New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Mangal]

Has AK 103 been choosen to be the rifle for 7.62*39 tender? Or the competition is still going on?

 

[Hari Sud]

Anybody with good knowledge, please educate us on why the selection of Sig Sayer as a battle rifle, please.

Educate us, why India went for this rifle (high priced) and ignored Galil, Caracal, even not in competition rifles like FAL derivates or South Korean battle rifle, Bren etc.

Thank you.

 

[Wisemarko]

What a proud moment for India to import rifle- the most basic piece of armaments, due to inability to supply a decent domestic design. If local players bid and lost, that would have been ok. Not to even have a capacity to design such a basic item to current world standards- absolutely shameful.

 

[Indrajit]

Anybody with good knowledge, please educate us on why the selection of Sig Sayer as a battle rifle, please.

Educate us, why India went for this rifle (high priced) and ignored Galil, Caracal, even not in competition rifles like FAL derivates or South Korean battle rifle, Bren etc.

Thank you.

L1 means the lowest priced quoted. End of story. I don’t think there is anything else.

 

[Hari Sud]

What a proud moment for India to import rifle- the most basic piece of armaments, due to inability to supply a decent domestic design. If local players bid and lost, that would have been ok. Not to even have a capacity to design such a basic item to current world standards- absolutely shameful.

Wrong!

The Indian and many other imported rifles fail during (I guess) 2000 round burnout test. There are only two stoppages permitted. Much of the imported and Indian INSAS -1c and others failed. I have no idea how did the imported stuff behaved but Russian AK-47 and M-16 a got burnout at about 850 to 900 rounds. In the You tube there are video of these burnout tests and flames/smoke could be seen coming out after live fire drill with that many rounds. Most of the Indian made and imported brands failed to pass this test.

Metallurgy of the rifle and more specifically barrel is the key. India has not mastered that. It is unlikely that mastery will be achieved any time soon. When American gun makers make copies of Russian AK-47, they import the barrel material from Russia.

So remember that, before you go too critical of Indian design.

 

[Hari Sud]

L1 means the lowest priced quoted. End of story. I don’t think there is anything else.

That was not the question. Everybody understand L1.

Before the L1 takes place, what criteria brings them to L1.

 

[Wisemarko]

Wrong!

The Indian and many other imported rifles fail during (I guess) 2000 round burnout test. There are only two stoppages permitted. Much of the imported and Indian INSAS -1c and others failed. I have no idea how did the imported stuff behaved but Russian AK-47 and M-16 a got burnout at about 850 to 900 rounds. In the You tube there are video of these burnout tests and flames/smoke could be seen coming out after live fire drill with that many rounds. Most of the Indian made and imported brands failed to pass this test.

Metallurgy of the rifle and more specifically barrel is the key. India has not mastered that. It is unlikely that mastery will be achieved any time soon. When American gun makers make copies of Russian AK-47, they import the barrel material from Russia.

So remember that, before you go too critical of Indian design.

I don’t even know what you are trying to say!

 

[Kchontha]

Does becoming L1 guaranty the weapon is selected?

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[Enquirer]

Does becoming L1 guaranty the weapon is selected?

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In large and complex business deals (like Rafale), both L1 & L2 are selected and then the actual price haggling and term negotiations take place. This is true especially when the products from different vendors differ from each other in various respects.

If it were a bid to supply a 'commodity' like salt then L1 is directly handed the contract!

 

[binayak95]

Anybody with good knowledge, please educate us on why the selection of Sig Sayer as a battle rifle, please.

Educate us, why India went for this rifle (high priced) and ignored Galil, Caracal, even not in competition rifles like FAL derivates or South Korean battle rifle, Bren etc.

Thank you.

The SIG 716 brings an improved short stroke piston system to the AR15 platform. It's completely ambidextrous, weighs in at a measly 4.3 Kgs and the G2 series is even lighter.

Gun gurus who have fired tens of thousands of rounds through the gun have found it to be extremely tolerant to wildly different ammo loads and even fired steel cased cheap ammo like Wolf without issues. Out of the box the gun does 1.3 MOA which speaks highly of its accuracy.

Recoil is very soft- not jarring like the FAL/SLR or god forbid the M14.

The Gas block has four presets for normal, suppressed, cut off and a overgassed setting for particularly dirty conditions.

Reliability also seems to be on point.

Overall, an exceptionally well made gun that does what is asked of it.

Of course creature comforts are a given !
As far as pricing goes, Sig probably saw this as a chance at dominating a huge market by swallowing a slight loss (unlikely). They have done similar things. The US Army replacement program for Beretta 92 was won by SIG by basically selling at cost. They make money with later deals as other forces in US switched to the army pistol (US Army tests are a benchmark). SIG probably expects something similar here.

 

[piKacHHu]

Does becoming L1 guaranty the weapon is selected?

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

For Most of the Government/Civil e-Tenders, Yes !!
The tender floating and awarding is multi-staged process:
1. RFI: for gathering information from multiple vendors to obtain quotations for budgetary and tech spec preparation.
2. RFP: Equivalent Publication of NIT with all the requirement and timelines in place. Pre-bid meetings for clarification on end user requirements.
3. Tender Opening Part A: Technical Evaluation of the bids, Financial health of company as well as history of previous orders were considered. Field trials, tech evaluation etc were included. Only those financial bids are to be opened in next sage which are found technically suitable i.e. Passed all the required test.
4. Tender Opening Part B: Opening of Financial Bids. Based on the financial bids, lowest bid is discovered as L1. This process is followed by CNC negotiation committee and Deal signing.
It has been a norm that Post Part B opening, L1 has to be awarded the contract as it is the lowest technically suitable offer. However, in big contracts companies usually exploit loop holes in tender to extract their margins which may have gone unnoticed during Part A evaluation. So, at the CNC stage, if such anomaly comes into picture, the committee has to re-tender as no option is available beyond L1. It is to be noted that Financial Bids cannot be changed by the companies once the tender is open.
To give some leeway to Govt for Strategic purchases, DPP states that sticking to L1 is not compulsory. Hence, it is to be seen that whether Govt classify rifle procurement tender as strategic purchase or not.
"In certain acquisition cases, imperatives of
strategic partnerships or major diplomatic,
political, economic, technological or military benefits deriving from a particular procurement may be the principal factor determining the choice of a specific platform or equipment on a single vendor basis. These considerations may also dictate the selection of particular equipment offered by a vendor not necessarily the lowest bidder (L1)."
Source: DPP Document

