New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Which Contender`s Rifle has more chances of winning than others?


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Kunal Biswas

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Your knowledge is limited here in this case, First few things you need to find is :

1. There are almost no records of AR-15 based design malfunction issues from south asia, Any issues occurred was recorded during Vietnam war, Nothing afterwards or the design evolved from earlier designs being used in this part of the world, Have some research on that or the historians you speak off..

2. Find out why AR-15 design inferior compare to the Kalashnikov designs or the firearm evolved or based on it ,,

3. Find why AR-15 design firearm maintenance is a headache and how much time it takes to strip it down compare to Kalashnikov designs / based ..

=====================

I am not trying to show its a bad design, Its a world class design if maintain properly, But certainly not good as AK designs which evolved i different regions for different militarizes ..

Well, I would be carefull. High unreliability of AR-15 system is mostly a myth as far as I know from guys that are seriously involved in small arms history. Obviously it have it's issues, but then again, it is not that bad as some try to show it.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Imho, INSAS is working fine and its design is tailor made for Indian solider, it must be upgraded within Private sector within the country ..

This ongoing import is a scam, And will be not good for Indian solider ..
 

The Fox

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If OFB comes with the New multi caliber Rifle a new model they should sell the Technology of INSAS to the local Private Players along with the Hand gun technology so that the private industry can develop and function well
 

Damian

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1. There are almost no records of AR-15 based design malfunction issues from south asia, Any issues occurred was recorded during Vietnam war, Nothing afterwards or the design evolved from earlier designs being used in this part of the world, Have some research on that or the historians you speak off..
AFAIK original problems with AR-15 comes from propelant charge. Originally AR-15 was designed for Dupont made prolenat charge, and gun worked good with it, however during tests, it become obvious that this propelant charge is vurnable to wet wheater conditions. It was then changed to standard propelant charge which was not suited for AR-15 and this is what caused most of malfunctions.

Problem was later solved.

2. Find out why AR-15 design inferior compare to the Kalashnikov designs or the firearm evolved or based on it ,,
Me and many small arms specialists see AR-15 as superior to Kalashnikov, and there is good reason for it. Eugene Stoner was infantrymen and he know better than Kalashnikov how to design good assault rifle for infantrymen. Kalashnikov was a tanker during war.

Besides this, in terms of overall design, all modern assault rifles are based on many AR-15 design solutions, the only difference is gas system, which is not based on Kalashnikov either way, as it is much older design.

3. Find why AR-15 design firearm maintenance is a headache and how much time it takes to strip it down compare to Kalashnikov designs / based ..
Headache? And no, it does not take much more time to field strip AR-15 than AK. There is many videos on YT, you can compare. In many terms AR-15 is actually simpler design.

I am not trying to show its a bad design, Its a world class design if maintain properly, But certainly not good as AK designs which evolved i different regions for different militarizes ..
This is probably why all modern AR's are based mostly on AR-15 design solutions eh? As I said, the only difference is gas system. AR-15 uses direct impingement, while most AR's use gas piston.

Besides this, you can discuss this with REMOV, he is known and respected expert on small arms.
 

Kunal Biswas

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You dont have Idea what was i referring to, Sorry but you do not ..

I already talked with REMOV, Unfortunately his Idea and Knowledge abt Indian firearms and problem western firearms operating here is zero ..

You can read his comment on MP.net at Indian Armed forces thread ..

AFAIK original problems with AR-15 comes from propelant charge. Originally AR-15 was designed for Dupont made prolenat charge, and gun worked good with it, however during tests, it become obvious that this propelant charge is vurnable to wet wheater conditions. It was then changed to standard propelant charge which was not suited for AR-15 and this is what caused most of malfunctions.

Problem was later solved.

Me and many small arms specialists see AR-15 as superior to Kalashnikov, and there is good reason for it. Eugene Stoner was infantrymen and he know better than Kalashnikov how to design good assault rifle for infantrymen. Kalashnikov was a tanker during war.

Headache? And no, it does not take much more time to field strip AR-15 than AK. There is many videos on YT, you can compare. In many terms AR-15 is actually simpler design.

This is probably why all modern AR's are based mostly on AR-15 design solutions eh? As I said, the only difference is gas system. AR-15 uses direct impingement, while most AR's use gas piston.

