New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Kunal Biswas]

You really don't much about 'fire arms '.. do you? ..

For a professional, it takes months to understand a rifle Under rain / snow / desert for 24x7x365 or more, without much maintenance and still work when press the trigger, INSAS does that, Frankly its a very Solider friendly Rifle, Even beats TAR-21 in field maintenance timing, Issuing new design also has hidden technical issue so does new training and its a mess, Of course you dont know as you are not a Uniform personal also to add ' Civilians' did not go through the same process like people in Army do, hence Civilians dont have ability to judge any Assault rifle ..



I dont believe you and many understand the meaning of ' Indigenous ', People merely quoting Media terminology.
Indigenous means ' Made & Design In India ' >>

1. Made in India > Made out of Indian raw material ..
2. Design in India > Design as per requirement and freedom of making modifications without third party influence ..

This not about your knowledge but others also ..


About INSAS and people in Army not happy with it suggest, Read and Learn >

Now as talking abt tactics with respect to hardware, You lack the understanding that INSAS is not a Carbine, And INSAS are used in CQB ..

As for the comment ' Degrading INSAS level ' I can only say, Don't talk about things you know **** about ..

I don't get this attitude. I am all for indigenisation as long as the product is good in the name of indigenisation you should not vouch for no competition system.First of all you should get this that the present tender include full transfer of technology and after the intial 60000 all the rest of the lot would be produced in india.{isn't it indigenisation in it own self} you are producing arms in your own country in your own factory with full technology in ur hand what more can one ask for?national pride does not mean whatever we produce is good while whatever other do is bad.This attitude would do us no good if someone has done better than us we should appreciate it and should be ready to learn from them there is no loss of pride in learning from other's .

Now come to our favorite INSAS .If one look then there are civilians who had tried out insas and they don't seem too impress with it then their are army officer who do not like it very much then there is a whole lot that love this hardware.Now coming to you if i am correct you are in love with it.As u r in so much love with it and you are an end user of it so i believe you but then i have few doubts :

If i have to draw one conclusion with all the debate and personal experiences of insas studied by me it is that that it's a good rifle(1b1) but for long range and moreover traditional war (who,s day's are nearly over) because of it's fair enough accuracy but then it's not good for cqb.Here lies the problem i think it's about time we get one system which i good for long distance accuracy as well as cqb good in confined place as well as long open fields.there should be one assault rifle for all the jobs as no one knows when and where one would have to fight modern battle.

the insas which you are using is the latest version of it 1b1 but you forget that most of our forces is equipped with older version of insas which are riddeled with many problems.

If insas is such a great weapon then why other in the world are not going crazy about it why are they not going after tot of such a brilliant weapon system
.such a marvelous weapon system with such cheap price the whole world might have gone blind for not taking notice of it.See my point is good is appreciated all over the world (see the sucess of tavor and ak 100 series with various country opting for their tot transfer) if not than criticized all over the world.if one say's mine is best mine is best it does not become so when other says it than is ur system is truly the best.

tell me one another country except bhutan(that would use even tooth paste from india) which uses insas .in case of nepal{who were given insas almost free of cost} why did they changed to m16 clone.If insas is such a awesome system then why no single other country in this whole wide world is not opting for such a system are they fool?

Last what's the problem in the current tender beside other assault rifles drdo multi cal is also competing let's the best man win the race.in the end who ever win's indian army will be the winner they will get best system with full tot transfer and would be produced in the country.if are arde boy's are such brilliant let them improve over the technology they receive in this way i don't see any harm opting for foreign design.So stop making such hue and cry about indigenisation as far as this tender as full TOT would be there so there is no blockage on knowledge by far it will only help us to evolve our knowledge.

and one last thing first try other weapon system before you downgrade them in comparison to insas .

