New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[abingdonboy]

Wasting time with your posts of trying to cancel Sig Sayer and CarAcal Rifle.

Also may I aLso tell you that Ak-12 is smaller caliber rifle with 5,45x39 round and Ak-15 is outer look modified Ak-103 rifle. Furniture and butt stock is good for looks. The under barrel grenade launcher will be a better accessory than butt stock or even P-rail.

I’m not trying to cancel those FTP deals but I can assure you russia is attempting to.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

You're absolutely right. Just take in mind the fact that just couple of months ago MOD said that the infantry will be armed with around 7.5 lakhs assault Rifles with the budget of around $1.9 billion. Sig has quoted a rifle for $990 per piece for the tender for 72400 odd rifles. Giving by this price we can arm entire army with 7.5lakhs rifles in less than $750 million. The price will further come down if we will tender for the entire 7.5lakhs rifles. Similarly the army requires a total of around 4.5 lakhs carbine and at the rate Caracal quoted at $1150 per rifle we can arm our entire military in less than $520 million.
We need to understand that we're going to use the next assault rifle for atleast next 20 years. So we need to make a decision which is future proof and will satisfy the needs of military in near future.

So for the price of one destroyer we could equip all our soldiers with modern assault rifles. And yet they refuse to do it.

 

[Hari Sud]

So for the price of one destroyer we could equip all our soldiers with modern assault rifles. And yet they refuse to do it.

Nest battle with China is going to be at Sea. The rifles will be in storage then.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Nest battle with China is going to be at Sea. The rifles will be in storage then.

No, it will also be in the mountains, where you will need ALL of those rifles.

 

[mohitbhagat]

FYI Russians are actively lobbying MoD to scrap Sig and Car deals, 50/50 chance they succeed.

They will not succeed. Don't worry about it

 

[mohitbhagat]

Wasting time with your posts of trying to cancel Sig Sayer and CarAcal Rifle.

Also may I aLso tell you that Ak-12 is smaller caliber rifle with 5,45x39 round and Ak-15 is outer look modified Ak-103 rifle. Furniture and butt stock is good for looks. The under barrel grenade launcher will be a better accessory than butt stock or even P-rail.

Really if you think furniture, buttstock, and p-rail are not important then buddy you're living in 20th century. And bdw a good rail helps in mounting a ubgl better. And ak15 should not be called a modified Ak103 but a modernise and advanced version of Ak103

 

[mohitbhagat]

Nest battle with China is going to be at Sea. The rifles will be in storage then.

Then we should let go of half of our soldiers in army if they are going to be that useless..

 

[Dharmic_Crusader]

what...is going on here....

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...fused-over-army-move/articleshow/66780071.cms

1 Rifle, 2 targets: Industry confused over army move

NEW DELHI: The Army’s search for a new assault rifle to arm its troops has left the private industry utterly confused as two parallel procurement procedures seem to be in play — one a competitive process with the Indian industry in the lead and the second, a direct purchase from Russia for the arms to be made by a public sector unit.

At stake is the Rs 12,280-crore requirement for 6.5 lakh new assault rifles the army needs urgently to replace older INSAS guns. The rifles are to be made in India with the number expected to go up as other services would also require them in future.

For several months, a series of talks have been on with the Russian government for a direct purchase of AK103 assault rifles to be manufactured by a joint venture firm in India led by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

However, only last month the Army also received proposals from the Indian industry in response to its request for information to produce 6.5 lakh of the rifles under the Buy and Make (Indian) category.

Interestingly, the AK103 has also been added as a contender to this process too, with a proposal received from the Adani Group to supply the rifles in partnership with the Kalashnikov Concern. While responses from several potential competitors have been received, there has been little clarity to the industry on how and if the process would go on.

Sources told ET that in meetings before the bids — which also contain price estimates for the rifles to be produced in India — the industry was categorically told that only 25% of the total quantity required would be reserved for the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) while the rest would be open to the private sector.

However, the talks with Russia have given the project new turn. While a competitive process of procurement is the most preferred model for an order of such kind in which several contenders are available across the globe, the defence ministry can technically abort the private sector-led process. The last time a major competitive process was overturned in favour of a direct government purchase was the Rafale deal that has now come under controversy.

Among international contenders that want to partner with Indian industry for the contract are Arsenal (Bulgaria), Sig Sauer (US), IWI (Israel), Beretta (Italy), Colt (US) and Caracal (UAE). It is believed that Indian companies interested in the contract include the Punj Lloyd group, Reliance Defence, the Kalyani Group among others.

 

[ezsasa]

what...is going on here....

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...fused-over-army-move/articleshow/66780071.cms

1 Rifle, 2 targets: Industry confused over army move

NEW DELHI: The Army’s search for a new assault rifle to arm its troops has left the private industry utterly confused as two parallel procurement procedures seem to be in play — one a competitive process with the Indian industry in the lead and the second, a direct purchase from Russia for the arms to be made by a public sector unit.

At stake is the Rs 12,280-crore requirement for 6.5 lakh new assault rifles the army needs urgently to replace older INSAS guns. The rifles are to be made in India with the number expected to go up as other services would also require them in future.

For several months, a series of talks have been on with the Russian government for a direct purchase of AK103 assault rifles to be manufactured by a joint venture firm in India led by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

However, only last month the Army also received proposals from the Indian industry in response to its request for information to produce 6.5 lakh of the rifles under the Buy and Make (Indian) category.

