New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[ghost]

Considering that the rifle is being shot from the hip, the recoil doesn't seem that bad to me.

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[Chinmoy]

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WWWWOOOOWWWW................

As far as recoil is concerned, it really seems to be a mule's kick. But sound signature seems to be fine as far as a full power cartridge is considered.

 

[tharun]

If really army rejected OFB's 7.62x51mm,then IWI galil ace will be on the table.

 

[Heavenshaker]

I think all here agree that private sector should get involved. I would love to see a good desi gun, but can't blame army for rejecting a bad one.
Any idea if there is any scope of private sector getting involved in firearms ?

 

[Ashish Tomar]

There is a difference in having special calibers for special troops.. and having it en masse for the entire infantry.
Indian steel core ammunition has the capability to defeat BPJs.
The rest of the world has indeed left Battle Rifle calibers behind when it comes to infantry's personal weapons.

Best do your research properly first and not quote fanboy articles.

I don't understand how an article that was meant to give info about upcoming requirement from US army itself for a standard issue 7.62 NATO combat rifle can be termed as 'fanboy article'
Also can you tell me upto what distance Indian 5.56mm steel core round can defeat BPJs?
And rest of world hasn't left behind battle rifle calibres for general issue. Turkey, Portugal, Estonia, Greece, Pakistan all uses 7.62 HK-G3 as standard issue. Argentina, Brazil still uses FN FAL as standard issue rifle for their forces. Turkey is a major NATO force in Europe. They have developed 7.62 MPT-76 as a replacement for their HK-G3s, which is also being adopted by azerbaijan into full service. So i guess what you wanted to say was that major military forces have replaced 7.62mm with 5.56mm. I have done proper research and always do before posting something and suggest you to do the same before replying with half-baked knowledge.

 

[Chinmoy]

.
Here look at the recoil. Remind of elephant gun kick.

Now consider the noise level and recoil with Galil Ace 308

 

[Chinmoy]

I think all here agree that private sector should get involved. I would love to see a good desi gun, but can't blame army for rejecting a bad one.
Any idea if there is any scope of private sector getting involved in firearms ?

Did any single pvt player ever came forward when the RFI had been issued. All in all we got a JV of Punj Lyod and IWI for Tavor 5.56. Means pvt firms are content with screw driver job instead of designing something from grounds up. Have you ever thought why is it so?

For a brief history on Galil, it was formed in 60's after the Six Day war. They based their design on AK and took inspiration from M16 for accuracy. Till date Galil is undergoing improvement in its basic design. By timeline and experience, INSAS is 3 decades late. What we have seen of 1B1 and 1C are a a huge improvement of what had been handed over to IA in 1999.

Moreover we should also look into who were Yisrael Galil and Mikhail Kalashnikov. What were their backgrounds. Theirs become designer after retirement and ours goes into politics and expect someone mechanical passout to design a weapon for 2 million strong armed force. Designing part goes to someone who have not even seen a war zone and a rifle in such a zone in life. And what good our veterans do? Pass out comments on shows and start delivering notes on failures.

 

[Rushil51]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...le-set-for-Mhow-test/articleshow/59227184.cms

ICHHAPORE (West Bengal): The indigenously developed 7.62mm x 51mm assault rifle has met the expectations of the project management team, comprising representatives from the Indian Army and defence agencies, in round one of its trials.




The team found the rifle satisfactory on all aspects, barring one adjustment that it has sought before the next round of trials. P K Agarwal, additional general manager of Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI), confirmed that the trial was complete.




The RFI team is gearing up to make the adjustment before offering the rifle for the next round of trials at the Infantry School, Mhow (MP), which is the testing agency of the Indian Army.

 

[Rushil51]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...le-set-for-Mhow-test/articleshow/59227184.cms

ICHHAPORE (West Bengal): The indigenously developed 7.62mm x 51mm assault rifle has met the expectations of the project management team, comprising representatives from the Indian Army and defence agencies, in round one of its trials.




The team found the rifle satisfactory on all aspects, barring one adjustment that it has sought before the next round of trials. P K Agarwal, additional general manager of Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI), confirmed that the trial was complete.




The RFI team is gearing up to make the adjustment before offering the rifle for the next round of trials at the Infantry School, Mhow (MP), which is the testing agency of the Indian Army.

