New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Aditya Ballal]

Stamped sheet receiver only , russians have long stopped manufacturing milled receiver AKs.

On the other side we have OFB Trichy that's practically copy of bulgarian milled receiver AKs; so yeah.

Which process is more advantageous?

 

[Johny_Baba]

Which process is more advantageous?

both have their own merits and demerits,

milled receivers are generally more sturdy and makes an AK balance sligthly more well due to proper weight distribution so muzzle climb on it is somewhat easier to control,
but since every receiver is made by cutting off material off a solid block (i.e. 'milling') it requires more material, a proper manufacturing fab unit with all these machines and trained labour for that,
hence it's costlier,
also milled receiver are hard to modify too once they are done, so god forbid if you need to drill out holes to affix new things or something like that...
BUT if done properly you could expect some of the best kwality build a weapon could get,
^AR is a milled receiver design

now stamped receiver design hhmm it's basically process of using milled parts only where required i.e. front and rear parts where other things are affixed on the rifle rest ;body; is made from specifically folding metal sheets in shapes using pressing machines (i.e. 'stamping machines'),
this is a cost-effective solution of making machine bodies as material required is less, manufacturing could also be made faster and trained labour required is also lesser, and modifying a stamped receiver is easier, a normal repair shop level tools are enough,
disadvantage though is as expected, weight distribution here is not so good and sometimes, low QA of the manufacturing could potentially result in average kwality builds with mismatch in shape etc,
^AK of the current era are mostly stamped sheet receiver design

NOW some historical thing,
very first AK-47 was a stamped sheet metal receiver design but Soviets had issues in mass manufacturing it, rejection ratio of the receiver made using ww2 era stamping procedures they followed was quite high for this type of automatic rifle,
they had to go back to milled receiver designs in 1950s to at least keep continuing making those rifles while they initially brought german POWs like Surmgewehr fame Hugo Schmeisser and some others to improvise their stamped metal manufacturing processes etc, Schmeisser later went back and died in 1953, it took them about 5 more years to finally improvise-standardise stamped sheet receiver manufacturing of the AKs and hence came AKM
^This is also related to general perception that AKs are easy to manufacture blah blah...it took Russians themselves about a decade to properly make a stamped receiver AK that often required a factory to first build different parts and then assembling it all together,
while they were able to make milled receiver AKs without much issues using whatever they were having back then, just that it costed more etc...
...
so stamped receiver AK mass manufacturing only becomes cheaper IF one is ready to invest in a manufacturing facilities of the parts for that, OR able to source ready made parts for assembling it all together, and then there also remains an issue of maintaining quality of the builds...

 

[FalconSlayers]

How many AK-203 we are finally planning?
First it was 7.5L, then it became 6.5L and now reports indicate 5L.

It seems that numbers are continiously reducing. Does this indicate CAPFs is not on board with this deal and would rather prefer TARs? Or it may be the case that Army itself wants more Sig-716s for its Iinfantry rather than AK-203?

It means that 5 lakh will be produced here rest will be imported.

 

[FalconSlayers]

How many AK-203 we are finally planning?
First it was 7.5L, then it became 6.5L and now reports indicate 5L.

It seems that numbers are continiously reducing. Does this indicate CAPFs is not on board with this deal and would rather prefer TARs? Or it may be the case that Army itself wants more Sig-716s for its Iinfantry rather than AK-203?

It means that 5 lakh will be produced here rest will be imported.

Okay so total Assault Rifles to be locally produced here are 6,01,427.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

I my opinion, I have been constantly saying this, since coming to this forum, AK-203 is the better and cheaper option to replace the shitty insas for our basic infantry, but in the mean time, our firearms sector needs to improve significantly, so much so in 10 years, we must be self sufficient and gain as much as ToT as possible!!

 

[Hari Sud]

I my opinion, I have been constantly saying this, since coming to this forum, AK-203 is the better and cheaper option to replace the shitty insas for our basic infantry, but in the mean time, our firearms sector needs to improve significantly, so much so in 10 years, we must be self sufficient and gain as much as ToT as possible!!

