range than earlier WVR weapons, in some instances challenging the performance of older radar guided BVR missiles.

Radar guided BVR missiles have also evolved dramatically, and now are becoming extremely difficult to defeat by manoeuvre or jamming. Moreover we are beginning to see the first air-air anti-radiation seekers, which will home on an opposing fighter's air intercept radar, and we are also seeing air breathing BVR weapon proposals. An air breathing BVR missile will have double or triple the range of a pure rocket missile of similar size, as it need not carry the oxidising agent in its propellant, it sucks it in as it flies.

What we can expect to see in the coming two decades is the deployment of WVR missiles with further improved speed, agility, range, jamproof seekers and supporting sensors such as radar homing receivers, infra-red search and track (IRS&T) equipment, and helmet mounted sights which may include helmet mounted thermal imagers. Such missiles will be extremely lethal and virtually impossible to defeat, unless you swat them out of the sky with a laser beam (the USAF are working on this, too). The BVR missile of the next two decades will also be faster, much longer ranging, more autonomous, and harder to jam or outmanoeuvre.

We can also expect to see the first generation of hybrid seekers, combining anti-radiation and or radar homing with heatseeking guidance. Such missile seekers are virtually impossible to jam as they will continuously compare the quality of sensor outputs, and select that which is providing the best quality signal. If one is jammed, it switches to the other, and vice-versa, frustrating virtually any conventional jamming strategy.

With high speed, low smoke motors, low frontal radar signatures, and passive or low-probability of intercept seeker techniques, an inbound missile will be hard to detect with sensors or by eyeball, and the victim will have little if any warning of impending impact.

It is fair to say that we live in the decade during which the air-air missile has finally matured, and is close to reaching its full potential as an air superiority weapon. It is by no means the end of the game plan in air to air weapons. The USAF New World Vistas technology survey published last year indicates that another weapon is reaching the level of development where it can move to deployment in the next two decades. This weapon is the high power laser cannon, capable of burning a hole through an aircraft's skin at several miles of range, under visual clear sky conditions.


Whilst the first operational laser weapon to deploy (cca 2005) will be the USAF's YAL-1A anti-ballistic missile weapon, mounted in a nose turret in a dedicated B-747 airframe, a large weapon with perhaps 300 km or greater range, it is the forerunner of a whole new family of air combat weapons. It is only a matter of time before the technology is well understood, compacted in size, and made robust enough for wider deployment. Laser beams travel at the speed of light, and cannot be dodged or evaded.

In the face of a mature missile threat, and the possibility of early directed energy weapons cca 2025, conventional air superiority models begin to break down. Once the opponent has acquired you, he can shoot you and most likely, kill you. Exchange rates then become a function either of superior sensors and missiles, used at standoff ranges, introducing a whole can of worms to do with Rules of Engagement, or other measures must be sought to improve survivability. Clearly throwing expensive fighter assets into a Somme style attrition warfare meat grinder is not going to win an air war, unless you have twice as many expendable aeroplanes and pilots as your opponent has. With the slow production rates typical of modern high tech weapons and expensive and time consuming training of scarce aircrew (what fraction of any population has the talent to even get through the training required to become a fast jet pilot ?), this is a losers' strategy.

The technology however does exist to deal with this problem, and has existed for almost two decades. It is stealth.

Stealth means suppressing the radar cross section and infrared signatures of an aircraft to the point where it cannot be detected until it is several miles away, or even closer if we factor in lower performance in air intercept radars and missile seekers, compared to large ground based equipment. As a result, a stealthy aircraft can approach to weapons launch range without its opponent knowing it is there, launch its weapons and then vanish again.

No matter how good a conventional fighter is, and how good its missiles and sensors are, an engagement flown against a stealthy fighter aircraft is a no win proposition. The whole engagement can be summarised as "Deedle, deedle, deedle, BANG !". Your warning receiver blares away, you crank your head around to figure out what is happening, and you die as the inbound missile blows you to little pieces. It is indeed as simple as that. Situational awareness is everything in the first-shot-is-the-killing-shot game, and stealth takes away that situational awareness completely.