This is the news we heard on 20th June, that the rifle will go for a test to Infantry School Mhow. How the hell did the rifle get rejected in one day?! Aren't you guys suspicious about this at all?!

Let's find the source of the info, post where you read the news first or the with the news with earliest date and time. Let's find the origin of this news

 

[Chinmoy]

Its better than SLR ( short stroke piston ) which used to be in service, Honesty the recoil seems same as an AK when fire from hip in semi-auto ..

I think its gud for a solider of IA to have a INSAS based weapon, This is something we are familiar with and training and other drills will be same, Private co is not magic wand and they only bring foreign rifles with their name tag on it, This require no R&D and the weapon does not guarantee to work here without modifications which are not just its mechanism but also metallurgy ..

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400ms for Indian 5.56mm ..

I believe designing any AR based on INSAS platform is the only logical way. Every arms designer follows a template and INSAS is one for us. Redesigning another would be again a long story. As for sound signature and recoil is considered, it seems to same as that of Galil. But yes, we do have a lot to do with ergonomics. Frankly I believe in "Jo dikhta hain, woh bikta hain".

 

[ezsasa]

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Is there any video of INSAS being fired from the hip?

Just to get an idea on recoil....

 

[hammer head]

Hi Kunal saar, if you noticed they can improve these feed back like concelling the flash,bulge, stoppage or even site adjustment within 15-20 days .The only challenge is recoil.

Recoil will always be there especially in the case of 7.62 ammunition, but this can be controlled to a certain extent. Introduction of a SHORT STROKE PISTON will not just make the weapon lighter but will also reduce its recoil, But then even SSP based weapon has short a coming i.e systems are prone to a condition called
“carrier tilt.” Since the force is being applied directly to the top of the bolt the bolt carrier has a tendency to tilt. The rear bottom edge and the front top edge exert more force on the surrounding materials due to that tilt, and it has been known to wear holes in the receiver extension (but its not very frequent and is acceptable if compared to the added benefits).

Now compare it to a LONG STROKE PISTON our weapon will be heavy coz of the piston, It will have a strong recoil thereby affecting the accuracy because after every round fired the complete Bolt Assembly moves back along with the piston.

Now for FN FAL system. I have fired this weapon and i can assure you that you cannot control it if your firing it on Burst mode, Thier was a reason why Indian SLRs did not have an auto mode ( accuracy problem in subsequent shots) FN FAL system is an old hat in the trade.

If I am to buy a new gen weapon which is to be given to the Indian Army for its utilization for coming 20 years i would want the following min requirements:
1. Monolithic bolt carrier
2. Adjustable gas port
3. Ambidextrous safety and Mag release
4. Reciprocating, reversible charging handle
5. Integrated optics

5.56 or 7.62 well thats on Top bosses to fight for.

PS : my personal favorite will be FN SCAR 17

 

[sbm]

SCAR -H std barrel ? Maybe you're on to something. Is that the variant used by SFF? Problem may be robustness and cost?

 

[ghost]

Recoil will always be there especially in the case of 7.62 ammunition, but this can be controlled to a certain extent. Introduction of a SHORT STROKE PISTON will not just make the weapon lighter but will also reduce its recoil, But then even SSP based weapon has short a coming i.e systems are prone to a condition called
“carrier tilt.” Since the force is being applied directly to the top of the bolt the bolt carrier has a tendency to tilt. The rear bottom edge and the front top edge exert more force on the surrounding materials due to that tilt, and it has been known to wear holes in the receiver extension (but its not very frequent and is acceptable if compared to the added benefits).

Now compare it to a LONG STROKE PISTON our weapon will be heavy coz of the piston, It will have a strong recoil thereby affecting the accuracy because after every round fired the complete Bolt Assembly moves back along with the piston.

Now for FN FAL system. I have fired this weapon and i can assure you that you cannot control it if your firing it on Burst mode, Thier was a reason why Indian SLRs did not have an auto mode ( accuracy problem in subsequent shots) FN FAL system is an old hat in the trade.

If I am to buy a new gen weapon which is to be given to the Indian Army for its utilization for coming 20 years i would want the following min requirements:
1. Monolithic bolt carrier
2. Adjustable gas port
3. Ambidextrous safety and Mag release
4. Reciprocating, reversible charging handle
5. Integrated optics

5.56 or 7.62 well thats on Top bosses to fight for.

