New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Which Contender`s Rifle has more chances of winning than others?


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binayak95

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Where did you get the numbers from?
I have heard even lower quotes for the SIG variant - around 950USD. Which sounds Ridiculously good. I am very interested to see a source. My source will remain nameless - suffice to say in-service personnel who are in the know.
 

mohitbhagat

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I have heard even lower quotes for the SIG variant - around 950USD. Which sounds Ridiculously good. I am very interested to see a source. My source will remain nameless - suffice to say in-service personnel who are in the know.
The DAC cleared almost $2 billion for assault Rifles only. So you can well imagine that there's enough budget to allot these rifles to our entire force. The 3 services combined requires around 7.4 lakhs assault Rifles. So @$990 per piece we can get these rifles in $732.6 million. So I don't know what's stopping our decision makers from doing so. Also when they can quote $990 for 72400 odd rifles you can well imagine the rate they will quote when you ask them to supply us 10 times of the numbers we are buying right now
 

mohitbhagat

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Special Forces don't depend upon the large scale tender process. The MOD allows Vice Chiefs of all three services some economical powers to buy weapons and equipments in small numbers without the permission or clearance from the DAC. These special powers are used to buy equipments and weapons mainly for the Special forces. This is the reasons SFs doesn't lack quality arms and ammunition of their needs. They have all types of different armaments in their inventory. But yes
 

mohitbhagat

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The SIG 716 brings an improved short stroke piston system to the AR15 platform. It's completely ambidextrous, weighs in at a measly 4.3 Kgs and the G2 series is even lighter.

Gun gurus who have fired tens of thousands of rounds through the gun have found it to be extremely tolerant to wildly different ammo loads and even fired steel cased cheap ammo like Wolf without issues. Out of the box the gun does 1.3 MOA which speaks highly of its accuracy.

Recoil is very soft- not jarring like the FAL/SLR or god forbid the M14.

The Gas block has four presets for normal, suppressed, cut off and a overgassed setting for particularly dirty conditions.

Reliability also seems to be on point.

Overall, an exceptionally well made gun that does what is asked of it.

Of course creature comforts are a given !
As far as pricing goes, Sig probably saw this as a chance at dominating a huge market by swallowing a slight loss (unlikely). They have done similar things. The US Army replacement program for Beretta 92 was won by SIG by basically selling at cost. They make money with later deals as other forces in US switched to the army pistol (US Army tests are a benchmark). SIG probably expects something similar here.
Just like the US army, Indian military also follows the same path. What the army buys the rest buys. And when we say the rest it not just the navy and the Airforce but it includes the coast guards, various paramilitaries forces and the police forces of India. So in short whoever wins the tender not only becomes a choice of weapon for the all 3 branch of military but of entire India
 

mohitbhagat

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Wrong!

The Indian and many other imported rifles fail during (I guess) 2000 round burnout test. There are only two stoppages permitted. Much of the imported and Indian INSAS -1c and others failed. I have no idea how did the imported stuff behaved but Russian AK-47 and M-16 a got burnout at about 850 to 900 rounds. In the You tube there are video of these burnout tests and flames/smoke could be seen coming out after live fire drill with that many rounds. Most of the Indian made and imported brands failed to pass this test.

Metallurgy of the rifle and more specifically barrel is the key. India has not mastered that. It is unlikely that mastery will be achieved any time soon. When American gun makers make copies of Russian AK-47, they import the barrel material from Russia.

So remember that, before you go too critical of Indian design.
A lot also depends upon the quality of the ammo. Right from the accuracy to the ballistic performance and to the barrel the quality of the ammo matters a lot. Ofb made ammo have a very bad reputation of manufacturing substandard ammo. Many a times army returns entire consignment of the supply due to it.
 

mohitbhagat

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Anybody with good knowledge, please educate us on why the selection of Sig Sayer as a battle rifle, please.

Educate us, why India went for this rifle (high priced) and ignored Galil, Caracal, even not in competition rifles like FAL derivates or South Korean battle rifle, Bren etc.

Thank you.
1st of all it's not that high priced. Their bid amount is $990 per piece. Which is a pretty good price for a battle rifle chambered in 7.62 nato.
FAL is an old rifle and no weapons based on it was offered by any company.
Also all the rifles offered by IWI, Sig Sauer, Caracal were good. Sig won because it quoted the best(least) price.
Korean firm only participated in carbine tender as they didn't had any battle rifle chambered in 7.62 nato
 

mohitbhagat

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SIG battle rifle is priced at $3000 a piece, it could not be the lowest biddler.

Israeli Galil is priced at $2000 a piece. Then how could SIG could be the L1 bidder.

South Korean battle rifle is priced at about $800 a piece. So is Caracal battle rifle with 7.62x51 is also priced at $800.

All these rifles were in the running.

