P-8I maritime patrol aircraft

[Enquirer]

P8I are good and useful. We can't make them ourselves yet but drones we can. Rustom 2 is almost ready . So buying sea guardian is not very prudent. .

I say buy more p8i and cancel sea guardian rather deploy rustom 2 in huge numbers.

Rustom 2 will have 24 hrs endurance very good for sea patrolling.

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That absolutely doesn't make any sense at all!!!
I am suggesting buying Guardians instead of P8s!
Your logic is so weird I don't even want to unravel it.

 

[IndianHawk]

That absolutely doesn't make any sense at all!!!
I am suggesting buying Guardians instead of P8s!
Your logic is so weird I don't even want to unravel it.

My logic is rather simple we have indegenios alternative to gaurdian drone in rustom 2/ tapas drone.


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[Enquirer]

My logic is rather simple we have indegenios alternative to gaurdian drone in rustom 2/ tapas drone.


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Again, use your brain if you can!!!
I am suggesting NOT to buy expensive P8 and buy cheaper Guardian; and you're suggesting that expensive P8 should be bought just because India doesn't make it.....without understanding the operational value....and understanding the cost-benefit equation!
Rustom is not a direct comparison to Guardian! Rustom cannot match the range, endurance, speed and payload(sea/submarine specific) of Guradian!
You obviously don't even know what payload differences there are....for you anything in the air is a bird!
Ignoring you in future.

 

[asianobserve]

There are maritime surveilance missions that manned aircrafts are best suited for and there are those that drones can handle (usually with routinary preprogrammed flight paths).

 

[Indrajit]

The USA is also keen that the Indian Air Force buys the F-35 fighter aircraft. India is keen to buy about 114 fighters and the French, Russians and Swedes are also bidding for the deal.

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/...eps-to-sign-major-defence-deal-with-us/439989

The U.S. is keen that we buy the F-35...?? Why has nobody heard of that yet?

 

[Indrajit]

I think we should be careful how we approach the US. While I’m a big supporter of buying more from the US primarily that we don’t run into serious trade disputes given how presently it is in our favour, we are seeing some serious squeeze being put by the US. The latest is a threat to cap H1B visas if we don’t relent on data localisation. With that being the situation and likely more threats to follow, we need to keep our cards close to our chest right now.

 

[Immanuel]

Such aircraft are way to expensive to buy and maintain!!

All surveillance should be done via unmanned aircraft in future! This automatically reduces the size of the aircraft and increases the flight endurance (as there's no 30+ crew onboard)!

Really?

You do realize the P-8I is primarily a naval hunter meant to find, track and kill pesky subs from silent AIP diesel elecs or big ass boomers to tiny midget subs and the P-8I is at the forefront of this capability. IN going for these assets is critical and expect the eventually fleet size to be over 30+ aircraft. Also the 4+10 new builds will have new gen upgrades.

Let's first get a good fleet of regular and strike UAVs made in the country before we dream of auto sensing drones (this is a good 20 years down the line going by our pace)

 

[Immanuel]

Again, use your brain if you can!!!
I am suggesting NOT to buy expensive P8 and buy cheaper Guardian; and you're suggesting that expensive P8 should be bought just because India doesn't make it.....without understanding the operational value....and understanding the cost-benefit equation!
Rustom is not a direct comparison to Guardian! Rustom cannot match the range, endurance, speed and payload(sea/submarine specific) of Guradian!
You obviously don't even know what payload differences there are....for you anything in the air is a bird!
Ignoring you in future.

Guardian has it's place but so does the P-8I, being that it also has sub and ship killing abilities. With COMSACA and other agreements signed, we are about to get a lot of new tech goodies which is good.

 

[Enquirer]

Guardian has it's place but so does the P-8I, being that it also has sub and ship killing abilities. With COMSACA and other agreements signed, we are about to get a lot of new tech goodies which is good.

Cannot understand this fetish to spend Billions to save millions !!

 

[Enquirer]

Really?

You do realize the P-8I is primarily a naval hunter meant to find, track and kill pesky subs from silent AIP diesel elecs or big ass boomers to tiny midget subs and the P-8I is at the forefront of this capability. IN going for these assets is critical and expect the eventually fleet size to be over 30+ aircraft. Also the 4+10 new builds will have new gen upgrades.

Let's first get a good fleet of regular and strike UAVs made in the country before we dream of auto sensing drones (this is a good 20 years down the line going by our pace)

When cell phones became popular, no sane person said "let's get landlines in every village before we think of cell phones"

I am getting tired of explaining how to grab the future, when folks here can only parrot the history!!!