I beg to differ with you for the following reasons

COMMOM SENSE - by the time the current tender ends and assault rifle are procured it would be 3years and as per various reports f insas would be deployed within next 2 years .which means that by the time choosen assault rifle will be deployed fully in the army by that time f insas would also being deployed in the army.So you are trying to say that army will change it's assault rifle even before it is deployed fully or that half the army will carry one kind and other half different kind of assault rifle sound extremely funny and a logistical nightmare for any sane mind.


f insas itself - Check out the requirement of f insas assault rifle it require the assault rifle to be of multicalibre.therfp of the present tender of assault rifle state that it require them to be multicalibre and all the other reuirement in the rfp meets the requirement of f insas assault rifle.Too much to be coincidense.


drdo - As you all know that drdo own multical is also in the runnig ifor the present tender.so you mean to say that drdo would develop one more assault rifle for f insas but if you see f insas would be deployed within next 2 years and as we all know drdo would need atleast 5 years till it develop and trials any new weapon system so you mean to say that f insas would be deployed without a weapon system (quite funny)

various reports which mention the current tender of assault rifle clearly state that this is for f insas assault rifle.

for eg Livefist: Indian Army Scouts For F-INSAS Assault Rifle

at last i would say 1+1 do ur maths

 

[ghost]

You really don't much about 'fire arms '.. do you? ..

For a professional, it takes months to understand a rifle Under rain / snow / desert for 24x7x365 or more, without much maintenance and still work when press the trigger, INSAS does that, Frankly its a very Solider friendly Rifle, Even beats TAR-21 in field maintenance timing, Issuing new design also has hidden technical issue so does new training and its a mess, Of course you dont know as you are not a Uniform personal also to add ' Civilians' did not go through the same process like people in Army do, hence Civilians dont have ability to judge any Assault rifle ..






I dont believe you and many understand the meaning of ' Indigenous ', People merely quoting Media terminology.
Indigenous means ' Made & Design In India ' >>

1. Made in India > Made out of Indian raw material ..
2. Design in India > Design as per requirement and freedom of making modifications without third party influence ..

This not about your knowledge but others also ..


About INSAS and people in Army not happy with it suggest, Read and Learn >

Now as talking abt tactics with respect to hardware, You lack the understanding that INSAS is not a Carbine, And INSAS are used in CQB ..

As for the comment ' Degrading INSAS level ' I can only say, Don't talk about things you know **** about ..

i know nothing at all but i do read and learn from those who know any ways where had i claimed that mine are an expert opinon i just express my opinon what i feel you can agree or disagree.

second i said it is indegenisation in it own self which means as good as indeginisation not indegenisation in itself.If you can read .And you know what don,t give me this hypocrisy if i had said that tejas is not indegenous you would have pounced upon me for saying so but tell you what i believe it to be indegenious but by you'r own defination it is not.

third if you have read my opinon i had said that insas is good rifle ( and this i have not claimed as an expert but as a result of " study "of various personal opinon of it's user exprert opinon and discussion) if you can read and by mistake i do know the difference between carbine and assault rifle but i also know that in iraq war us soldiers used to opt for ak with folded butt for cqb than m16 as they learnt that ak is good for cqb same reason israeli opt for tavor to replace m16.

Defence minister AK Antony told Rajya the Sabha that the project to replace the 5.56mm INSAS rifles was underway since "technological development has created more superior rifles over the years".

now go and argue with Mr AK Antony

i have never said i have anything against indian product infact i am proud of lch,dhruv,tejas and many other.....oops (i had to be pilot in airforce to say so please forgive me as you know we civilan's are stupid ) i only said i am against single vendor let their be competition may best win let there be race and i have also mentioned that drdo multi cal is also in race if it is good it will win.(foolish of me to say so as per you even if us with most of the arms companies have a competiton where companies from all over the world you say foolish of them.)

it was not me who told army to adopt tar 21 over insas bullpup and it was not me to tell paratrooper's to say that they are in love with tar 21.and if it had been you you would have made such hue and cry about it (what the need to convert it scam scam scam) i know ur ans coz i have studied you you would say it's because para troop want more compact weapon but my friend vz 58 length with stock folded is 636mm where as tar 21 length is 720mm .(and tell you what vz 58 is my personal favourate but still i don't see any harm in army replacing them if they need to.(any way why would they need to mr) as long it bring smile to a soldier and they would say that they love the weapon in comparision with the older one.

as you are such a expert please tell me which weapon would be selected in the ongoing trials and which weapon will fail the trial as you are know it all expert please enlighten me with the result's as this must be child play for you.

and remember my grandfather is retired army officer and in my extended family in neighbour i have enough of army personael i very well know that so called attitude of certain army officer that look down upon civillain (like you) but not all of them .the one who had designed insas would himself be a civillian and as you have read(if not please do read) about glock it would clearly show what civillan can do.

