New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Holy Triad]

Lol. And SAS used Sterling SMG in WW2. And Sivaji used a waghnakh. So?
Times change! If they're trying to do similar operations today with those weapons, anybody would call them retards.

For that exact role, today the X-95 would be WAAAY more concealable & easier to fire (even with one hand) than any buttless Ak, 9mm giving MUCH better controllable auto-fire & damage, plus supresser. Won't you agree?

It's not like our SF are pioneers in terms of tech or tactics... they just follow their own footsteps & are decades behind in every way.

Not really... And i'm not taking about SF (they can have as much variety they want) but regular infantry of the Army who're getting 5.56mm for carbine.

Sub-machine guns & carbines were dominated by the 9mm callibre. In case is Indian army, coupled with Sig-716 they'd not need too long range, but excell at CQB & COIN.
This bullpup X-95 having long barrel can negate 9mm's shortcomings by a bit & would be a decent compromise than having several guns for each 5.56mm, 7.62mm, 9mm (Army bought a bunch of new SMGs too) all at once!

Also the X-95 is technically a multical...

Army is not leaving out 9mm, b&t tp9s replacing all smg category weapon.we are going see multiple units using tp9s in coming years.
The X95 is a well proven COIN weapon, and it is now standardized as a infantry weapon among IDF. Using x95 for 9mm is not a desirable option coz using 9mm in a gas operated gun prone to malfunction in adverse(as I mentioned earlier,only 9x19mm worth of powder have tough time to generate enough gas to push the BCG to recycle).
9x19mm parabellum are meant to shoot in blowback action like tp9. Compare the size between x95 and tp9. But ballistic performance is very similar. Modern Infantry units usually avoid 9mm based guns as primary weapons. They use it only as a side arm.
In other words tp9 does the job of bigger 9mm x95 in much smaller package.

X95s are very good at spitting 5.56x45. I concur They are very potent option for infantry carbine replacement. It is most probably overlooked imo AR guns are much cheaper.

For 9mm no matter what, even with tgw longer barrel it only increase the accuracy, do not increase penetration power. As I said earlier,bigger the bullet higher the drop rate. It means the bullet starts to tumble mid air over 100mts. Even tp9s(mostly suppressed) are going to be deployed in really tight spaces like indoor ops, not in open area operations.

In case is Indian army, coupled with Sig-716 they'd not need too long range, but excell at CQB & COIN.

I think the concept of issuing cqb weapons,dawn from the idea of ambush like situations. In an ambush,LMGs and carbines(including X95s) will excel. Since carbine is more agile weapon.

 

[armyofhind]

For that exact role, today the X-95 would be WAAAY more concealable

Yup and way more clumsy too owing to the magazine snagging in places where it can't be seen.

Also the X-95 is a multical & modifiable... so there'll room to change if required.

Any multical weapon only adds to more logistical issues in field usage.
Especially in the Indian context.


Fact of the matter is that the SF has access now with special financial powers to any kind of weapon they want .
X-95 isnt a proven weapon and it's not your life on the line if that weapon fails to function when needed most.

SF is a group of consummate professional and if they choose to opt for a particular weapon, you, with zilch combat experience, are nobody to call them retards. Either accept that first or don't waste my time by quoting me again.

 

[Holy Triad]

Also the X-95 is a multical & modifiable... so there'll room to change if required.

The concept of multical weapon is a controversial concept. With proper modifications,(only a gun smith can perform those mods, cannot done in the field) theoretically one weapon can accept all calibres. But in reality,the question is how well the weapon perforns with other calibres. For example hk416 vs hk417 and SCAR L vs SCAR H.
Both are hk416(556) is a success but hk417(762) seen limited sales. Similarly SCAR H(762) was a success strong but its L variant is not.

Even Tavor, iwi tried 762 nato variant called Tavor 7, which is a sales disaster. It has too many problems.

I understand your concerns and where is your criticism comes from. But Our forces are in transition mode, where our infantry weapon doctrine has been drawn from budgetary restrictions(remember rfi for 6.5lk battle rifles used be for 762 nato. The rfi has been revised for 7.62x39 for cost saving measures).

 

[Johny_Baba]

Using x95 for 9mm is not a desirable option coz using 9mm in a gas operated gun prone to malfunction in adverse(as I mentioned earlier,only 9x19mm worth of powder have tough time to generate enough gas to push the BCG to recycle).
9x19mm parabellum are meant to shoot in blowback action like tp9.

9x19mm version of X-95 is of Blowback type instead of Tavor's long stroke gas piston type.

 

[Holy Triad]

9x19mm version of X-95 is of Blowback type instead of Tavor's long stroke gas piston type.

