Orientalism as a Tool of Colonialism

[opesys]

Did you read or comprehend my post? Am I advocating that India colonize or subjugate China and Iran?

My point was why ignore south east Asian nations? Also you justification was "national interest"... If "National interest" is how it starts..and then in no time we would be doing the same thing like what "west" did or doing it still...

 

[civfanatic]

My point was why ignore south east Asian nations? Also you justification was "national interest"... If "National interest" is how it starts..and then in no time we would be doing the same thing like what "west" did or doing it still...

I already explained why I omitted Southeast Asian nations. Do you want me to explicitly list out all 30+ Asian nation-states?
I sincerely apologize, I did not know people were so insecure that they would cry their hearts out over a simple omission.

Our national interest is to have a peaceful and stable neighborhood, and our neighborhood is Asia. It is on that basic premise that the Pan-Asian ideology rests. Pursuing national interests need not mean invading and subjugating everyone around you. Note how America pursues its self-declared "national interests" in distant lands but at home retains strong cultural and diplomatic ties with Canada, its neighbor.

 

[opesys]

>>>>I did not know people were so insecure that they would cry their hearts out over a simple omission.

It matters because you were discussing Pan-Asian ideology with a Malaysian at that moment when you made that point ...You would have said the same thing too if India was not mentioned in the Pan-Asian ideology discussions...

 

[asianobserve]

I already explained why I omitted Southeast Asian nations. Do you want me to explicitly list out all 30+ Asian nation-states?
I sincerely apologize, I did not know people were so insecure that they would cry their hearts out over a simple omission.

No need for an apology. I understand where you're coming from being a self-avowed nationalist. The root word is "nation" and that's your nation. Just don't dangle the excuse that the whole of Asia should be included in your crusade since we are doing fine (in fact even better than some "great nation-states") under current status quo unless a better one presents itself.

Our national interest is to have a peaceful and stable neighborhood, and our neighborhood is Asia.

Then this Pan-Asianism will not solve your concern since some of the "great" nation-states are principally causing the problem. (In the first place I thought the concept is about cultural promotion...)

 

[civfanatic]

>>>>I did not know people were so insecure that they would cry their hearts out over a simple omission.

It matters because you were discussing Pan-Asian ideology with a Malaysian at that moment when you made that point ...You would have said the same thing too if India was not mentioned in the Pan-Asian ideology discussions...

Let's just say that I cannot assume everything and anything I see on the Internet to be fact...

If India was omitted in a discussion on Pan-Asianism, then I would ask the people discussing the matter to detail their views on India in the context of Pan-Asianism. I would not assume that their omission implied hostile intent or prejudice towards India, as that would be premature and, quite frankly, rather idiotic on my part.

 

[civfanatic]

No need for an apology. I understand where you're coming from being a self-avowed nationalist. The root word is "nation" and that's your nation. Just don't dangle the excuse that the whole of Asia should be included in your crusade since we are doing fine (in fact even better than some "great nation-states") under current status quo unless a better one presents itself.

I do not believe that nationalism and Pan-Asianism are antithetical by any means. One of the greatest Pan-Asianists in history, Sun Yat-sen, was also a nationalist.

Then this Pan-Asianism will not solve your concern since some of the "great" nation-states are principally causing the problem.

China is undergoing a phase common to all emerging nation-states where they seek to define their sphere of influence. This is totally understandable. I should remind you that even America fought wars with Canada and Mexico when they were a young republic, before settling down to establish strong political ties with them. Now, America, Canada, and Mexico are firm allies. The same is perfectly possible in the Asian context.

 

[asianobserve]

Let's just say that I cannot assume everything and anything I see on the Internet to be fact...

If India was omitted in a discussion on Pan-Asianism, then I would ask the people discussing the matter to detail their views on India in the context of Pan-Asianism. I would not assume that their omission implied hostile intent or prejudice towards India, as that would be premature and, quite frankly, rather idiotic on my part.

