New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Hari Sud]

When all these rifles have been dumped by the Army, then why are we talking about them.

 

[Anikastha]

Came across this.
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[mohitbhagat]

India offered 200 series of AK not the 100s (i.e no AK103 but the AK12)


https://ria.ru/20190124/1549790346.html

"Translation of key bit :


"- Literally in the last days of 2018, our specialists once again went to Delhi for negotiations. I personally met with representatives from the Indian side, with Rostec, Rosoboronexport and FSMTC, we are really discussing the potential production of the Kalashnikov in India. By the end of January 2019, we must formulate the main parameters of this plant. It should be understood that the Indians are already producing a product that they have mastered by themselves; we are, in fact, invited first of all in order to improve the quality."

"- In the process of negotiations, we explained that over the past 50 years, the Kalashnikov assault rifle, to put it mildly, has changed, we have new modifications, more interesting, and, most likely, we will come to the conclusion that we will change the product that has now been delivered troops. This will not be the AK of the 100th series, it will be similar to the AK-203, that is, a much more technically advanced product. As far as we know, this suits the Ministry of Defense, and the production side is also ready, it will be somewhat more expensive, but, in my opinion, this is the case when the price is justified.
~

Actually were getting Ak103m which was renamed as ak203. But ak203 and Ak12 are different rifles and should not be confused with each other

 

[mohitbhagat]

mcwis is way better than this shit

1st of all its not shit and 2nd MCIWS hasn't even completed its full development yet forget about being tested and proven

 

[mohitbhagat]

Right...although I'm not sure regarding the SF use of any of these guns. Usually, the SFs buy their own separately. Although it's not hard to imagine them getting hands on infantry weapons, if they happen to develop a liking for them.

(...or when they are required to operate under the guise of regular forces, but that happens anyway...)



MCIWS is dead. What's that saying..." A bird in hand is worth two in the bush ".

That said, on a purely technical standpoint, I agree. MCIWS was an AR15-inspired gas piston design. By virtue of design concept, it should have been better than an AK. But of course, that says nothing for how well OFB would have managed to build it, much less how good (or more aptly, how bad) the QA/QC across production batches would have been.

Because if there's one entity capable of messing up tried-and-tested designs and making them bad, its the OFB.

Well our SFs already uses m4a1/Ace32. So it would not be a surprise if they adopt car816 and ak203, both are excellent weapons. Also Sig 716 can be an excellent weapon against foes with body armors

 

[Holy Triad]

Actually were getting Ak103m which was renamed as ak203. But ak203 and Ak12 are different rifles and should not be confused with each other

You are right, kalashnikov concern renamed their 100m series,which hosts pic rails on dust cover,slightly different muzzle break and hand guards.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...ncern-introduces-ak-200-series-of-rifles/amp/

 

[Gessler]

^^MCIWS was Ar-18 based design, not Ar-15.

Why do you think that? The AR-18 is not a very widely used design, not to mention to the best of my knowledge, we never operated any AR18 in India so where could we have acquired the design?

 

[Twinblade]

Why do you think that? The AR-18 is not a very widely used design, not to mention to the best of my knowledge, we never operated any AR18 in India so where could we have acquired the design?

Steyr AUG.
SA80
G36
Fn SCAR
ARX160
And countless other modern rifles are based on AR18 design.

 

[Gessler]

Steyr AUG.
SA80
G36
Fn SCAR
ARX160
And countless other modern rifles are based on AR18 design.

...none of which we operate (save for SCARs in small numbers here and there).

So I still have to wonder where the connection to AR-18 comes from. All those guns had licensed the design from US, which we obviously haven't (not the type to do so either), so I'm gonna have to assume they took apart an AR-15, studied it, and applied a piston system to it.

Admitted, with the piston system and the apparent lack of a buffer tube, its likely they drew design cues from the 18, but very unlikely they studied the design off of anything other than a 15. The 15 DNA is very much present, courtesy the charging handle for example.

 

[Twinblade]

...none of which we operate (save for SCARs in small numbers here and there).

So I still have to wonder where the connection to AR-18 comes from. All those guns had licensed the design from US, which we obviously haven't (not the type to do so either), so I'm gonna have to assume they took apart an AR-15, studied it, and applied a piston system to it.