THE CURRENT TENDER IS FOR F INSAS ASSAULT RIFLE AS I HAVE GIVEN THE REASON AS PER YOU IF THEY ARE NOT PROVE ME WRONG .

AND LAST dont give me attitude cause i have enough of my own .I very well understand if i had praised insas you would have not raised even a iota of question on my expertise instead you would have applauded me but one question on it and you are all over me very well expected from you.

 

[ghost]

Don't talk about things you know **** about ..

you claim that ongoing tender is a scam if so then prove it bring the witness bring the proof and present it to supreme court do anything to stop this scam coz if you know it's a scam but you are not stopping it you urself are as good as part of scam.and if you can't prove it as a scam then please follow (Don't talk about things you know **** about .. ) as you preach

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its still does not change anything what i have said before ..


======================

Its still a bloody scam ..

New York: The CBI is examining documents that cast a shadow over one of the army's biggest contracts - a deal to replace 64,000 INSAS assault rifles that's worth a billion dollars or Rs. 5.5 crores.

Among the five contenders is US arms manufacturer Sig Sauer, which used to be represented in India by Anca Neacsu, who is in jail along with her husband, controversial arms dealer Abhishek Verma.

The bribe was, according to the CBI, intended to ensure that the "VIP" removed from government records an anonymous complaint about Sig Sauer filed in the context of another contract, which could have led in the company being blacklisted and eliminated from consideration for the billion dollar INSAS assault rifles deal, for which it is now in the running.

The other player in the fray, Bhupinder, 64, is quieter and flies below the radar. Known as 'Tusky' in arms circles for his buck teeth, the nickname is a legacy of his days at Lawrence School Sanawar.A burly 6'3" clean-shaven Sikh, he lives in an opulent bungalow in South Delhi's Vasant Vihar. The son-in-law of a retired Army general, he represents Italian gunmaker Beretta.A keen golfer, he can be seen teeing off at the Delhi Golf Club and Army Golf Club.

Around 2009, Bhupinder took over as Italian weapon-maker Beretta's representative in India. "We have been working with Beretta officially for three years," he told INDIA TODAY. "There can be no hanky-panky when we deal with the home and defence ministries." His son Udai Singh, however, says they have applied for, but are yet to get, rbi permission to set up an office in India.Tusky and Udai Singh were the only arms agents present on all four days of the Border Security Force (BSF)'s weapon trials held between May 17 and 20 at their facility in Bhondsi, Uttar Pradesh. Officials present at the trials remember Bhupinder plying BSF officials with beer and soft drinks during the trials. On February 14, 2011, Delhi's defence circles sat up and took notice of him. Beretta signed the mha contract worth over Rs.200 crore for 34,377 carbines. Tusky was now in the big league of arms dealers such as Suresh Nanda, named by CBI as an agent in the Barak missile deal, and Mohinder Singh Sahni, also named by CBI as the agent in the Krasnopol guided munitions case.

The Army's tender has already been dogged by allegations that it had been fixed to favour Beretta. Two of the world's biggest rifle manufacturers, Belgium's FN Herstal and Germany's Heckler and Koch, did not participate in the contract bid in 2011 because they were not confident of winning.

SIG has dropped Verma and Neacsu from their India business and is competing in the Army contract, for which trials will be held soon. Verma's removal from the scene means the competition for the world's largest gun contract has shrunk to just one important player.

Source : ndian Army at the mercy of shadowy arms dealers, lobbyists : The Big Story - India Today
Source : Multi-crore arms deals: videos of Home Ministry, alleged kickbacks | NDTV.com


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Learn you say, Nice thing .. Lean it well !

Until then like i said, ' Don't talk about things you know **** about .. ' ..