I haven't heard much about 9mm variant.corrections are welcome Thank you.I assume it cost as much as 556 variant.

 

[Holy Triad]

.................Self delete.............

 

[vampyrbladez]

9x19mm version of X-95 is of Blowback type instead of Tavor's long stroke gas piston type.

We have these guns because of Maino's corruption as 9x19 replacement!

 

[Bleh]

Yup and way more clumsy too owing to the magazine snagging in places where it can't be seen.

Firing (spray rather) 7.62×39 without a buttstock, would be less clumsy than a compact handleable carbine?!!! How'd he even hit the target?..

Cobras have nearly wiped out naxals with X-95 without those bullshit coming in the way.

Any multical weapon only adds to more logistical issues in field usage.
Especially in the Indian context.

X-95 isnt a proven weapon and it's not your life on the line if that weapon fails to function when needed most.

SF is a group of consummate professional and if they choose to opt for a particular weapon, you, with zilch combat experience, are nobody to call them retards. Either accept that first or don't waste my time by quoting me again.

More bullshit! Our SFs are some of the worst equipped in the world.
And 12000 X-95s used by CRPF alone, with Cobras working in worst logistical conditions preferring them.

Anyway Indian authorities, have a history of making retarded decisions & you can keep pretending Indian armed forces don't have a history of "opting for a particular weapon" for the worst reasons.

So sure, i'll not quote you in this anymore... Not like you have anything to add.

 

[Holy Triad]

are contemplating using the Ak-203 as carbines in Kashmir by removing the buttstock... LIKE

Its a terrible idea to remove buttstock on any assault rifle let alone in AKs.(AKs known for notorious recoil).

Three point of contact is essential to make any decent shot. This "jugad" is,I believe is result of procurement delays(basically limbo).

Our military doctrines revolves around heavy weapons(such as artillery,fighters) rather than infantry weapons systems. We lack bpjs,bphs, state of the art MANPADs.(remember kargil our migs and a heli brought down by enemy's MANPADs).

In Recent years, there are some improvements but not fast enough.

 

[armyofhind]

Firing (spray rather) 7.62×39 without a buttstock, would be less clumsy than a compact handleable carbine?!!! How'd he even hit the target?..

Your idea of a concealed weapon and how its used in Kashmir is way off the mark. Educate yourself, speak to some operators if you can get that chance, then come back yapping on the thread .

Are you really going ahead and comparing the fire discipline of an SF operator to a jihadi or Somali militia?
Do you know that RR and SF units train day in and out to achieve a high speed of aimed single shot and double tap accuracy which is tactical better in a firefight than the spray and pray which Jihadis do?

And 12000 X-95s used by CRPF alone, with Cobras working in worst logistical conditions preferring them.

Yes, and how many of those CRPF have seen combat in conditions where the weapon cannot be regularly field stripped and cleaned?

How many CRPF have you seen carrying the X-95 from the pics from encounter sites in Kashmir?

And how many COBRA guys have you spoken to who prefer carrying the X-95 over their upgraded AKs in the field?

How does the Penetration and stopping power of an X-95 compare to that of an AK?

Cared to seek the answer to these questions?

More bullshit! Our SFs are some of the worst equipped in the world.

That used to be the case a few years earlier, not now with the coming of the Unit Commanders Special Financial Powers. Where do you think the FAB Defense upgrade kits for RR is coming from?

Anyway, the scenario was worse in terms of PPE and COMMS.

Indian armed forces don't have a history of "opting for a particular weapon" for the worst reasons.

Have you got your head stuffed down someone's arsehole?
I was referring to SF, not general issue weapons for the military.
Unlike the rest of the military, SF has solid reasons for opting for every piece of kit that they carry into combat.
Too bad for you that they do not consult a keyboard warrior like yourself first.

Don't be a wannabe here kid. Still got a lot of learning to do as far as real world ops are concerned .

So sure, i'll not quote you in this anymore... Not like you have anything to add.

I just added a lot in this post from first hand accounts I have from people in harm's way right now.
You need to look at yourself and assess how you're being a waste of space and bandwidth by abusing the very people who are in harm's way to give you the freedom you have to do so.

 

[Bleh]

Are you really going ahead and comparing the fire discipline of an SF operator to a jihadi or Somali militia?
Do you know that RR and SF units train day in and out to achieve a high speed of aimed single shot and double tap accuracy which is tactical better in a firefight than the spray and pray which Jihadis do?

No amount of fire discipline can make recoil non-existent. That why no other force in the world do it.
It started as a fucking jugaad due to lack of better options, nothing more... And they're planning on continuing it!