The Belgians and swiss didn't operate AKM to base Fn FNC and SiG 550 based ok AKM operating system. Neither did Austrians operate AR-18 to use it as a base to design Steyr Aug. AR-15 and AR-18 designs are more than 50 years old by now and virtually public domain knowledge.

 

[Gessler]

The Belgians and swiss didn't operate AKM to base Fn FNC and SiG 550 based ok AKM operating system. Neither did Austrians operate AR-18 to use it as a base to design Steyr Aug. AR-15 and AR-18 designs are more than 50 years old by now and virtually public domain knowledge.

But what design feature is it that makes you think its based on AR-18?

If it was based on AR-18, why does it have an AR-15 type charging handle?

 

[Bleh]

Well our SFs already uses m4a1/Ace32. So it would not be a surprise if they adopt car816 and ak203, both are excellent weapons. Also Sig 716 can be an excellent weapon against foes with body armors

No doubt the SIG-716 purchase is a great deal at great price, but why buy more underpowered 5.56 for carbine?
And now the retards are contemplating using the Ak-203 as carbines in Kashmir by removing the buttstock... LIKE JIHADI FUCKING MILITIA!!!

Why can't we just get more X-95 Zitara as Carbine for CQB & COIN? Although it costs almost 1.5 lakh a piece, we'll be ordering massive batches.

1. It's already manufactured by OFB in India.
2. It's being widely used in COIN by the Cobras.
3. It's a bullpup & perfect for CQB.
4. It's accuracy & barrel-length(13”) are pretty high for a carbine.
5. It's ultra-compact light-weight (<3 kg).
   
6. It's ambidextrous & reliable, can fire in rain & dirty.
7. It's got p-rails & polymer body.
8. It's capable of using 5.56mm ammunition & 9mm ammunition, by just switching barrel in minutes.
9. It's perfect to replace all 9mm carbines & old Aks.

 

[binayak95]

Sab theek hai - except OFB doesnt have the skill or the brains to make anything close to the error margins required for Tavors. The deal fell through - like really quickly.

Punj Lloyd and Kalyani now make X95s and F90s respectively though.

No doubt the SIG-716 purchase is a great deal at great price, but why buy more underpowered 5.56 for carbine?
And now the retards are contemplating using the Ak-203 as carbines in Kashmir by removing the buttstock... LIKE JIHADI FUCKING MILITIA!!!
View attachment 33925
Why can't we just get more X-95 Zitara as Carbine for CQB & COIN? Although it costs almost 1.5 lakh a piece, we'll be ordering massive batches.

1. It's already manufactured by OFB in India.
2. It's being widely used in COIN by the Cobras.
3. It's a bullpup & perfect for CQB.
4. It's accuracy & barrel-length(13”) are pretty high for a carbine.
5. It's ultra-compact light-weight (<3 kg).
   
6. It's ambidextrous & reliable, can fire in rain & dirty.
7. It's got p-rails & polymer body.
8. It's capable of using 5.56mm ammunition & 9mm ammunition, by just switching barrel in minutes.

 

[Bleh]

Sab theek hai - except OFB doesnt have the skill or the brains to make anything close to the error margins required for Tavors. The deal fell through - like really quickly.

Punj Lloyd and Kalyani now make X95s and F90s respectively though.

Ok, Punj Lloyd then...

X-95 probably got the highest velocity & accuracy 9mm round on market & available to be made in India!
Both OFB & Army brass can compete for trophy of "India's biggest dumbass".

 

[Holy Triad]

No doubt the SIG-716 purchase is a great deal at great price, but why buy more underpowered 5.56 for carbine?
And now the retards are contemplating using the Ak-203 as carbines in Kashmir by removing the buttstock... LIKE JIHADI FUCKING MILITIA!!!
View attachment 33925
Why can't we just get more X-95 Zitara as Carbine for CQB & COIN? Although it costs almost 1.5 lakh a piece, we'll be ordering massive batches.