Don't take it in a harsh way, Just saying ..

i know nothing at all but i do read and learn from those who know any ways where had i claimed that mine are an expert opinon i just express my opinon what i feel you can agree or disagree.

second i said it is indegenisation in it own self which means as good as indeginisation not indegenisation in itself.If you can read .And you know what don,t give me this hypocrisy if i had said that tejas is not indegenous you would have pounced upon me for saying so but tell you what i believe it to be indegenious but by you'r own defination it is not.

third if you have read my opinon i had said that insas is good rifle ( and this i have not claimed as an expert but as a result of " study "of various personal opinon of it's user exprert opinon and discussion) if you can read and by mistake i do know the difference between carbine and assault rifle but i also know that in iraq war us soldiers used to opt for ak with folded butt for cqb than m16 as they learnt that ak is good for cqb same reason israeli opt for tavor to replace m16.

Defence minister AK Antony told Rajya the Sabha that the project to replace the 5.56mm INSAS rifles was underway since "technological development has created more superior rifles over the years".

now go and argue with Mr AK Antony

i have never said i have anything against indian product infact i am proud of lch,dhruv,tejas and many other.....oops (i had to be pilot in airforce to say so please forgive me as you know we civilan's are stupid ) i only said i am against single vendor let their be competition may best win let there be race and i have also mentioned that drdo multi cal is also in race if it is good it will win.(foolish of me to say so as per you even if us with most of the arms companies have a competiton where companies from all over the world you say foolish of them.)

it was not me who told army to adopt tar 21 over insas bullpup and it was not me to tell paratrooper's to say that they are in love with tar 21.and if it had been you you would have made such hue and cry about it (what the need to convert it scam scam scam) i know ur ans coz i have studied you you would say it's because para troop want more compact weapon but my friend vz 58 length with stock folded is 636mm where as tar 21 length is 720mm .(and tell you what vz 58 is my personal favourate but still i don't see any harm in army replacing them if they need to.(any way why would they need to mr) as long it bring smile to a soldier and they would say that they love the weapon in comparision with the older one.

as you are such a expert please tell me which weapon would be selected in the ongoing trials and which weapon will fail the trial as you are know it all expert please enlighten me with the result's as this must be child play for you.

and remember my grandfather is retired army officer and in my extended family in neighbour i have enough of army personael i very well know that so called attitude of certain army officer that look down upon civillain (like you) but not all of them .the one who had designed insas would himself be a civillian and as you have read(if not please do read) about glock it would clearly show what civillan can do.

THE CURRENT TENDER IS FOR F INSAS ASSAULT RIFLE AS I HAVE GIVEN THE REASON AS PER YOU IF THEY ARE NOT PROVE ME WRONG .

AND LAST dont give me attitude cause i have enough of my own .I very well understand if i had praised insas you would have not raised even a iota of question on my expertise instead you would have applauded me but one question on it and you are all over me very well expected from you.

Don't talk about things you know **** about ..

you claim that ongoing tender is a scam if so then prove it bring the witness bring the proof and present it to supreme court do anything to stop this scam coz if you know it's a scam but you are not stopping it you urself are as good as part of scam.and if you can't prove it as a scam then please follow (Don't talk about things you know **** about .. ) as you preach

 

[sayareakd]

Don't talk about things you know **** about ..

you claim that ongoing tender is a scam if so then prove it bring the witness bring the proof and present it to supreme court do anything to stop this scam coz if you know it's a scam but you are not stopping it you urself are as good as part of scam.and if you can't prove it as a scam then please follow (Don't talk about things you know **** about .. ) as you preach

@ghost if you read everything about INSAS only then comment about it.

 

[ghost]

@<a href="http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/member.php?u=14020" target="_blank">ghost</a> if you read everything about INSAS only then comment about it.

i have read all about insas here and everywhere else which have helped me to form my opinon.And what wrong have i said i said it's a good rifle for traditional battlefield but not opt for cqb and modern scenario which we are facing and see even general vk singh is saying so.



have you gone through this review http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9131 .now i know you will say it's an old version of insas but then if you have read my earlier post if would say "majority of our army is equipped with it".

 

[ghost]

Its still does not change anything what i have said before ..


======================

Its still a bloody scam ..

Source : ndian Army at the mercy of shadowy arms dealers, lobbyists : The Big Story - India Today
Source : Multi-crore arms deals: videos of Home Ministry, alleged kickbacks | NDTV.com


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Learn you say, Nice thing .. Lean it well !