Hence what made the Army select SIG battle rifle.
Civilian version of sig Sauer 716 g2 patrol version MSRP at $2385. It quoted a price of $990 per piece and won the tender.
Since korean firm was disqualified for the carbine tender the Car816 won after quoting a price of $1150 per piece. And frankly speaking I'm glad the koreans got disqualified. Caracal makes much better rifles than them. Specially when 816 is an improvement over Hk416
 

mohitbhagat

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Some interesting points about about SIG Sauer and Carcal :

1 CARCAL was established in 2007 when UAE decided to become self reliant in small arms .They hired experts around the globe, from countries such as the US, Germany, Russia and India etc.These expert established the R&D ,Manufacturing and quality control ,as it was first time for the UAE to venture into small arms development and production .Now ,not only UAE has become self reliant in small arms but is on the verge of selling their product to India-which has the honor of having world class small arms producing facility since its independence.

2 Yes you heard it right ,there are many Indians working in CARCAL,for example their CAD designer is an Indian.

3 CARCL 716 is based on short stroke piston and is an improved version of Hk 416.

4 The brain behind HK 416 ,SIG SAUER 816 and CARCAL 716 is one - Robert Hirt.

5 Robert Hirt is a German engineer hired by CARCAL,he is the man behind setting up the manufacturing facility to quality control for CARCAL .He is at present the Chief Operating Officer of Caracal.First he was working for HK ,where he developed HK 416, then he moved to SIG sauer where he worked on SIG 817,516, 517 and the MCX programs; from there he was hired by CARCAL.

5 The CEO of Caracal, Hamad Salem Al Ameri, is not your typical CEO or businessman or BABU. He is an active duty UAE Army Special Forces officer who was commissioned in the Royal Military Academy in Sandhurst, UK.Being an end user,he is actively involved in weapon development.

6 Caracal has signed a MoU with MKU for production of assault rifles at MKU proposed facility in Kanpur, Uttar Pradesh. However, it remain to be seen whether these carbine are manufactured here or not ,as the order of 95000 is too small to create new manufacturing facility plus the rifles have to be delivered within a year of contract signing .

7 SIG SAUER past has been shady in India - Abhishek Verma and his wife `bribed’ MHA officials to help Sig Sauer seal deal.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...Sig-Sauer-seal-deals/articleshow/19055735.cms


8 SIG SAUER 816 had also participated in the Pakistani army trials for their new assault rifle.However ,no rifle passed all the tests without issues.The FN SCAR was the only rifle that was finalized, officially accepted, with licensed manufacturing approved.


The crux of the matter is UAE decided to become self sufficient in small arms ,started in 2007 and was not only able to gain self sufficiency in such a short time, but able to produce such world class weapons, that one of the major army of the world -the Indian army is on the verge of buying from them.Honestly l1 from them is not surprising ,as the legitimacy which this deal would provide them world over regarding their weapons is worth more than some profit which they will lose in short term .However ,the point worth pondering is why OFB -which was among one of the most advance rifle factory at time of our independence and has produced world class rifles such as SMLE and SLR is in such a pathetic state today.I blame the Babus,OFB wallas work ethics and the politicians who have been in government at different period of time till date.

Hope the rifle finalized are SIG716 g2 and Caracal 816 a2 which are the latest iteration of these rifles.Also,IMHO it would be best if we source the 7.62 rifle and 5.56 rifle from the same vendor as a package deal,such as carcal 816 and 817.It is much ore practical deal and should be much more cheaper in a package, rather than going in for multiple OEM.
Buddy you mistakenly wrote sig 816 instead of sig 716 and CAR 716 instead of car 816.
And your information is right. Many didn't know much about the Caracal and think that they are not good just because they are relatively new compared to others. Car816 is even better than the rifle its based on ie Hk416. And anybody having even a little knowledge about firearms knows the reputation of Hk416.
Also you highlighted a very valid point of trying to go for a single manufacture for both assault Rifles and Carbine deal. That would be 516 or MCX and 716 from sig or 816 and 817 from Caracal. This deal will make them more than willing to setup manufacturing facility in India.
The pakistanis are trying to get a similar deal from a polish arms manufacturer. They are trying to licence produce all three rifles chambered in 7.62 nato, 7.62×39mm and 5.56 nato from a single firm in a packed deal.
 

mohitbhagat

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With all humility here are few suggestion regarding the upcoming AK 103 deal:

1 Ak 103 is a very good rifle with proven credentials ,which has been upgraded into AK 203(which is purely meant for export),but buying this rifle for the army does not make much sense as the Russians themselves are moving to AK 12/AK 15 platforms, which is evolution of these AK 75/100 series rifles and have been given a go ahead after extensive trials by the Russian army.A new rifle is meant for the next 15-20 years,when Russian themselves are transitioning into new platform,it only make sense to go for the latest version and not for something which is at the end of its life cycle and being phased out in its own country(AK 75/103).Common sense dictate that AK 15/ak 15k should be the natural choice for the army.

2 We can bargain a good deal with Kalashnikov for our self , by proposing to make India the production hub of this rifle for export market .We can bring down cost through economy of scale,low cost labour and localisation of the parts.This can provide competitive edge to these rifles over others in export market.If executed properly it will be beneficial for both Kalashnikov and India.Our best bet will be to produce AK 15 for the army and capf while ak 103 for the police.

4 If somehow we choose to ignore the AK 15 and still insist on going for AK 103 ,then at least make sure it is AK 203 (upgraded AK 103).