Besides this, you can discuss this with REMOV, he is known and respected expert on small arms.
 

arnabmit

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This is the civilian version which fires .22LR. I have fired .22, it hardly has any more recoil than an air rifle. 5.56 or 7.62 has much higher recoil.

check out it's recoil

 
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ghost

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This is the civilian version which fires .22LR. I have fired .22, it hardly has any more recoil than an air rifle. 5.56 or 7.62 has much higher recoil.
right said bro

check out 7.62 on full auto


5.56 on full auto

 
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Phantom

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It's really shameful that a Nation which can send probes to Mars is finding it difficult to arm it's troops with something as basic as indigenous Rifles(good ones, I mean). How is it that DRDO never gets the rap for such simple failures?

Or is it only because of lobbying and corruption that our indigenous designs fail to impress the Army? Going by the Insas though, the Army seems to be justified in being peeved at Desi Rifles.
 

Phantom

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@Kunal Biswas Will these new rifles be procured as part of the F-INSAS programme or is that a separate concern?
 
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Kunal Biswas

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They are not part of F-INSAS program, But just large scale procurement to replace present AR ..
 

ghost

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The on going tender is a scam, hope to see it fail and hope we use an upgraded INSAS instead ..

I don't get this attitude. I am all for indigenisation as long as the product is good in the name of indigenisation you should not vouch for no competition system.First of all you should get this that the present tender include full transfer of technology and after the intial 60000 all the rest of the lot would be produced in india.{isn't it indigenisation in it own self} you are producing arms in your own country in your own factory with full technology in ur hand what more can one ask for?national pride does not mean whatever we produce is good while whatever other do is bad.This attitude would do us no good if someone has done better than us we should appreciate it and should be ready to learn from them there is no loss of pride in learning from other's .

Now come to our favorite INSAS .If one look then there are civilians who had tried out insas and they don't seem too impress with it then their are army officer who do not like it very much then there is a whole lot that love this hardware.Now coming to you if i am correct you are in love with it.As u r in so much love with it and you are an end user of it so i believe you but then i have few doubts :

If i have to draw one conclusion with all the debate and personal experiences of insas studied by me it is that that it's a good rifle(1b1) but for long range and moreover traditional war (who,s day's are nearly over) because of it's fair enough accuracy but then it's not good for cqb.Here lies the problem i think it's about time we get one system which i good for long distance accuracy as well as cqb good in confined place as well as long open fields.there should be one assault rifle for all the jobs as no one knows when and where one would have to fight modern battle.

the insas which you are using is the latest version of it 1b1 but you forget that most of our forces is equipped with older version of insas which are riddeled with many problems.

If insas is such a great weapon then why other in the world are not going crazy about it why are they not going after tot of such a brilliant weapon system
.such a marvelous weapon system with such cheap price the whole world might have gone blind for not taking notice of it.See my point is good is appreciated all over the world (see the sucess of tavor and ak 100 series with various country opting for their tot transfer) if not than criticized all over the world.if one say's mine is best mine is best it does not become so when other says it than is ur system is truly the best.

tell me one another country except bhutan(that would use even tooth paste from india) which uses insas .in case of nepal{who were given insas almost free of cost} why did they changed to m16 clone.If insas is such a awesome system then why no single other country in this whole wide world is not opting for such a system are they fool?

Last what's the problem in the current tender beside other assault rifles drdo multi cal is also competing let's the best man win the race.in the end who ever win's indian army will be the winner they will get best system with full tot transfer and would be produced in the country.if are arde boy's are such brilliant let them improve over the technology they receive in this way i don't see any harm opting for foreign design.So stop making such hue and cry about indigenisation as far as this tender as full TOT would be there so there is no blockage on knowledge by far it will only help us to evolve our knowledge.

and one last thing first try other weapon system before you downgrade them in comparison to insas .
 
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ghost

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They are not part of F-INSAS program, But just large scale procurement to replace present AR ..
I beg to differ with you for the following reasons

COMMOM SENSE - by the time the current tender ends and assault rifle are procured it would be 3years and as per various reports f insas would be deployed within next 2 years .which means that by the time choosen assault rifle will be deployed fully in the army by that time f insas would also being deployed in the army.So you are trying to say that army will change it's assault rifle even before it is deployed fully or that half the army will carry one kind and other half different kind of assault rifle sound extremely funny and a logistical nightmare for any sane mind.


f insas itself - Check out the requirement of f insas assault rifle it require the assault rifle to be of multicalibre.therfp of the present tender of assault rifle state that it require them to be multicalibre and all the other reuirement in the rfp meets the requirement of f insas assault rifle.Too much to be coincidense.