Until then like i said, ' Don't talk about things you know **** about .. ' ..

Don't take it in a harsh way, Just saying ..

please watch out what you say else you are turning out to be a "hypocrate" here you are quoting media reports the same media reports you bash and term crap when they carry article about insas.so this attitude of pick and choose as per ur convenience is not correct.

as i have said honorable general is saying the same thing which i have said multicalibre will give us the option of 7.62 and 5.56 as per requirement on same platform.

as from my above post you have left few things as per ur convenience i would again like to place them

Defence minister AK Antony told Rajya Sabha that the project to replace the 5.56mm INSAS rifles was underway since "technological development has created more superior rifles over the years"

this must have been told to him by army general so according to you both of them are fool or both of them are corrupt.
i had to repeat
"THE CURRENT TENDER IS FOR F INSAS ASSAULT RIFLE AS I HAVE GIVEN THE REASON AS PER YOU IF THEY ARE NOT PROVE ME WRONG ".

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You are not a good learner .. Don't you ?

Can`t even read things you are provided..

i have read all about insas here and everywhere else which have helped me to form my opinon.And what wrong have i said i said it's a good rifle for traditional battlefield but not opt for cqb and modern scenario which we are facing and see even general vk singh is saying so.



have you gone through this review Indians For Guns "¢ View topic - The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise .now i know you will say it's an old version of insas but then if you have read my earlier post if would say "majority of our army is equipped with it".

please watch out what you say else you are turning out to be a "hypocrate" here you are quoting media reports the same media reports you bash and term crap when they carry article about insas.so this attitude of pick and choose as per ur convenience is not correct.

as i have said honorable general is saying the same thing which i have said multicalibre will give us the option of 7.62 and 5.56 as per requirement on same platform.

as from my above post you have left few things as per ur convenience i would again like to place them

Defence minister AK Antony told Rajya Sabha that the project to replace the 5.56mm INSAS rifles was underway since "technological development has created more superior rifles over the years"

this must have been told to him by army general so according to you both of them are fool or both of them are corrupt.
i had to repeat".

 

[TrueSpirit1]

@ghost

AFAIK, indigenization is relative term (not an absolute one) & in today's technology-realm, it would be virtually impossible (also, unwieldy & impractical) for major weapon-systems to be completely indigenous, for obvious reasons. Our forces' chief's always mention indigenization in a particular system as a %, like 40% or 70% indigenous.

For LCA, the lion's share of design-work was done in ADA labs (from scratch), with minor (not even half-way) consulting expertise sought from US aviation majors, who left quite early when US slapped sanctions on us, in wake of Pokhran-II tests. So, there are compelling reasons for calling LCA largely indigenous. However, the MMR, engine, AAM's etc. are obviously imported & this would remain so for foreseeable feature.

Right, @Kunal Biswas ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@TrueSpirit1, You are right but regarding this topic i am interested in @ghost views ..

 

[ghost]

@ghost

AFAIK, indigenization is relative term (not an absolute one) & in today's technology-realm, it would be virtually impossible (also, unwieldy & impractical) for major weapon-systems to be completely indigenous, for obvious reasons. Our forces' chief's always mention indigenization in a particular system as a %, like 40% or 70% indigenous.

For LCA, the lion's share of design-work was done in ADA labs (from scratch), with minor (not even half-way) consulting expertise sought from US aviation majors, who left quite early when US slapped sanctions on us, in wake of Pokhran-II tests. So, there are compelling reasons for calling LCA largely indigenous. However, the MMR, engine, AAM's etc. are obviously imported & this would remain so for foreseeable feature.

Right, @Kunal Biswas ?

when have i said anything about lca not being indegenous it was @Kunal Biswas who said that all the design should be from the country all the material should be from the country .i just gave him example of these products and said that they are indegenious even when all their component is not from the country.i agree with whatever you have said i have same thoughts about it.

 

[ghost]

You are not a good learner .. Don't you ?

Can`t even read things you are provided..

and you can't even ans what you are asked any specifically what is being asked

=======================

Mod note >

Read again #573, #576 ..