You can remedy the situation by also calling Malaysia one of the "great" nation-states of Asia like China and Iran.... :thumb:

 

[asianobserve]

I do not believe that nationalism are Pan-Asianism are antithetical by any means. One of the greatest Pan-Asianists in history, Sun Yat-sen, was also a nationalist.

It will be one messy aggrupation, with the Iranian, Chinese and Indian cultural self-importance. I wonder how the synthesis will happen...

Chinese: "Sweet and sour pork!" Indian and Iranian: "Haram!"

China is undergoing a phase common to all emerging nation-states where they seek to define their sphere of influence. That is totally understandable. I should remind you that even America fought wars with Canada and Mexico when they were a young nation, before settling down to establish strong political ties with them. Now, America, Canada, and Mexico are firm allies. The same is perfectly possible in the Asian context.

Well, that's exactly why I prefer to exist under American dominance because I don't like to undergo the same usually messy (which is what is happening now in our neighborhood) rise of a nouveau power...

 

[civfanatic]

You can remedy the situation by also calling Malaysia one of the "great" nation-states of Asia like China and Iran.... :thumb:

Indonesia Raya would indeed be a great Asian nation-state.

 

[opesys]

Let's just say that I cannot assume everything and anything I see on the Internet to be fact...

If India was omitted in a discussion on Pan-Asianism, then I would ask the people discussing the matter to detail their views on India in the context of Pan-Asianism. I would not assume that their omission implied hostile intent or prejudice towards India, as that would be premature and, quite frankly, rather idiotic on my part.

Apology accepted

On a serious note, IMHO best thing to do is to dissolve all the boundaries:east,west,north,south...There is no point scoring points over west the way you are suggesting..all that you said sounds good on papers...This Pan-Asianism may even start out nicely as expected but in the end nobody can be sure if it will just end there...if history is any indicator not a single country has handled power with responsibility.

 

[asianobserve]

Indonesia Raya would indeed be a great Asian nation-state.

Okay. So NO to that corny and jurassic "Pan-Asianism" idea...!

 

[civfanatic]

It will be one messy aggrupation, with the Iranian, Chinese and Indian cultural self-importance. I wonder how the synthesis will happen...

A "synthesis" is not the goal. Did you read my previous posts?

The goal of Pan-Asianism is simply to promote cultural and political ties between the Asian nation-states, as a means of preventing future conflict and ensuring peaceful co-existence and stability throughout the Asian continent. The goal is NOT to replace the Asian nation-states with a new, monolithic entity, which would be totally unfeasible to say the least. Asia is a hugely diverse land replete with different civilizations and nation-states, and I have acknowledged this early on.

Well, that's exactly why I prefer to exist under American dominance because I don't like to undergo the same usually messy (which is what is happening now in our neighborhood) rise of a nouveau power...

The rise of this "nouveau" power, along with the rise of Asia in general, is inexorable. It cannot be stopped. When the Asian continent is home to over half of humanity, it is destined that Asia will play a greater role in the world as a whole.

The question is: how will the rise of the individual Asian nation-states affect the long-term peace and stability of the Asian continent? To prevent a situation similar to what Europe faced, with the competition between individual nation-states leading to the horrors of WWI and WWII, it is necessary that we promote the Pan-Asian ideal.

 

[asianobserve]

The question is: how will the rise of the individual Asian nation-states affect the long-term peace and stability of the Asian continent? To prevent a situation similar to what Europe faced, with the competition between individual nation-states leading to the horrors of WWI and WWII, it is necessary that we promote the Pan-Asian ideal.

Now we're moving from a cultural collective like the "West" into a political body. If it is stability that we desire then I still maintain that this Pan-Asianism idea is really not the solution (sounds like another iteration of the uninspiring "Non-Aligned Movement," the vehicle with which some "great" Asian nation-states intended to project power from). We already have the UN for this purpose and adding a new super body will only add to international bureaucracy. In any case, I am more comfortable in the UN were there are other "great" nations sitting and balancing the "great" Asian nation-states.