drdo - As you all know that drdo own multical is also in the runnig ifor the present tender.so you mean to say that drdo would develop one more assault rifle for f insas but if you see f insas would be deployed within next 2 years and as we all know drdo would need atleast 5 years till it develop and trials any new weapon system so you mean to say that f insas would be deployed without a weapon system (quite funny)

various reports which mention the current tender of assault rifle clearly state that this is for f insas assault rifle.

for eg Livefist: Indian Army Scouts For F-INSAS Assault Rifle



at last i would say 1+1 do ur maths
 
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ghost

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AND TO ALL THOSE WHO THINK OF VARIOUS REASON FOR ARDE NOT BEING ABLE TO SATISFY ARMY DEMAND ONE ANS THEY LACK BRILLANCE IF YOU HAVE MIND AND PASSION YOU CAN DO BEST OF THING WITH MINIMAL OF EXPERIENCE.WANT TO SEE BRILLIANT SEE THIS STORY OF GLOCK MANUFACTURER .AND WHOEVER IS INTERESTED IN GUNS WOULD KNOW THE POSITION OF GLOCK.

History of GLOCK pistols

Although plenty was written about GLOCK pistols, even in Czech technical papers, only several articles describing origination of GLOCK guns were published. Therefore we provide this extract of article "GLOCK: Gun of the Future", published in GLOCK Autopistols magazine in 2002.

At the beginning of the year 1980 a lucky chance drove Gaston GLOCK, a successful businessman and polymer manufacturer, to the Austrian Ministry of Defense (MD). GLOCK supplied the army with combined trench tools, non-moldering machine gun belts and hand grenades at the time. Furthermore, his company produced public market wares (e.g. curtain shafts, drawer rods) and GLOCK had skills with traditional material production, gained during truck radiator manufacturing.

Within that fated MD visit G. GLOCK overheard a talk of two Austrian colonels, discussing the Army`s Request for Proposal (RFP) for new short firearm. Those officers criticized a 5 year long waiting time, during which Styer (and other gun manufacturers) tried to design a gun complying with the RFP; though, no one of these new guns suits strict demands of RFP. So, GLOCK asked the colonel whether they need a new gun or not. GLOCK received a positive answer with comment that the time is short: "We have to find someone, who is able to design and manufacture a firearm, which will meet our demands and passes our tests".

G. GLOCK, quite interested in this challenge, ask the officer whether GLOCK can join the tender. He also asked them about their idea of a new gun. After a short general discussion about RFP GLOCK estimated that it couldn't be so difficult. In his theory the gun presents a part of accoutrements, clipped on soldier's belt much like a knife (produced by GLOCK at that time). Officer informed him that his offer will be welcomed, but it must be prepared in very short time. Idea of opportune success of absolute gun constructer rookie - on a field mastered by world's top manufacturers - put the officer into spirits. Officer's impertinence boosted up GLOCK's decision so Gaston started the project immediately; but as it were a hobby for him.

In 1980 Gaston started to self-study by investigating construction and function of that time's best pistols. He never uses guns before. He bought Beretta 92, Sig Sauer P220, CZ75 and Walther P38 (standard Austrian army duty gun at that time) 9x19mm pistols. He striped them down and assembled again. Using this simple but tough method he assimilated their mechanical principles and manufacturing procedures, necessary for gun producing. The next step was a study on Austrian patent office; research in patents relating to short handguns helped him to know newest technologies and choose all suitable for his idea.

Austrian army informed GLOCK that he have to show serial production gun for tests, not a prototype. He has been told that pistol R&D takes three or four years. GLOCK answered that he can design completely new gun in fixed term.

Once GLOCK understood basics of weapon construction and technology, he realized that help of handgun expert is essential. So he arranged a meeting with three experts: Siegfried F. Hubner, Richard Silvestri and Friedrich Dechant. The meeting took place on 8. 5. 1980.

During this meeting GLOCK asked other men to tell, what would be their request for pistol of future, for long-term vision for 10 or more years. His guests outlined their idea of perfect pistol on two sheets of paper during the meeting, in the light of premise the gun will be used by military and security units. Regarding contemporary pistol`s imperfections (like accidental shots, failures, safety troubles, maintenance or expenses) they projected design of completely new gun.