Yes, and how many of those CRPF have seen combat in conditions where the weapon cannot be regularly field stripped and cleaned?

How many CRPF have you seen carrying the X-95 from the pics from encounter sites in Kashmir?

And how many COBRA guys have you spoken to who prefer carrying the X-95 over their upgraded AKs in the field?

How does the Penetration and stopping power of an X-95 compare to that of an AK?

That used to be the case a few years earlier, not now with the coming of the Unit Commanders Special Financial Powers. Where do you think the FAB Defense upgrade kits for RR is coming from?

Anyway, the scenario was worse in terms of PPE and COMMS.

Have you got your head stuffed down someone's arsehole?
I was referring to SF, not general issue weapons for the military.
Unlike the rest of the military, SF has solid reasons for opting for every piece of kit that they carry into combat.
Too bad for you that they do not consult a keyboard warrior like yourself first.

Don't be a wannabe here kid. Still got a lot of learning to do as far as real world ops are concerned .

I just added a lot in this post from first hand accounts I have from people in harm's way right now.
You need to look at yourself and assess how you're being a waste of space and bandwidth by abusing the very people who are in harm's way to give you the freedom you have to do so.

Do you even know who COBRAs are?!!!
Most of their Aks for replaced by X-95.

In Kashmir they just do perimeter & support, sometimes even carry sticks & pellet guns.

Google the last one...

This discussion is over, conceal your Ak up your behind.

 

[Kay]

Guys pls keep it civil.
AK 203 without stock would be a special purpose gun for special forces and cannot be handled by anyone without special training. Adding low recoil hollow point subsonic rounds (Russia is developing one) with suppressors would make it a perfect assassin's rifle.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Guys pls keep it civil.
AK 203 without stock would be a special purpose gun for special forces and cannot be handled by anyone without special training. Adding low recoil hollow point subsonic rounds (Russia is developing one) with suppressors would make it a perfect assassin's rifle.

Collapsible/folding stock is enough.

 

[Bleh]

Guys pls keep it civil.
AK 203 without stock would be a special purpose gun for special forces and cannot be handled by anyone without special training. Adding low recoil hollow point subsonic rounds (Russia is developing one) with suppressors would make it a perfect assassin's rifle.

Ok that's true, but still in theory... Our airforce didn't even bother buying latest versions of Russian AAMs despite Pakis getting AIM-120 almost 10 years ago.
So, Russia developing one buttless compatible round doesn't necessarily mean Indians will be using them, atleast not until some grand fuck-up happens due to lack of it.

You need to look at yourself and assess how you're being a waste of space and bandwidth by abusing the very people who are in harm's way to give you the freedom you have to do so.

...And don't try to play that card. I'm criticizing a very specific group of myopic brains, whose antiquated mentality is known to have caused a lot of unnecessary & avoidable Indian deaths!

 

[Yodha]

@Bleh Your frustration is evident from your writings. But... Rationale my friend is what you need for conversations and you don't seem to have one in your walnut. Calling your own army a militia and dumb ass doesn't score you any browny points. Take it slow with deep breaths. No need to raise your blood pressure.

And now for the logic in your discussions, I'll not comment on that. I'll leave it to other members. Nobody is using any weapon by removing the buttstock. So don't make yourself the butt of jokes. There is a reason in army when things happen and people who are in charge for these trials and selection of new weapons are far better qualified than some of us in this forum. So chill the fuck out.

 

[Kay]

@Bleh Your frustration is evident from your writings. But... Rationale my friend is what you need for conversations and you don't seem to have one in your walnut. Calling your own army a militia and dumb ass doesn't score you any browny points. Take it slow with deep breaths. No need to raise your blood pressure.

And now for the logic in your discussions, I'll not comment on that. I'll leave it to other members. Nobody is using any weapon by removing the buttstock. So don't make yourself the butt of jokes. There is a reason in army when things happen and people who are in charge for these trials and selection of new weapons are far better qualified than some of us in this forum. So chill the fuck out.

We do not have any doubt that our service men and women are extremely competent and professional - nor we doubt their wisdom in decision making - the concern is whether the decisions are based on merit alone or on outside influence and pressures.

 

[Bleh]

@Bleh Your frustration is evident from your writings. But... Rationale my friend is what you need for conversations and you don't seem to have one in your walnut. Calling your own army a militia and dumb ass doesn't score you any browny points. Take it slow with deep breaths. No need to raise your blood pressure.

And now for the logic in your discussions, I'll not comment on that. I'll leave it to other members. Nobody is using any weapon by removing the buttstock. So don't make yourself the butt of jokes. There is a reason in army when things happen and people who are in charge for these trials and selection of new weapons are far better qualified than some of us in this forum. So chill the fuck out.