This is indeed why the F-22 Raptor is a revolutionary rather than evolutionary fighter. Certainly its basic high manoeuvrability aerodynamic design is evolutionary, its supercruise is also arguably evolutionary, but its use of stealth is clearly revolutionary. The combination of superior energy manoeuvrability, supersonic cruise and stealth is an unbeatable combination. Stealth denies the opponent awareness of the F-22, while the aircraft's superlative thrust-to-weight ratio and high speed allow it position itself and close for a kill before its victim can react.

Given the tremendous tactical advantage that follows from this, the F-22 can only be defeated by another, better F-22-ski. Since the Russians are up to two decades behind in stealth materials and shaping techniques, and do not have the money to catch up in a hurry, it is unlikely that we will see a viable competitor to the F-22 for several decades to come. Therefore the F-22 is as close to unbeatable as one can get, in the next few decades.

The curious thing about the F-22 debate is that it has wholly been focussed upon the aircraft costing cca 35% more than an F-15E. Political critics of the aircraft in this author's view sound more like characters from "Alice in Wonderland" ! Indeed, there would be a simple resolution to this problem. Critics should strap into an F-15 air combat simulator and fly against another pilot in a simulated F-22. After they have "died" in ten or twenty consecutive engagements, then they should reconsider their position. Deedle, deedle, deedle, BANG !
If we consider what the F-22 provides against every other contemporary air superiority fighter, and any evolved variants thereof, it is quite clear that the F-22 is virtually unbeatable in the next three decades. If we also consider that the F-22 builds upon the USAF's unassailable lead in stealth technology, it is clearly a superb long term investment for any air force which fields it. The pioneering efforts of Ben Rich's (Lockheed) and John Cashen's (Northrop) development groups during the late seventies and early eighties have already yielded some outstanding dividends in the F-117A and B-2A. These groups then produced the YF-22 and YF-23. The USAF's production F-22 extends the tremendous potential of stealth into the air superiority game, with the result that the F-22 is without doubt the most lethal fighter aircraft ever planned to enter production.

The issue for the ADF to consider here is whether to make a large long term investment into established fighter technology, which has reached the end of its technological potential, or to invest in the technology which will follow it. Committing to established fighter technology is committing to a paradigm nearing the end of its life. Committing to stealth is gaining entry into the new model of air warfare.

It is, in summary, a simple question: should we as a nation spend our precious defence dollars on the technology of the past, or the technology of the future ?
Deedle, Deedle, Deedle, BANG! The Paradigm Shift in Air Superiority[/url]
@Decklander, @p2prada, @ersakthivel, @Rahul Singh, @Kunal Biswas, @Armand2REP, @Ray Sir

In light of the above article, would the experts like to comment/share something ?

I have few of my own queries: Is PAKFA's stealth really 20 years behind Raptor? If not, how much is the gap (if quantifiable ) & are there any workarounds in sight to bridge the capability gap?

Is WVR warfare & era of dogfight passe, even in Asian geography ? How prepared is IAF for that ( in terms of training, equipment, skill & vision), especially w.r.t. PLAAF & PAF ?

Does Rafale or FGFA stand a chance against J-20 (hypothetical scenario) ? If so, how exactly would a typical combat between the 2 aircraft would look like?

Is the following statement 100% true under all circumstances : No matter how good a conventional fighter is, and how good its missiles and sensors are, an engagement flown against a stealthy fighter aircraft is a no win proposition ?

Would Su-30MKI becomes completely vulnerable in skies dominated by SU-35 + J-20 ? Would they be rendered useless for Air-superiority missions?
What would be Indian strategy to dominate & defend its airspace in such cases ?

How relevant is Rafale as a Air-superiority fighter, especially in formations with SU-30MKI ?