No rifle is perfect. The American M-16 went thru its evolution from 1956 till about 1975. It jammed and several modifications like plunger to clear the jam were invented but did not work. It was development work after Vietnam war that improved it. Same or similar story for AK series of rifle. .......

After Sri Lanka operation, it was realized that FAL rifle although the best in 1960s is no match to Ak-47 rifle. The big mistake was to go for smaller caliber INSAS. It was American influence of smaller caliber and three round burst was incorporated into it. Because defense industry in India is government owned. hence the bureaucrats could not implement improvements properly. Now comes the The Indian Army colonial mindset that insisted on everything Indian is bad bad everything imported is good. This mind set still around forced India into imports. Then the import lobby heighted minor defects and amplified cry for imports. No rifle is perfect but import lobby prevailed. They did not win totally because these are government to government deals hence them carrying away fat contracts vanished. Once again I say stop foul mouthing INSAS. It is a bureaucratic mess which prevented improvements unlike M-16. But now INSAS is a history.

 

[Johny_Baba]

I my opinion, I have been constantly saying this, since coming to this forum, AK-203 is the better and cheaper option to replace the shitty insas for our basic infantry, but in the mean time, our firearms sector needs to improve significantly, so much so in 10 years, we must be self sufficient and gain as much as ToT as possible!!

reminder this is AK-12, and pics were taken in March,2021 by russian defense journo Alexander Sladkov

Russia's current issue AK-12 itself is facing such QA issues at this very early stage of induction, cracking in furniture and even metal parts, rusting of muzzle, gas piston...who knows what lies in future,
...
and we are bringing their Tech here for AK-203,
and as if it wasn't enough whole production is going to be done by OFB//Successor

BTW after these pics came out, russians slyly blamed everything on 'recruits who didn't follow standard handling practices'...like yeah a country where even a school going bachcha is given basic disassembly training on AK and their baap daadaa have been using it since 70+ years is now suddently facing such issues...totally believable, not related to manufacturing me ghaplaa at all, yes

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I personally believe with this political deal we are stuck between a rock and a hard place now,
pulling the plug means angering ruskie katyusha that would also fuck up other things, also all that chunaavi promise to people of Amethi about giving them jobz etc etc...

keeping continuing it means at best getting same AK (with rails now) that we've been using here,

or at worst, seeing minor-major issues like shown above on them because now two devils are involved in this project together,both having their own track records regd various things

meanwhile desi firearms get shoahed for nothing...

Hope in events of AK-203 showing QA issues here, if it happens, nobody blames troops here this time with too much oil daal diya or sahi tareeke se khola-joda nahi or what not...

Edit - However i forgot to mention it,
one major factor behind this deal was to bring standardisation among plethora of different AKs being used here, with one factory-standard AK that's got all elementary stuff (talking about rails and so) here,
but again, if that was also a goal then how come we could not achieve same thing here with our own AKs is a question, don't say OFB doesn't make railed AKs here they perfectly are capable of doing so as visible in their current iterations of various INSAS based rifles, it was just not done due to certain ;reasons;

 

[FalconSlayers]

 

[WolfPack86]

India, Russia sign AK-203 rifle deal worth Rs 5,000 crore; extends military cooperation till 2031
New Delhi, December 6

India is faced with challenges arising out of “extraordinary militarisation” in its neighbourhood and “completely unprovoked aggression” on the northern border, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh said at the inaugural Indo-Russia ‘2+2’ dialogue even as the two nations inked a pact for joint production of over six lakh AK-203 rifles and extended military cooperation till 2031.

Besides Singh, the ‘2+2’ foreign and defence talks were attended by External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov and Russian Defence Minister Gen Sergey Shoigu. The ministers held comprehensive discussion on strategically important bilateral and regional issues.

Ahead of the ‘2+2’ talks, Rajnath and Shoigu co-chaired a meeting of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military and Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-M&MTC) during which the two sides inked the agreement for joint production of over six lakh AK-203 assault rifles at a manufacturing facility in Uttar Pradesh’s Amethi and extended the pact on military cooperation for 10 years (2021-31).