Sure buddy, i take it all back... Our soldiers are not some of the worst equipped among its peers around the world, with every defence acquisition being made by visionary legends thinking of decades ahead making India a pioneer in every field.
Never were those decisions impractical or affected by kickbacks & were not ever last minute nor inadequate! Happy?

Again i wasn't shitting on the military but some specific individuals India-special attitude & mentality, so you can put your favourite card back in the deck.

 

[binayak95]

Ok that's true, but still in theory... Our airforce didn't even bother buying latest versions of Russian AAMs despite Pakis getting AIM-120 almost 10 years ago.
So, Russia developing one buttless compatible round doesn't necessarily mean Indians will be using them, atleast not until some grand fuck-up happens due to lack of it.

...And don't try to play that card. I'm criticizing a very specific group of myopic brains, whose antiquated mentality is known to have caused a lot of unnecessary & avoidable Indian deaths!

Again BS! IAF has been pestering MoD for AAMs for many years now. Fucking babus have ruined preparedness for decades now.

 

[armyofhind]

This discussion is over, conceal your Ak up your behind.

Yeah sure. Now that your dumbassery has been exposed, crawl back into your hole ******.

No amount of fire discipline can make recoil non-existent. That why no other force in the world do it.

Heard of the Mp5 Kurz idiot? Or does one have to shove it in your ass to tell you it exists?

Do you even know who COBRAs are?!!!
Most of their Aks for replaced by X-95.

Awwww. That's cute. Most of their AK are replaced by X-95. Just a wayward statement with no factual basis.

The fact remains, that the X-95 you see with COBRA appear only in pics which are photo ops.
Take any pics which have appeared of COBRA over the years where they are on actual ops or on exercise in the jungle and you'll see a predominantly high number of AKs with them.

Google the last one...

I dont need to Google shit. That's for a keyboard warrior like you. I can just ask my cousin about stuff. No Google will give you that .

It started as a fucking jugaad due to lack of better options, nothing more... And they're planning on continuing it!

Let me educate you on how it started then.
Back in the heydays of the militancy, Para SF made undercover ops units whodw fraternise with the enemy by posing as Kashmiri Youth.
At that time, a need was felt for a close quarter weapon fit for concealment and stopping power to match the AKs of the Jihadis.
NO SUCH WEAPON EXISTED. STILL DOESNT EXIST.
Which can be concealable, yet have enough stopping power and penetration to match an AK.
So improvisation was done by taking the buttstock off of AKs.
How Para guys used it at close range was borne from their superior firing skills, especially reflex shooting.
At close ranges, <15 mtrs. which is actually a very common engagement range in Kashmir, they fire it just by leveling the weapon from barrel down and firing it through the phehran.

And don't try to play that card. I'm criticizing a very specific group of myopic brains, whose antiquated mentality is known to have caused a lot of unnecessary & avoidable Indian deaths!

Criticising is one thing and name calling is another . Learn the difference between the two. And before you attempt to criticise, be open to the possibility that there can be things you don't know or haven't considered.
Don't start going bonkers like your ass is on fire when such things are pointed out by other members to you.
It will not stand on this forum.

 

[Bleh]

Again BS! IAF has been pestering MoD for AAMs for many years now. Fucking babus have ruined preparedness for decades now.

That's good, but Mr point still stands.
Bureaucracy, political, R&D leadership were all included as part off the problem too, not just military.

Buraecrats did the blunders like MMRCA & acquisition delays...
Military did the multicalibre charade & shat on indigenous projects for decades over phoren mal...
DRDO, HAL, OFB kept helping them with defects & delays...
Politicians & pimps are another reason Indian military is in the pityful condition today!!!

Times may be finally changing but that don't mean the old tumours aren't there anymore. Modi is in power but that doesn't mean that there aren't officers & office holders who've been waiting decades for their turn to get kickbacks, both military & civilian.

Yeah sure. Now that your dumbassery has been exposed, crawl back into your hole ******

Because i was taking about 9mm against 5.56 & 7.62 as carbine calibre for infantry & RR... You kept dragging in SF.

I though it better to just leave you barking.

Heard of the Mp5 Kurz idiot? Or does one have to shove it in your ass to tell you it exists

Pistol ammo, not 7.62×39.

I dont need to Google shit. That's for a keyboard warrior like you. I can just ask my cousin about stuff. No Google will give you that .

...And your cousin actually said this NSG officer lied in public?

NO SUCH WEAPON EXISTED. STILL DOESNT EXIST.

Yes, it does... As jihadis don't have armour & you're talking CQB & SF then even .45 SMGs can be considered. This is exactly the mentality!!!