If stealth is really such an incredible game change & Russia is nowhere to be seen in the stealth game (&, if their stealth tech. are really limited to RAM coating & some nozzle shaping/internal weapons-bays), wonder what tech. absorption we might gain from investing billions in FGFA....&

& finally, how do think AMCA would shape up in absence of any relevant technical inputs from anywhere (stealth related) ?
Defence R&D in India has not produced results (especially aviation-related IP). Funding is not going to see much improvement in future, as well.

Answers to these queries might interest other many others on DFI...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
New Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,041
Actually its the raptor stealth behind PAK-FA, PAK-FA is newer fighter and not a old fighter upgraded like F-22..

F-22 today is a operational fighter with upgrades, PAK-FA is in prototypes and final version would be combine of all prototypes..
 
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
134
Likes
34
4TH generation planes like the SU 30 MKI against 5th generation planes like the F22 and F35 will be nothing short of suicide. Ever since World War II he who sees first and shoots first wins 85 plus percent of the time.
Sir..This is not World War II...and yes...it is 'see first shoot first' tactic that works till date, but now the factor is how you shoot...the program.here doesn't consider the super-agility of the Su-30MKI...in it the F-22 fires the same AMRAAM or the AIM-120, which Su-30MKI is designed to beat....I really doubt the hit probability..here you can paint the aircraft...but it will be really difficult to beat it...unless there is a gun to gun dogfight...which again brings the two aircrafts on the same platform..
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
New Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
Actually its the raptor stealth behind PAK-FA, PAK-FA is newer fighter and not a old fighter upgraded like F-22..
Kunal sir, April Fools was two months ago. Just because PAK FA is new doesn't mean it matches the F-22. Russians took alot of RCS shortcuts in its design making it slightly less stealthy than a clean Rafale. The thermal signature is even worse.

F-22 today is a operational fighter with upgrades, PAK-FA is in prototypes and final version would be combine of all prototypes..
The PAK FA you see today is the production model, at least until a new set of engines are developed.
 

average american

New Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,540
Likes
441
Sir..This is not World War II...and yes...it is 'see first shoot first' tactic that works till date, but now the factor is how you shoot...the program.here doesn't consider the super-agility of the Su-30MKI...in it the F-22 fires the same AMRAAM or the AIM-120, which Su-30MKI is designed to beat....I really doubt the hit probability..here you can paint the aircraft...but it will be really difficult to beat it...unless there is a gun to gun dogfight...which again brings the two aircrafts on the same platform..
Its World War II as far as Russians are concerned, designing planes to meet past needs rather then for the future, Manuverbility is just a turd the Russians keep polishing because they dont have anything else.

Moores law has made the tactic of evading missiles a thing of the past. Moore's law is the observation that, over the history of computing hardware, the number of transistors on integrated circuits doubles approximately every two years. The period often quoted as "18 months" is due to Intel executive David House, who predicted that period for a doubling in chip performance (being a combination of the effect of more transistors and their being faster).

Kopp

Once the opponent has acquired you, he can shoot you and most likely, kill you. Exchange rates then become a function either of superior sensors and missiles, used at standoff ranges, introducing a whole can of worms to do with Rules of Engagement, or other measures must be sought to improve survivability. Clearly throwing expensive fighter assets into a Somme style attrition warfare meat grinder is not going to win an air war, unless you have twice as many expendable aeroplanes and pilots as your opponent has. With the slow production rates typical of modern high tech weapons and expensive and time consuming training of scarce aircrew (what fraction of any population has the talent to even get through the training required to become a fast jet pilot ?), this is a losers' strategy
 
Last edited:

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
@Decklander, @p2prada, @ersakthivel, @Rahul Singh, @Kunal Biswas, @Armand2REP, @Ray Sir

In light of the above article, would the experts like to comment/share something ?

I have few of my own queries: Is PAKFA's stealth really 20 years behind Raptor? If not, how much is the gap (if quantifiable ) & are there any workarounds in sight to bridge the capability gap?

Is WVR warfare & era of dogfight passe, even in Asian geography ? How prepared is IAF for that ( in terms of training, equipment, skill & vision), especially w.r.t. PLAAF & PAF ?