The rifles will be manufactured for the Indian armed forces at a cost of around Rs 5000 crore. The 10 year pact on military cooperation is a renewal of an existing framework.

“The pandemic, the extra-ordinary militarisation and expansion of armament in our neighbourhood and the completely unprovoked aggression on our northern border since early summer of 2020 have thrown in several challenges,” Singh said without naming China.

At the same time, he said India is confident of overcoming these challenges with the strong political will and inherent capability of its people.

“Recognising that its development needs are colossal and that its defence challenges are legitimate, real and immediate, India seeks partners who are sensitive and responsive to India’s expectations and requirements,” the defence minister said.

Singh also hoped that Russia will remain a major partner for India in these “changing circumstances”.

“From the Ministry of Defence we have urged for greater military-technical collaboration, advanced research, co-development and co-production of defence equipment leading to the self-reliance of India,” Singh said.

“Separately, we proposed greater engagements in Central Asia and the Indian Ocean region. India is a continuation of the vast Eurasian landmass and at the same time central in the enormous Indian Ocean region,” he said.

“We are optimistic about Russia’s cooperation in all the domains,” he added.

India, Russia sign AK-203 rifle deal worth Rs 5,000 crore; extends military cooperation till 2031

India is faced with challenges arising out of “extraordinary militarisation” in its neighbourhood and “completely unprovoked aggression” on the northern border, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh said at the inaugural Indo-Russia ‘2+2’ dialogue even as the two nations

www.tribuneindia.com

 

[tomthounaojam]

Basically for
Sig-716 we have the 7.62x51
Ak-203 we have the 57.62x39
INSAS phasing out, so many 5.56 are left are we going to get the Caracal carbine or something in 5.56
Thanks

 

[Tactical Doge]

Basically for
Sig-716 we have the 7.62x51
Ak-203 we have the 57.62x39
INSAS phasing out, so many 5.56 are left are we going to get the Caracal carbine or something in 5.56
Thanks

5.56 INSAS is different from 5.56 NATO

 

[tomthounaojam]

5.56 INSAS is different from 5.56 NATO

Then basically these will be transfer to State and Central police?

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Then basically these will be transfer to State and Central police?

Just like how the SLRs and Lee Enfield made their way to the State Police Forces, the same will happen here to firstly replace the Lee Enfields and then maybe if required the SLRs.

 

[tomthounaojam]

Just like how the SLRs and Lee Enfield made their way to the State Police Forces, the same will happen here to firstly replace the Lee Enfields and then maybe if required the SLRs.

Cool, INSAS will always be in my heart first gun to fire about 16-17 years ago, a family friend was a Major in the Assam Regiment, they gave me 30 mins training and I fired about 36 rounds hit 34 at 200 meters at center mass, they were quite surprised and then fired Sterling at 10 meter whole mag hit only 5-6 lol was doing full auto, good old days.

Here myself from that day

 

[indiatester]

Cool, INSAS will always be in my heart first gun to fire about 16-17 years ago, a family friend was a Major in the Assam Regiment, they gave me 30 mins training and I fired about 36 rounds hit 34 at 200 meters at center mass, they were quite surprised and then fired Sterling at 10 meter whole mag hit only 5-6 lol was doing full auto, good old days.

Here myself from that day

Nice...
But dude... please put on some weight.

 

[samsaptaka]

Nice...
But dude... please put on some weight.

He may have, that pic is 16 to 17 yrs ago !

 

[Super falcon]

Do these chinese QBZ 191 counter indian sig sauer in war times

 

[rkhanna]

Do these chinese QBZ 191 counter indian sig sauer in war times

That's not how small arms work. They don't 'counter' each other.

 

[WolfPack86]

Ukraine crisis delays Ak-203 assault rifle deal with Russia
Due to the ongoing crisis in Ukraine, implementation of the deal for 6.1 lakh Ak-203 assault rifles signed with Russia last July has been delayed by at least few months, according to defence sources.

As part of pre-production activities, retrials were scheduled to be done with ammunition from the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) in Russia in the first half of February, two defence sources independently said. But due to the current situation they have been delayed by at least 3-4 months, one of the sources stated.