1. It's already manufactured by OFB in India.
2. It's being widely used in COIN by the Cobras.
3. It's a bullpup & perfect for CQB.
4. It's accuracy & barrel-length(13”) are pretty high for a carbine.
5. It's ultra-compact light-weight (<3 kg).
   
6. It's ambidextrous & reliable, can fire in rain & dirty.
7. It's got p-rails & polymer body.
8. It's capable of using 5.56mm ammunition & 9mm ammunition, by just switching barrel in minutes.
9. It's perfect to replace all 9mm carbines & old Aks.

View attachment 33926
View attachment 33927

Although Using three calibres(7.62x51,7.62x39,5.56x45) is a logistical nightmare to the troops,each calibre has it own merits.

5.56 calibre may not be successful against jihadi scums, but very good calibre against conventional military soldiers.
It holds flat trajectory and most importantly it can penetrate through level 3 armours including BPJs and BPHs.

As for as X95s, I think of three reasons,
1.Ar15 types can be easily field stripped incase of malfunction.(Since X95 have a closed polymer body some parts are not accessible for field maintenance,such as gas tube)

2.many of soldiers are comfortable with handling AR15s (example ease of mag loading,but bullpups needs a learning curve)

3.There is a myth or discomfort around polymer based weapons among serving higher officers around the world about durability issues,fire resistance etc.( I don't condone this view)

Apart from this,there may be "hidden" reasons though. But imo entirely ditching 5.56 calibre is not a good idea.

 

[Bleh]

5.56 calibre may not be successful against jihadi scums, but very good calibre against conventional military soldiers.
It holds flat trajectory and most importantly it can penetrate through level 3 armours including BPJs and BPHs...

...But imo entirely ditching 5.56 calibre is not a good idea.

The X-95 can be 5.56mm, but Zittara is also compatible with Indian 5.56x30 cartridge (level iii penetrator) & good old 9x19mm cartridge. Takes just a different barrel, that can be issued as per unit requirements.
Also 33cm barrel of X-95 is claimed to be able to accelerate its 9mm rounds with higher accuracy & velocity. There are 9mm shaped to penetrate level iii.

I read an NSG officer's interview after 26/11 that their MP-5's 9mm can do much more damage than Ak's 7.62... So i doubt jihadis would be a problem.

As for as X95s, I think of three reasons,
1.Ar15 types can be easily field stripped incase of malfunction.(Since X95 have a closed polymer body some parts are not accessible for field maintenance,such as gas tube)

2.many of soldiers are comfortable with handling AR15s (example ease of mag loading,but bullpups needs a learning curve)

Apart from this,there may be "hidden" reasons though.

Not deal-breaker issues, given that its primary users right now are the Cobra with 12000 being used by CRPF (took 1 lakh/unit for that order-size).

Either their old-is-gold mentality make Indian Army's dinosaurs incapable of thinking ahead into future... or another "hidden reason" comes in mind, that i don't like.

 

[armyofhind]

And now the retards are contemplating using the Ak-203 as carbines in Kashmir by removing the buttstock... LIKE JIHADI FUCKING MILITIA!!!

Lol. Don't talk without knowing stuff.
My cousin back in his undercover days used to carry an AK under his phehran with the buttstock off.
Easily concealable.
That's what SF does day in and day out. Beat terrorists by being better than them at their own game.

If the SF guys choose to do it, you as a keyboard warrior have no place to tell them what they should or should not do. And definitely not call them retards.

 

[Holy Triad]

The X-95 can be 5.56mm but Zittara is also compatible with Indian 5.56x30 cartridge (level iii penetrator) & good old 9x19mm cartridge. Takes just a different barrel, that can be issued as per unit requirements.
Also 33cm barrel of X-95 is claimed to be able to accelerate its 9mm rounds with higher accuracy & velocity. There are 9mm shaped to penetrate level iii.

I read an NSG officer's interview after 26/11 that their MP-5's 9mm can do much more damage than Ak's 7.62... So i doubt jihadis would be a problem.

Not deal-breaker issues, given that its primary users right now are the Cobra with 12000 being used by CRPF (1 lakh/unit).

What you are referring is in the "magic" realms of ballistics. Various ballistic tests are scattered all around the YouTube, about the penetrating capabilities claiming so and so calibre is better.