First they defined demands like magazine capacity of 100 rounds and weight 2 oz. But, when they aimed on achievable goals, they designed following parameters of new gun: no external safety, lighter than 800 grams and maximal magazine capacity. Mr. Hubner and Mr. Silvestri prefers trigger resistance 1,5 kg; colonel Dechont declared it would be 2-3,5 kg. They demanded gun width 30-50 mm, trigger width 10 mm. The gun should be made of no more than 40 parts, placed in independent subgroups (e.g. trigger mechanism, safety set), which can be easily and quickly replaced by trained gunsmith. (To compare: GLOCK 17 is 30 mm wide, weights 703 grams including magazine and it is made of 34 parts.)

Furthermore, the barrel should be hammered in single manufacturing operation for higher accuracy. It should be able to safely shoot off 9x19 round of double load. Gun should not accidentally shoot in case of fall from 2 meters against metal desk, whatever part of pistol hits the desk. Pistol should be made of tin by stamping or embossing or it could be made of plastic. In either case it must be rust-resistant.

On the basis of his experiences with topical gun specimens GLOCK asked about optimal handle to frame angle. He was convinced that it must be possible to aim the handgun by instinct, to enable the user shooting the gun even in case of injury disallowing using of sights. G. GLOCK nailed together two items and conducted a specific experiment. He defined the question like this: You can aim any gun precisely with eyes open. But what is the right handle angle if you want to aim the gun with eyes closed? After tests and discussion whole group agreed that best angle is 22 degrees (this conclusion was revised later, so present GLOCK gun's handle angle is 21.5 degrees). During discussing the handle all experts requested for tapered magazine well for easier magazine insertion.

They also consulted dirt and weather resistance: the gun should be working correctly after contact with snow, ice, sand and dust. The gun must fire 10000 rounds with the most of 1 misfire per 1000 rounds.

Finally all three men signed and dated one sheet of paper with their suggestions and designs. By the way this document is held by GLOCK Company nowadays.

When the experts leaved later that evening, they hadn't realized that they vitally affected gun construction evolution. By contrast they were leaving with smiles on their faces, calling:"Now you have your list. We hope you are happy now. But we guess that you can't make it. It is impossible!"

G. GLOCK started to assemble all information he gathered: from expert's list, patent researches and own studies of purchased guns. To verify external safety problem he carried Walther for two weeks; he found out that he is never sure if the guns is locked or not. Because of this doubts the safety appears to be a handicap for quick gun control.

The next step was making of drawings. GLOCK made them as simple as possible, because he handed them over to his engineer Reinhold Hirschheiter every morning and expected him to finish the work in his working hours same day, so GLOCK can test the product the very same evening. GLOCK tested all the guns by himself in his cellar. He held the gun in left hand, because he wanted to shield his right hand in case of accident. Once he found out what is working and what is not, he discarded bad drawing and prototypes and started again the next day. It is interesting that four of his prototypes still exist, but no of the drawing survived.

GLOCK applied for a patent for his new gun on 30. 4. 1981. This proves that his theories were right and efforts were successful.

Gaston GLOCK decided to produce short handgun with polymer body and automatic control less safeties. He wanted a gun corresponding with philosophy - to have everything simple, plain and clean. The development took him 18 months. Finally he sent his gun to Austrian army on 19. 5. 1982. When they asked GLOCK later how he could remember this date so precisely, he answered:"Because I worked on it for two years, whole days and nights, to deliver my sample in time."

18 GLOCK pistols then passed all military tests successfully. The Army finally has a gun which satisfies almost all its requirements. Thu gun should have two internal safeties instead of one. In addition the army demanded firing pin safety. This safety should protect the cartridge from initiating in case of broken firing pin or slide damage.

For additional military test in 1983 the gun included all three safeties. In consequence the Austrian army ordered 25000 GLOCK pistols; another big order from Norwegian army came shortly after. The GLOCK pistol came true. .
 
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badra100

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From what I could gather they use I guess a combination of the Belgian FN FAL, and the indian version of an AK-47 called trichy assualt rifle. They do have a large collection of weapons originating from western europe to Israel, those seem like the two primary choices.
 

Twinblade

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From what I could gather they use I guess a combination of the Belgian FN FAL, and the indian version of an AK-47 called trichy assualt rifle. They do have a large collection of weapons originating from western europe to Israel, those seem like the two primary choices.
What ?

123456
 

sayareakd

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@ghost you have gone through discussion on INSAS thread ?? if not please go through it and then ask any question. Their is no point in asking duplicate questions which has been answered number of times.
If Kunal sir trust his life with INSAS, then it says lot about the rifle.
 
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