As a side note, I wonder why smaller countries around these "great" Asian nation-states don't feel comfortable being around them..?

 

[asianobserve]

I do not believe that nationalism and Pan-Asianism are antithetical by any means. One of the greatest Pan-Asianists in history, Sun Yat-sen, was also a nationalist.

BTW, what did Dr. Sun Yat-sen achieve in terms of enhancing Asian regional relations/cooperation?

 

[asianobserve]

xxx it is necessary that we promote the Pan-Asian ideal.

This sounds like the kind of social engineering that NAZI Germany once tried to do across Europe...

 

[blank_quest]

The term generically refers to liberal democracy (pluralism) emphasis on individual rights, sub-cultures, etc.

And What is Eastern Values then??

 

[asianobserve]

And What is Eastern Values then??

Personally, I believe these concepts of "West" and "East" is becoming passe in today's realities. But for purposes of academic discussions I can say that the most prominent of the old Eastern or Asian values are respect for the elders and the general primacy of family or community welfare over self.

 

[Energon]

@civicfanatic and @asianobserve both of you make some really good arguments kudos!

civicfanatic, in regards to Pan Asianism:
I understand the intended purposes. However as I stated earlier the problem is that the paradigm of relationships between countries or regions has changed. Cultural heritage is no longer an applicable currency in forming bonds. Inter regional or inter-national relationship now are almost entirely defined by geopolitics, economics and natural resources. Any sort of a potential fraternal- cooperative connection between China and India will be determined by their economic relationship such as trade balance or mutual beneficence, ease of conducting cross border business and most importantly an equitable standard of living. References to historic cultural bonds will largely serve to enhance superficial displays of friendship (soft power) but not much more. Also China doesn't need any sort of a consolidated movement to dispel the myths about their culture created through Orientalism vis a vis the West. They can well enough do this by themselves through their economic rise. Japan too was once dismissed as backward culture in the West, yet now not only does the West have a greater respect for the Japanese but it has embraced many aspects of Japanese culture.

This is exactly why I do not see any sort of a pan asian collective. China is far ahead of India economically and Iran is still stuck in a vortex. Rest assured China has no interest in genuine relationship of this sort and if they were to agree to something like this it will only be to increase their economic dominance. Also, you mentioned China, India and Iran, but forgot to mention Bangladesh and Pakistan which are critical links in the relationship involving ancient cultural ties. Why?

As things stand there will be no real Pan Asian movement because there is no mutual beneficence in economies and the disparities in the standard of living are increasing at a rapid pace. You also made a very good point about the need to develop a prophylactic measure to avoid a catastrophic conflict as evinced in Europe. Here too intercultural relationships will not really mean much, because as long as the disparities between these countries (especially India and Pakistan) keep rising the potential for conflict will remain high.

 

[afako]

@Energon

I am still waiting for your reply.

 

[Energon]

But for purposes of academic discussions I can say that the most prominent of the old Eastern or Asian values are respect for the elders and the general primacy of family or community welfare over self.

And therein lies the problem with assigning cultural attributes. If you look at the entire historic timeline of the Western civilization all the above mentioned values have always been present. Strict family values, respect for elders, dedication to community, emphasis on education etc. etc. are technically all Western values as well. I don't think people realize that Western societies (at least in the United States) were highly puritanical up until fairly recent. The reduction in these practices isn't as much about cultural values as it about things like increased access to capital, emancipation, increased social mobility, financial independence, increase in standard of living, increased access to communication technology and urbanization... aka modernity. It just so happened that due to a confluence of factors the West achieved modernity first. As countries like India and China rapidly modernize we can see similar trends. This is instinctively blamed upon the nefarious influence of Western culture, but that's not technically true, it is the merely the price of modernity.