5 Army does not exist to serve the OFB. At present as the things stand ,it will be a mistake to involve OFB into this- as concept of workmanship,professionalism,work culture,quality control ,responsibility ,productivity,accountability etc are alien to this organisation.Our best bet is to involve private sector with a clause to invest and start its own R&D by that enterprise along with this order.Technical know how regarding small arms should be transferred from the ARDE to this enterprise for free.If we have to strengthen our future in small arms development ,it is necessary to strengthen the private companies in this field.We should also relax our norms to allow the private sector to develop and sell their products worldover. Private industry in small arms in at a nascent stage in our country,they need all the nurturing and care if we want them to develop into something fruitful in future.


6 The spoon feeding and monopoly of OFB is responsible for the mess regarding small arms. Surity of their survival and lack of accountability have made them a liability,forget about military grade firearms ,they are unable to come up with a decent civilian pistol.The only way forward for this organisation is to bring in the much needed reforms which every defense minister tend to shrug under the carpet.

7 If government would still want to go with the OFB ,at-least let someone from defence services head OFB , abolish the Unions,bring in the audit,set performance target for them ; establish the accountability for it.Introduce the most stringiest quality control checks.

8 The biggest defence scam in India is failure to bell the cat ( defence DPSU ).Either reform them or disinvest them and establish new organisation for defence production directly under the armed forces or let ARDE handle the R&D and shift the production to private sector.If you are serious to establish the brand Made in India in defence sector and some good has to be done regarding defence production ,make quality the number one priority not the L1.


BTW,a contract has been signed between an Armenian company and Kalashnikov Concern concerning the licensed manufacturing of AK-12 and AK 15 .

AK 103



AK 203


AK 15

You are absolutely right. The ak15 is the best Russians can offer us right now and is going to be adopted by the Russian army themselves. Ak103 is now a old variant and I don't know why everybody keeps chanting about the Ak103 repeatedly in India
 

mohitbhagat

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Indian army has about 3.5 lakhs personal in infantry divisions. So to equip these people we need more than odd 72400 assault Rifles
What I do understand is
7.62*51 mm is for Infantry, a costlier gun, deadly
whereas non infantry to get7.62*39 mm, cheaper, good fire power and being lighter magazine will allow to carry more ammo
 

Hari Sud

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Ak-15 as well as Ak-12 are approved at best called under development by the Russian Army. It is almost AK-47 internally.

Ak-103 is fully developed and its internals are same as AK-47 so why wait for any other rifle to develop and be fully functional.
 

mohitbhagat

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As far as I know, someone in this forum quoted a paragraph from DRDO's annual report and it stated that MCIWS will continue to be developed upon.

Also, I am not so sure about Ak103 being selected as Kalashnikov is placed in the list of entities with whom if you do business, you will be sanctioned as per CAATSA.
Ak-15 as well as Ak-12 are approved at best called under development by the Russian Army. It is almost AK-47 internally.

Ak-103 is fully developed and its internals are same as AK-47 so why wait for any other rifle to develop and be fully functional.
Ak12/15 completed its trails in Dec 2017 and the Russian army adopted it in Jan 2018. Deliveries will start from the end of this year. It will be replacing the older Ak103 series of rifles.
 

mohitbhagat

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As far as I know, someone in this forum quoted a paragraph from DRDO's annual report and it stated that MCIWS will continue to be developed upon.

Also, I am not so sure about Ak103 being selected as Kalashnikov is placed in the list of entities with whom if you do business, you will be sanctioned as per CAATSA.
Ak-15 as well as Ak-12 are approved at best called under development by the Russian Army. It is almost AK-47 internally.

Ak-103 is fully developed and its internals are same as AK-47 so why wait for any other rifle to develop and be fully functional.
Ak12/15 completed its trails in Dec 2017 and the Russian army adopted it in Jan 2018. Deliveries will start from the end of this year. It will be replacing the older Ak103 series of rifles. So we can go ahead and get the rifles of this decade instead of buying a rifle of 1990s
 

mohitbhagat

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found this during random searching
It's an Ak Alfa made by Kalasnikov Israel owned by CAA. I've 1st seen it almost a year ago in youtube. There are couple of videos available of it. It is the best looking Ak available in the market. It makes the design of Ak12/15 look like 20 years old. Made with entirely new furniture. Infact if you take out the banana magazine out from it you won't even recognize it as an Ak but instead it will look like an AR15. It's a really good rifle and is fully ambidextrous just like the AR15's and very unlike any other Ak series of rifles. So its packed with all the goodies of the Ak47 that is mainly the super Reliable firing mechanism but minus the demerits of it which were poor ergonomics, accuracy, high recoil and inability to Mount various optics and equipments. This is where AK Alfa does everything right. AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO KNOW ABOUT THIS AK ALFA MADE BY KALASNIKOV ISRAEL OWNED BY CAA IS THAT LAST YEAR RELIANCE DEFENSE OWNED BY ANIL AMBANI SIGNED AN MOU WITH CAA AND APPLIED FOR A LICENSE IN JANUARY 2018 FOR LOCAL PRODUCTION OF THE SAME.
 

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