While the production activities are on, manufacturing of rifles will start after the trials, it has been learnt.

As reported by The Hindu earlier, with repeated delays in the deals for procurement of Ak-203 assault rifles, last August India had signed a deal for 70,000 Ak-103 assault tickets to be procured off the shelf. The delivery of these rifles has been completed, officials said.

In another small arms deal, the repeat order for 72,400 SIG-716 assault rifles from Sig Sauer is delayed and more than two officials, on condition of anonymity, said it is likely to be dropped.

In December, Alexander Mikheev, Director General of Rosoboronexport, said manufacturing of the rifles at the plant in Uttar Pradesh was likely to begin within few months. Over 6.1 lakh Ak-203 assault rifles costing over ₹5,000 crore will be manufactured by a Joint Venture, Indo-Russian Rifles Private Ltd (IRRPL), at Korwa, Amethi in Uttar Pradesh. IRRPL was set up jointly between with erstwhile OFB [now Advanced Weapons and Equipment India Limited (AWEIL) and Munitions India Limited (MIL)] of India and Rosoboronexport (RoE) and Kalashnikov of Russia.

Increase in localisation
As part of this, the first 70,000 AK-203 rifles will be produced in India with a phased increase in the extent of localisation from 5% to 70%. The rest of the rifles will be produced with 100% localisation.

A modern production line has been established and a small arms range has been set up where both factory and acceptance tests of assault rifles will be carried out.

Under a ₹700-crore deal in February 2019 with Sig Sauer of the U.S., the Defence Ministry procured 72,400 SIG-716 assault rifles through Fast Track Procurement (FTP), most of which were for the Army and have been provided to frontline troops involved in counter-insurgency operations.

The deal is in the Request For Proposal (RFP) stage and went for approval from the Competent Financial Authority (CFA) on February 22, one of the sources cited above said.

However, there is a push for foreclosure of the case given on the emphasis for boosting domestic industry, the source added.

The first lot of 72,400 SIG-716 assault rifles have long been inducted by the Army.

Ukraine crisis delays Ak-203 assault rifle deal with Russia

Retrials with ammunition from original equipment manufacturer have been delayed by at least 3-4 months

apdirect.in

 

[WolfPack86]

Russia delivers all the contracted 70,000 AK-203 to India
Russia has delivered to India all the contracted 70,000 AK-203 Kalashnikov assault rifles as envisaged under a contract signed late last summer between India and Kalashnikov.

The entire delivery was made earlier this week. A source explained, "delivery was fast tracked," pointing to the short time gap between the signing of the contract and its fructification.

The Indian Ministry of Defence intends to procure 670,000 AK-203 assault rifles, and the 70,000 delivered are part of that total.

The rest of the 600,000 will be manufactured in India's Amethi under a joint venture, the contract for which was signed on December 6, 2021.

The day saw the first India-Russia 2+2 meeting at the level of foreign and defence ministers, as well as Russian President Putin's visit to the annual summit in Delhi.

The total cost of the contract is around Rs 50 billion.

As part of India's localisation of defence manufacturing, a special purpose joint venture called Indo-Russian Rifles Private Ltd (IRRPL) has been created for the production of 600,000 AK-203 in India. The Joint Venture is between India, represented by the Defence PSUs-Advanced Weapons & Equipment India Limited (AWEIL) & Munitions India Limited (MIL) and Russia, represented by Rosoboronexport (RoE) & Concern Kalashnikov (CK).

The 7.62 x 39mm calibre AK-203 rifles will replace the in-service INSAS rifles that were inducted over three decades ago. The AK-203 assault rifles have an effective range of 800 meters, are light in weight, and are seen as being as easy to use as modern assault rifles.

Russia delivers all the contracted 70,000 AK-203 to India

Russia has delivered to India all the contracted 70,000 AK-203 Kalashnikov assault rifles as envisaged under a contract signed late last summer between India and Kalashnikov. The entire delivery was made earlier this week. A source explained, "delivery was fast tracked," pointing to the short...

www.wionews.com