Does Rafale or FGFA stand a chance against J-20 (hypothetical scenario) ? If so, how exactly would a typical combat between the 2 aircraft would look like?

Is the following statement 100% true under all circumstances : No matter how good a conventional fighter is, and how good its missiles and sensors are, an engagement flown against a stealthy fighter aircraft is a no win proposition ?

Would Su-30MKI becomes completely vulnerable in skies dominated by SU-35 + J-20 ? Would they be rendered useless for Air-superiority missions?
What would be Indian strategy to dominate & defend its airspace in such cases ?

How relevant is Rafale as a Air-superiority fighter, especially in formations with SU-30MKI ?

If stealth is really such an incredible game change & Russia is nowhere to be seen in the stealth game (&, if their stealth tech. are really limited to RAM coating & some nozzle shaping/internal weapons-bays), wonder what tech. absorption we might gain from investing billions in FGFA....&

& finally, how do think AMCA would shape up in absence of any relevant technical inputs from anywhere (stealth related) ?
Defence R&D in India has not produced results (especially aviation-related IP). Funding is not going to see much improvement in future, as well.

Answers to these queries might interest other many others on DFI...
The F-22 is only stealthy against X band fire control radars of today. Tomorrow's L band ASEA radars will zero in on F-22's real bigger RCS and it will no longer be stealth against them.


The bumblebee RCS of F-22 is only against X band radar. F-22 will return a healthy 1+ sq meter RCS if painted with LPI L band asea radars, whose operating frequency is above that of stelath compliance of F-22.

The only problem is L band asea radars are not sensitive enough to give target update in the final one or two kilometer distance. But if the missile has it's own hybrid seekers like infra red and active radar seeker the F-22 can be hit. So only the fourth gen fighters that don't have L band asea radars and hybrid missile seekers are going to be defenceless against them.

But unfortunately each and every one of present day 4.5th gen fighter has only X band fire control radars , that can't detect 5th gen X band stealths. But tomorrow they will sport L band asea along with hybrid seeker missile , and with the help of 5th gen stealth UCAVs flying ahead , the chances are even.

So a 4.5th gen flying along with stealth UCAVs that have even lower RCS than F-22 and Infra red plus L band asea Radars will relay the position of F-22 to the entire fleet. But it can happen only in future when all the tech in the chain link matures.

Stealth is just air frame shaping and RAM coating that can be done in India, the real problem for india is not stealth, it is the lack of high thrust to weight ratio engines and advanced sensors.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TrueSpirit

New Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
1,893
Likes
841
thank you Sir

The F-22 is only stealthy against X band fire control radars of today. Tomorrow's L band ASEA radars will zero in on F-22's real bigger RCS and it will no longer be stealth against them.


The bumblebee RCS of F-22 is only against X band radar. F-22 will return a healthy 1+ sq meter RCS if painted with LPI L band asea radars, whose operating frequency is above that of stelath compliance of F-22.

The only problem is L band asea radars are not sensitive enough to give target update in the final one or two kilometer distance. But if the missile has it's own hybrid seekers like infra red and active radar seeker the F-22 can be hit. So only the fourth gen fighters that don't have L band asea radars and hybrid missile seekers are going to be defenceless against them.

But unfortunately each and every one of present day 4.5th gen fighter has only X band fire control radars , that can't detect 5th gen X band stealths. But tomorrow they will sport L band asea along with hybrid seeker missile , and with the help of 5th gen stealth UCAVs flying ahead , the chances are even.

So a 4.5th gen flying along with stealth UCAVs that have even lower RCS than F-22 and Infra red plus L band asea Radars will relay the position of F-22 to the entire fleet. But it can happen only in future when all the tech in the chain link matures.

Stealth is just air frame shaping and RAM coating that can be done in India, the real problem for india is not stealth, it is the lack of high thrust to weight ratio engines and advanced sensors.
 

aerokan

New Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Messages
1,024
Likes
818
Country flag
Its World War II as far as Russians are concerned, designing planes to meet past needs rather then for the future, Manuverbility is just a turd the Russians keep polishing because they dont have anything else.