 

[Indrajit]

When cell phones became popular, no sane person said "let's get landlines in every village before we think of cell phones"

I am getting tired of explaining how to grab the future, when folks here can only parrot the history!!!

I think the argument is that the Guardian is complimentary to the P8, not a replacement. It does some of the work that the P8 Can do but not yet kill with the same efficiency. Given the vast areas, the additional order of the P8 is maybe warranted along with an order for the guardians which seems to be in the pipeline.

 

[IndianHawk]

Again, use your brain if you can!!!
I am suggesting NOT to buy expensive P8 and buy cheaper Guardian; and you're suggesting that expensive P8 should be bought just because India doesn't make it.....without understanding the operational value....and understanding the cost-benefit equation!
Rustom is not a direct comparison to Guardian! Rustom cannot match the range, endurance, speed and payload(sea/submarine specific) of Guradian!
You obviously don't even know what payload differences there are....for you anything in the air is a bird!
Ignoring you in future.

My brain says p8i offers phenomenal value and if India has to rule Indian Ocean more p8i are coming.

I'm well aware of sea gaurdian capabilities . India is getting non - armed version as of now which I'm not excited about. Rustom 2 may have less range and less payload but we can put it up in far larger numbers. Also money spend on rustom will help iterative development which will be way more capable than present version.

Ignoring me is your choice. You are welcome to it.

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[Enquirer]

I think the argument is that the Guardian is complimentary to the P8, not a replacement. It does some of the work that the P8 Can do but not yet kill with the same efficiency. Given the vast areas, the additional order of the P8 is maybe warranted along with an order for the guardians which seems to be in the pipeline.

I too am saying that the limited number of P8s can be complemented by Guardians. India doesn't need dozens of P8s - too expensive!
As I explained before, Guardians can do everything except probably drop torpedoes. But Guardians can easily signal to a P8 that's close by to sweep in to finish the job. As I also explained earlier...P8 can traverse 500Kms in 30 mins, while a sub would have only traversed about 25-30kms in that time!
Also, in a way Guardians will be more effective as they can be in flight continuously for about 42 hrs, while P8s may not be in flight for more than 5-6 hours!
I can't understand why everyone's fighting me on this obvious solution

 

[Enquirer]

My brain says p8i offers phenomenal value and if India has to rule Indian Ocean more p8i are coming.

I'm well aware of sea gaurdian capabilities . India is getting non - armed version as of now which I'm not excited about. Rustom 2 may have less range and less payload but we can put it up in far larger numbers. Also money spend on rustom will help iterative development which will be way more capable than present version.

Ignoring me is your choice. You are welcome to it.

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Dude! if you have a brain, you're definitely not using it!
How can Rustom be a replacement for Guardian in the sea roles?
Guardian can venture out to sea for about 1000 kms and stay there for nearly 2 days, while Rustom can only go couple of hundred kms, and stay for much smaller duration. And most important Guadian can drop sonobuoys, which Rustom cannot. Rustom doesn't have the payload capability to carry a large maritime radar or sonobuoy contraptions...

 

[Immanuel]

Cannot understand this fetish to spend Billions to save millions !!

How about you keep your fetishes under control and let our forces decide what they want.

 

[IndianHawk]

Dude! if you have a brain, you're definitely not using it!
How can Rustom be a replacement for Guardian in the sea roles?
Guardian can venture out to sea for about 1000 kms and stay there for nearly 2 days, while Rustom can only go couple of hundred kms, and stay for much smaller duration. And most important Guadian can drop sonobuoys, which Rustom cannot. Rustom doesn't have the payload capability to carry a large maritime radar or sonobuoy contraptions...

Rustom 2 has endurance of 20+ hours compared to guardian endurance of 27 hours.

Rustom 2 is already being refined. It has been stated by DRDO itself that predator performance is the goal for rustom 2.

Rustom 2 can carry surveillance payload of various types. I acknowledged I'm not aware of sonobuoys by drones so sea guardian has that advantage. But it's no way as cheap as people think.

Sea guardian deal in 2017 was supposed to be 2 billion USD for 22 drone that makes it 110 million per drone while p8i is 260 million a pop. Yet at double the cost p8i is multiple times more effective any which way one computes.

So why is buying 10 more p8i better than 22 guardian at same price.

We have no rush for sea guardian necessity that money should go to rustom 2 development .
And it seems govt is thinking on the same lines with reports of cutting sea guardian order to just 10 drone.