PS : my personal favorite will be FN SCAR 17

Long stroke piston is fine,recoil will be there,but they can reduce the perceived recoil (recoil which the shooter experience)

This can be done with new muzzle brake design,recoil pad on the stock,well engineered stock,a good buffer spring .

Beside recoil , if I am designing a new rifle in 2017,I'll keep few basic things in mind.
1 Floating barrel - to improve the accuracy.
2 Modular rifle - easily adjust to right and left hand shooting.
3 Adjustable stock - for the comfort of soldiers .
4 Full P rail on the top cover,along with quad rail on handguard -this is basic for a modern rifle.
5 A magazine design with window to view the number of rounds.
6 Sliding cover at the ejection port.

These are few fundamentals of the rifle design,you can do a lot more ,if you really want to!
My top 3 choice for a rifle in 7.62x51mm based on the user review and word of mouth all over the world are:

1 Hk 417 - I know HK does not sell to non NATO country,but if we really want it ,our government can make it happen.
2 SCAR H - It has set new standard for a 7.62x51mm rifle.
3 Galil ace - This rifle has proved itself in various military around the world.

Most importantly,I want all the rifles to compete, including the one offered by the OFB in a FREE AND FAIR trials and let the winner take the tender,irrespective of its origin,on condition of 100% TOT transfer and manufacturing in India with materials source from within India and promise of opening a R&D center in India by the private company holding majority shares of that JV.

 

[sbm]

Is the SCAR-H in SFF service? If so, do we want another choice? H&K does sell to non NATO countries - how do you think we Trinidadians got MP5s, UMPs and G36s? They don't sell to Jamaica!

 

[pmaitra]

.
Here look at the recoil. Remind of elephant gun kick.

Now consider the noise level and recoil with Galil Ace 308

Here is what I would expect for a good comparison:

• Fire both rifles either in an enclosed shooting range or in an outdoor shooting range.
• Fire both rifles from either prone or standing position, with the stock on the shoulder.
• Use the same ammunition with equal grain for both the rifles.

A proper comparison would try to keep all other factors equal that can be kept equal.

 

[Twinblade]

Recoil will always be there especially in the case of 7.62 ammunition, but this can be controlled to a certain extent. Introduction of a SHORT STROKE PISTON will not just make the weapon lighter but will also reduce its recoil, But then even SSP based weapon has short a coming i.e systems are prone to a condition called
“carrier tilt.” Since the force is being applied directly to the top of the bolt the bolt carrier has a tendency to tilt. The rear bottom edge and the front top edge exert more force on the surrounding materials due to that tilt, and it has been known to wear holes in the receiver extension (but its not very frequent and is acceptable if compared to the added benefits).

Now compare it to a LONG STROKE PISTON our weapon will be heavy coz of the piston, It will have a strong recoil thereby affecting the accuracy because after every round fired the complete Bolt Assembly moves back along with the piston.

Now for FN FAL system. I have fired this weapon and i can assure you that you cannot control it if your firing it on Burst mode, Thier was a reason why Indian SLRs did not have an auto mode ( accuracy problem in subsequent shots) FN FAL system is an old hat in the trade.

If I am to buy a new gen weapon which is to be given to the Indian Army for its utilization for coming 20 years i would want the following min requirements:
1. Monolithic bolt carrier
2. Adjustable gas port
3. Ambidextrous safety and Mag release
4. Reciprocating, reversible charging handle
5. Integrated optics

5.56 or 7.62 well thats on Top bosses to fight for.

PS : my personal favorite will be FN SCAR 17

Reciprocating handle is not a positive feature. A forward assist can be provided to help sort out jams.

 

[pmaitra]

Interesting read: Ask Foghorn: Short Stroke Versus Long Stroke Pistons

 

[Heavenshaker]

Reciprocating handle is not a positive feature. A forward assist can be provided to help sort out jams.

No hard and fast rule like that. It depends on design and situation and the overall concept. If it wasn't a 'positive' feature then highly qualified designers wouldn't bother with it.
Of course a forward assist is helpful but that can also have some problems. Check it out its an interesting read.

 

[tharun]

Why not HK 416 or 417 with front or side charging handle? that would be nice to see H&K in our arsenal.