Kunal Biswas

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@ghost, don`t you know abt 5.56mm variations ?

 

[ghost]

and please do reply about f insas rifle procurement question i have asked this no of times prove me wrong with reason

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Go back again and learn to see and Read ..

i know where yopu are going now you will say that ofb make 5.56 is more dense hense more potent here i would agree with you but then tell me why this tender is taking place and dont say corruption because this tender is given priority 1 status by none other than by army chief .

please watch out what you say else you are turning out to be a "hypocrate" here you are quoting media reports the same media reports you bash and term crap when they carry article about insas.so this attitude of pick and choose as per ur convenience is not correct.

as i have said honorable general is saying the same thing which i have said multicalibre will give us the option of 7.62 and 5.56 as per requirement on same platform.

as from my above post you have left few things as per ur convenience i would again like to place them

Defence minister AK Antony told Rajya Sabha that the project to replace the 5.56mm INSAS rifles was underway since "technological development has created more superior rifles over the years"

this must have been told to him by army general so according to you both of them are fool or both of them are corrupt.
i had to repeat
"THE CURRENT TENDER IS FOR F INSAS ASSAULT RIFLE AS I HAVE GIVEN THE REASON AS PER YOU IF THEY ARE NOT PROVE ME WRONG ".

Its still does not change anything what i have said before ..


======================

Its still a bloody scam ..

Source : ndian Army at the mercy of shadowy arms dealers, lobbyists : The Big Story - India Today
Source : Multi-crore arms deals: videos of Home Ministry, alleged kickbacks | NDTV.com


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=================
=================


Learn you say, Nice thing .. Lean it well !

Until then like i said, ' Don't talk about things you know **** about .. ' ..

Don't take it in a harsh way, Just saying ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

F-INSAS is a DRDO project under supervision of Army, This includes Rifle, Suit and electronics design and made by DRDO in collaboration with foreign firms ..

Where as this tender has nothing to do with F-INSAS project in which DRDO is involve, Rather completely different acquisition involving Pvt HMT ..

-------------------

Like i said, ' Don't talk about things you know **** about .. ' Go back to basic ..

 

[ghost]

I beg to differ with you for the following reasons

COMMOM SENSE - by the time the current tender ends and assault rifle are procured it would be 3years and as per various reports f insas would be deployed within next 2 years .which means that by the time choosen assault rifle will be deployed fully in the army by that time f insas would also being deployed in the army.So you are trying to say that army will change it's assault rifle even before it is deployed fully or that half the army will carry one kind and other half different kind of assault rifle sound extremely funny and a logistical nightmare for any sane mind.


f insas itself - Check out the requirement of f insas assault rifle it require the assault rifle to be of multicalibre.therfp of the present tender of assault rifle state that it require them to be multicalibre and all the other reuirement in the rfp meets the requirement of f insas assault rifle.Too much to be coincidense.


drdo - As you all know that drdo own multical is also in the runnig ifor the present tender.so you mean to say that drdo would develop one more assault rifle for f insas but if you see f insas would be deployed within next 2 years and as we all know drdo would need atleast 5 years till it develop and trials any new weapon system so you mean to say that f insas would be deployed without a weapon system (quite funny)

various reports which mention the current tender of assault rifle clearly state that this is for f insas assault rifle.

for eg Livefist: Indian Army Scouts For F-INSAS Assault Rifle



at last i would say 1+1 do ur maths

please enlighten me........................http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/members/kunal+biswas.html

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its sound more of a conspiracy theory added by coincidence in your own guess work, No or whatsoever solid link is between DRDO & OFB`s F-INSAS project with this tender ..

What you have presented is not worth re-butt, To be frank...

please enlighten me........................http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/members/kunal+biswas.html

 

[ghost]

Its sound more of a conspiracy theory added by coincidence, No or whatsoever link between DRDO & OFB`s F-INSAS project with this tender ..

What you have presented is not worth re-butt, To be frank...

you are doing every thing except giving point by point re butt don't have the ans

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You did not make any points, Let me give you a hint !

From where ARDE 6.8mm came from ? You are a good learner ? Don't you ..

you are doing every thing except giving point by point re butt don't have the ans