 

[Kchontha]

Thanks @piKacHHu, your information/source is illuminating.

For Most of the Government/Civil e-Tenders, Yes !!
The tender floating and awarding is multi-staged process:
1. RFI: for gathering information from multiple vendors to obtain quotations for budgetary and tech spec preparation.
2. RFP: Equivalent Publication of NIT with all the requirement and timelines in place. Pre-bid meetings for clarification on end user requirements.
3. Tender Opening Part A: Technical Evaluation of the bids, Financial health of company as well as history of previous orders were considered. Field trials, tech evaluation etc were included. Only those financial bids are to be opened in next sage which are found technically suitable i.e. Passed all the required test.
4. Tender Opening Part B: Opening of Financial Bids. Based on the financial bids, lowest bid is discovered as L1. This process is followed by CNC negotiation committee and Deal signing.
It has been a norm that Post Part B opening, L1 has to be awarded the contract as it is the lowest technically suitable offer. However, in big contracts companies usually exploit loop holes in tender to extract their margins which may have gone unnoticed during Part A evaluation. So, at the CNC stage, if such anomaly comes into picture, the committee has to re-tender as no option is available beyond L1. It is to be noted that Financial Bids cannot be changed by the companies once the tender is open.
To give some leeway to Govt for Strategic purchases, DPP states that sticking to L1 is not compulsory. Hence, it is to be seen that whether Govt classify rifle procurement tender as strategic purchase or not.
"In certain acquisition cases, imperatives of
strategic partnerships or major diplomatic,
political, economic, technological or military benefits deriving from a particular procurement may be the principal factor determining the choice of a specific platform or equipment on a single vendor basis. These considerations may also dictate the selection of particular equipment offered by a vendor not necessarily the lowest bidder (L1)."
Source: DPP Document

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Indrajit]

That was not the question. Everybody understand L1.

Before the L1 takes place, what criteria brings them to L1.

The assumption is that all required parameters being met, the lowest quote is L1. There’s is no other criteria. It’s highly unlikely a complicated criteria for determine L1 exists for rifles. This is not an fighter aircraft where some parameters may require in-depth study. L1 is likely very straightforward in this case.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

What a proud moment for India to import rifle- the most basic piece of armaments, due to inability to supply a decent domestic design. If local players bid and lost, that would have been ok. Not to even have a capacity to design such a basic item to current world standards- absolutely shameful.

Why do not they reverse engineer if they can not design it.

 

[devhensh]

The SIG 716 brings an improved short stroke piston system to the AR15 platform. It's completely ambidextrous, weighs in at a measly 4.3 Kgs and the G2 series is even lighter.

Gun gurus who have fired tens of thousands of rounds through the gun have found it to be extremely tolerant to wildly different ammo loads and even fired steel cased cheap ammo like Wolf without issues. Out of the box the gun does 1.3 MOA which speaks highly of its accuracy.

Recoil is very soft- not jarring like the FAL/SLR or god forbid the M14.

The Gas block has four presets for normal, suppressed, cut off and a overgassed setting for particularly dirty conditions.

Reliability also seems to be on point.

Overall, an exceptionally well made gun that does what is asked of it.

Of course creature comforts are a given !
As far as pricing goes, Sig probably saw this as a chance at dominating a huge market by swallowing a slight loss (unlikely). They have done similar things. The US Army replacement program for Beretta 92 was won by SIG by basically selling at cost. They make money with later deals as other forces in US switched to the army pistol (US Army tests are a benchmark). SIG probably expects something similar here.

Very well summarized and something very similar to what is have written on another thread here.....By the way SIG recently has won many contracts in the very competitive European market....SIG's MCX Virtus has beaten HK 416 for even German Police contracts and many other places....This 7.62x51 rifle is based on the same platform and principles.....If they win the Indian contract, they will have amny many more orders, as the whole world knows , how demanding our conditions and tetsing is ...

 

[Wisemarko]

Why do not they reverse engineer if they can not design it.

The government sector doesn’t care about success. They want some programs in pipelines to get monthly salaries. Unlike private companies, where you will not survive without success, government owned businesses invariably fail to reach potential.

 

[sreenevasachha]

Can anybody speak about MCIWS progress

Can we take foreign company help (as consultant) to audit and suggest changes to MCIWS

 

[sreenevasachha]

Can we get better metallurgy with help of our IIT professors

 

[ezsasa]

Can anybody speak about MCIWS progress

Can we take foreign company help (as consultant) to audit and suggest changes to MCIWS

MCIWS project is closed, IA is no longer interested in that particular GSQR.

 

[Enquirer]

Can anybody speak about MCIWS progress

Can we take foreign company help (as consultant) to audit and suggest changes to MCIWS

Dude! Rifle technology is nearly 70 years old!! Nothing much has really changed .
If OFB/DRDO cannot produce something that matches even an AK47 then they should hang their heads in shame!