Moores law has made the tactic of evading missiles a thing of the past. Moore's law is the observation that, over the history of computing hardware, the number of transistors on integrated circuits doubles approximately every two years. The period often quoted as "18 months" is due to Intel executive David House, who predicted that period for a doubling in chip performance (being a combination of the effect of more transistors and their being faster).

Kopp

Once the opponent has acquired you, he can shoot you and most likely, kill you. Exchange rates then become a function either of superior sensors and missiles, used at standoff ranges, introducing a whole can of worms to do with Rules of Engagement, or other measures must be sought to improve survivability. Clearly throwing expensive fighter assets into a Somme style attrition warfare meat grinder is not going to win an air war, unless you have twice as many expendable aeroplanes and pilots as your opponent has. With the slow production rates typical of modern high tech weapons and expensive and time consuming training of scarce aircrew (what fraction of any population has the talent to even get through the training required to become a fast jet pilot ?), this is a losers' strategy
hmm.. Usage of Moore's law to defend your point!!! Why is Moore's law applicable only to one side of the engagement? All your arguments about F-22 being superior is based on the assessment that there is no one currently in the field who can match it's stealth. What if Moore's law is applied to stealth detection? F-22 would no longer be stealthy enough for the next gen radars. What do u say?
 

average american

New Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,540
Likes
441
hmm.. Usage of Moore's law to defend your point!!! Why is Moore's law applicable only to one side of the engagement? All your arguments about F-22 being superior is based on the assessment that there is no one currently in the field who can match it's stealth. What if Moore's law is applied to stealth detection? F-22 would no longer be stealthy enough for the next gen radars. What do u say?
The most stealthy plane is allways going to be detected last and that is sure death to the least stealthy plane in current and future warfare.
 
Last edited:

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
The most stealthy plane is allways going to be detected last and that is sure death to the least stealthy plane in current and future warfare.
All stealth planes are stealth compliant only against the Xband radar waves, not against L bands and VHF bands.

All stealthy planes will be detected at 120 km range by L band and other VHF band radars even now.

If they can't give accurate enough tracking info to BVR missiles with the beginning level tech of today, ,like X band radars right now , they are in a position to box the location of the stealthiest plane within a cube of few km wide sides.

So a missile can be cued to reach this box even with today's tech. Once it reaches this cube, it's infra red and active seekers will good enough tracking for homing.

Considering the Moore's law of advancement in electronics these tracking systems are going to get better and better, in future. So stealth is just going to be one of the factors.

Infact if accurate tracking tech for stealth is developed , then there is really no need to compromise aerodynamic airframe design for the sake of stealth, and fighter design may even go back to the basics of sticking to the best aerodynamic layout possible without worrying about stealth.
 
Last edited:

average american

New Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,540
Likes
441
The US Air Force is expected to use the F-22A Raptor armed with the glide wing equipped GBU-39/B SDB to destroy a defender's low band systems in the opening minutes of an engagement, relying on the standoff range of the weapon and speed/altitude of the fighter to deny engagement opportunities by defending IADS elements being cued by the low band radars. L bands and VHF bands systems are large and to be powerful enought to do any good to large to fit on a plane.

Raytheon powered JSOW-ER first flight - YouTube
Uploaded on Oct 30, 2009


Raytheon conducted the first free-flight test of a powered version of its Joint Stand-Off Weapon (JSOW) glide bomb on Oct. 1 2009. The extended-range JSOW-ER flew for 260 miles after release from a US Navy F/A-18 over the Pacific missile test range at Pt Mugu, Calif. The JSOW-ER is powered by a Hamilton Sundstrand TJ-150 turbojet, the same engine as used in Raytheon's Miniature Air-Laucnhed Decoy (MALD) for the US Air Force. .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-154_Joint_Standoff_Weapon
 
Last edited:

Articles

Top