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[Immanuel]

I too am saying that the limited number of P8s can be complemented by Guardians. India doesn't need dozens of P8s - too expensive!
As I explained before, Guardians can do everything except probably drop torpedoes. But Guardians can easily signal to a P8 that's close by to sweep in to finish the job. As I also explained earlier...P8 can traverse 500Kms in 30 mins, while a sub would have only traversed about 25-30kms in that time!
Also, in a way Guardians will be more effective as they can be in flight continuously for about 42 hrs, while P8s may not be in flight for more than 5-6 hours!
I can't understand why everyone's fighting me on this obvious solution

Sure Guardian is good addition but the P-8I not only brings anti sub or anti ship abilities, keep in mind it has a sophisticated air tracking mode as well which will help keep an eye on the IOR as well as take the fight to South China Sea. It doubles as our own E-2D actually and will be used in air based control of air operations sometime the Guardian doesn't do.

Keeping in mind the vast swaths of ocean and high seas involved the 24-36 P-8I like aircraft that can not only detect and track but also atek action against threats as and when they come is is crucial. Very useful for hunting and killing a numerically superior PLAN & PN sub forces.

IN also need around 24 Sea Guardians.

 

[Immanuel]

If you're worried we are wasting billions on P-8I, I am perfectly fine with a Naval variant of Netra being enriched and ordered in large numbers around 30. Heck I'd be very glad if IAF woke up from it's slumber and ordered a dozen home grown Netra.

 

[Enquirer]

Rustom 2 has endurance of 20+ hours compared to guardian endurance of 27 hours.

Rustom 2 is already being refined. It has been stated by DRDO itself that predator performance is the goal for rustom 2.

Rustom 2 can carry surveillance payload of various types. I acknowledged I'm not aware of sonobuoys by drones so sea guardian has that advantage. But it's no way as cheap as people think.

Sea guardian deal in 2017 was supposed to be 2 billion USD for 22 drone that makes it 110 million per drone while p8i is 260 million a pop. Yet at double the cost p8i is multiple times more effective any which way one computes.

So why is buying 10 more p8i better than 22 guardian at same price.

We have no rush for sea guardian necessity that money should go to rustom 2 development .
And it seems govt is thinking on the same lines with reports of cutting sea guardian order to just 10 drone.

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Firstly Guardian is not based of Predator (whose performance parameters that Rustom 2 is struggling to match) but on MQ-9 Reaper! Guardian has an endurance of 42+ hours! Ever heard of P8 continously flying for 42 hours??

Rustom 2 can barely carry 200-250kg of 'equipment' (that includes the EO pod or SAR radar etc.). There's no capacity to add a powerful maritime radar etc! Whereas Guardian has an additional payload(beyond the sensors) of 1.5 tons.

How are you arguing so confidently on P8/Guardian issues without knowing the need for deploying sonobuoys? You know that aerial platforms cannot detect submerged subs unless sonobuoys are dropped in the water, right?

I really don't want to be hashing such basic info (that you guys should be researching before blabbing here). It gets tiring. Peace out!

 

[Immanuel]

Rustom 2 has endurance of 20+ hours compared to guardian endurance of 27 hours.

Rustom 2 is already being refined. It has been stated by DRDO itself that predator performance is the goal for rustom 2.

Rustom 2 can carry surveillance payload of various types. I acknowledged I'm not aware of sonobuoys by drones so sea guardian has that advantage. But it's no way as cheap as people think.

Sea guardian deal in 2017 was supposed to be 2 billion USD for 22 drone that makes it 110 million per drone while p8i is 260 million a pop. Yet at double the cost p8i is multiple times more effective any which way one computes.

So why is buying 10 more p8i better than 22 guardian at same price.

We have no rush for sea guardian necessity that money should go to rustom 2 development .
And it seems govt is thinking on the same lines with reports of cutting sea guardian order to just 10 drone.

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Well as for the idea we have no 'rush' to have the Guardian or other platform is a silly statement. IN is actually relying at the moment on limited aircraft, they have a need for over 300 airborne platforms. If anything, this is a delayed purchase. Without the P-8I, we are left laughably vulnerable for sub attacks since we also have delays in inducting proper sonars, AIP subs, heavy & light torpedos. The list goes on and on.

We have some face saving grace in the form of Brahmos & Club armed destroyers, frigates, some subs and ASW ships now coming into play quickly. Offcourse Vikky brings it's own quality to the battle field with it's air wing.

Hence even the MH-64R is being pushed through asap.