Minsas and 9mm can penetrate bpjs but after penetration these rounds loses kinetic energy rapidly. Main culprit is lesser loadout capacity of these rounds(the 5.56x45, 45 mm worth of gun powder, whereas minsas only 30mm)

9mm have one more issue,which is post 100mts it loses energy rapidly(all heavier rounds performs poorly over distances) due to its weight,wind resistance etc.

But 5.56x45 rounds performs consistently over 400 to 500mts. This is where barrel length comes in play,carbines will hold about 300 to 400mts,but bullpups and full length barrel weapons like m16 will gives you much better 600mts.

Personally I'm not partial to bullpups, but in military circles there are two kinds of camps,one people who loves bullpups and people hates them and think of them as "abominations". This is more based on ego rather than reality.
More Evidently,you can see it on the SF units.Single unit will have operators with combination of tavors,m4s and modded AKs.

For me, it doesn't make sense when we see it as a big picture,but each camp run with their own philosophy.

Bottom line is, the argument over which is the best calibre? Is the Raging question among all top military and specops guys.
Even unkil specops trying new calibres like 300 blackouts,APCs etc. They even use different loadouts for the calibres.
For me Mission based calibre is best way to go for the SF guys.

It's a confusing argument, looks like our guys "trying"out all the options.
Like you,I too have concerns over how all this different calibres will fit into our services in the coming future.

 

[Bleh]

Greatest reason it should be considered first is, unlike AK-203 or CAR-816, X-95 is already made & operated in large numbers in India!!!

Lol. Don't talk without knowing stuff.
My cousin back in his undercover days used to carry an AK under his phehran with the buttstock off.
Easily concealable.
That's what SF does day in and day out. Beat terrorists by being better than them at their own game.

If the SF guys choose to do it, you as a keyboard warrior have no place to tell them what they should or should not do. And definitely not call them retards.

Lol. And SAS used Sterling SMG in WW2. And Sivaji used a waghnakh. So?

For that exact role, today the X-95 would be WAAAY more concealable & easier to fire (even with one hand) than any buttless Ak, 9mm giving MUCH better controllable auto-fire & damage, plus supresser. Won't you agree?

And let's not kid ourselves, our SF was/is equipped more like "Jihadi militia" than proper SF... some here are quite vocal it. Instead of glorifying that, it's better to try & change.

What you are referring is in the "magic" realms of ballistics. Various ballistic tests are scattered all around the YouTube, about the penetrating capabilities claiming so and so calibre is better.

Minsas and 9mm can penetrate bpjs but after penetration these rounds loses kinetic energy rapidly. Main culprit is lesser loadout capacity of these rounds(the 5.56x45, 45 mm worth of gun powder, whereas minsas only 30mm)

9mm have one more issue,which is post 100mts it loses energy rapidly(all heavier rounds performs poorly over distances) due to its weight,wind resistance etc.

But 5.56x45 rounds performs consistently over 400 to 500mts. This is where barrel length comes in play,carbines will hold about 300 to 400mts,but bullpups and full length barrel weapons like m16 will gives you much better 600mts.

Not really... And i'm not taking about SF (they can have as much variety they want) but regular infantry of the Army who're getting 5.56mm for carbine.

Sub-machine guns & carbines were dominated by the 9mm callibre. In case is Indian army, coupled with Sig-716 they'd not need too long range, but excell at CQB & COIN compared to both 5.56 & 7.62, right?
This bullpup X-95 having long barrel can negate 9mm's shortcomings by a bit & would be a decent compromise than having several guns for each 5.56mm, 7.62mm, 9mm (Army bought a bunch of new SMGs too) all at once!

Also the X-95 is a multical & modifiable... so there'll room to change if required.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Why do you think that? The AR-18 is not a very widely used design, not to mention to the best of my knowledge, we never operated any AR18 in India so where could we have acquired the design?

Well our SF guys indeed used AR-18,but i don't have the pic anymore as it shows dead link.

Originally it was posted by Shatrujeet where they mistakenly called it 'M16A1'

i hope someone from shatrujeet would repost the image to make things clear @hammer head @Bornubus

source - https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/indian-special-forces.33520/page-296#post-1333975