Interestingly, the AK103 has also been added as a contender to this process too, with a proposal received from the Adani Group to supply the rifles in partnership with the Kalashnikov Concern. While responses from several potential competitors have been received, there has been little clarity to the industry on how and if the process would go on.

Sources told ET that in meetings before the bids — which also contain price estimates for the rifles to be produced in India — the industry was categorically told that only 25% of the total quantity required would be reserved for the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) while the rest would be open to the private sector.

However, the talks with Russia have given the project new turn. While a competitive process of procurement is the most preferred model for an order of such kind in which several contenders are available across the globe, the defence ministry can technically abort the private sector-led process. The last time a major competitive process was overturned in favour of a direct government purchase was the Rafale deal that has now come under controversy.

Among international contenders that want to partner with Indian industry for the contract are Arsenal (Bulgaria), Sig Sauer (US), IWI (Israel), Beretta (Italy), Colt (US) and Caracal (UAE). It is believed that Indian companies interested in the contract include the Punj Lloyd group, Reliance Defence, the Kalyani Group among others.

Only one confused here is economic times..........

 

[nongaddarliberal]

How is it that only the Indian army is deadly against 5.56 when all other armies are okay with issuing 5.56 or similar calibre rifles as standard? The Russian are happy with their 5.45x39. The Americans are continuing to issue newer 5.56 rifles, such as the m27 IAR for the marines as standard. The Chinese are content with their 5.8 x 42mm rounds. The British, French and Germans are in the process of issuing newer 5.56 rifles as replacements for their respective service weapons. Sure, all these countries have designated marksmen rifles with 7.62x51, but all of them are sticking with 5.56 for their service rifles despite years of counter insurgency experience.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

I will oppose this deal upto the end. This is waste of resources.
Common now, who will manufacture the bullets for this.
Do they will also do TOT for it?
And cleaning equipments for it , that also we will buy from AMERICANS AND UAE PEOPLE.
And, will we able to upgrade these rifles on our own?
Or we have to gain permission from them,heck What will we become JUNIOR PARTNER or EQUAL PARTNER?
It is really ridiculous that we can't develop a good rifle.... no no no no problem here is ARMY SERIOUSLY LACKS VISION and Government is really not looking the options and opportunities in our home,heck they don't know what they must do.
NO PROPER FUTURE PLANNING IS THERE.
NO DEFINITIVE LEADER IS THERE who can guide the people, it is what it is looking to me as an outsider.
Instead of spending on something that one can develop, spend that billion dollar on SMALL BATTLE FIELD DRONES, networking solutions or small satellites that right now very few countries are producing.
Now people will say what about our soldiers?
Really man, then call them back, really call them back.
Let's have MERCENARIES FIGHT FOR US.
Then we will not have to kill any of our SOLDIERS, as ridiculous it can get.

 

[mohitbhagat]

I will oppose this deal upto the end. This is waste of resources.
Common now, who will manufacture the bullets for this.
Do they will also do TOT for it?
And cleaning equipments for it , that also we will buy from AMERICANS AND UAE PEOPLE.
And, will we able to upgrade these rifles on our own?
Or we have to gain permission from them,heck What will we become JUNIOR PARTNER or EQUAL PARTNER?
It is really ridiculous that we can't develop a good rifle.... no no no no problem here is ARMY SERIOUSLY LACKS VISION and Government is really not looking the options and opportunities in our home,heck they don't know what they must do.
NO PROPER FUTURE PLANNING IS THERE.
NO DEFINITIVE LEADER IS THERE who can guide the people, it is what it is looking to me as an outsider.
Instead of spending on something that one can develop, spend that billion dollar on SMALL BATTLE FIELD DRONES, networking solutions or small satellites that right now very few countries are producing.
Now people will say what about our soldiers?
Really man, then call them back, really call them back.
Let's have MERCENARIES FIGHT FOR US.
Then we will not have to kill any of our SOLDIERS, as ridiculous it can get.

What do you think how much an Insas costs....... It costs anywhere b/w 35-40k rupees. That's equal to what US army pays for their m4a1. And when it comes to comparing these two weapons I don't need to tell you which one is better. It's not about the foreign maal but it's about the quality.
Our ofb makes shitty rifles with poor quality control and no long term R&D and regular improvements on a particular rifle to make it better than before. Instead they simply switch to another rifle or platform. Private sector was never allowed to venture into this field until this very year. So how do you expect India to be able to develop an excellent small arm platform.
Had our private sector been allowed to venture into this field 5 years ago we would have already being exporting a world class rifle to other countries.
About foreign bullets you're worried about..... India already manufactures the 5.56 nato and 7.62 nato ammo. So there's no need for a tot. Sig Sauer & Caracal have Indian partners who can easily supply small things like cleaning kits for the rifles. On given sufficient enough orders they are willing to make these rifles in India. And these private companies will not just make these rifles from tot like what ofb does and then never capitalise on the know how they receive for further R&D of their own. These companies will form an alliance and make a new company/subsidiary of the parent company. They will not setup production lines but also R&D centers to further make their oun improvements and upgradation and even design their own weapons.
Caracal has an MOU with MkU of kanpur who wants to manufacture car816 and various other rifles in their kanpur facility. IWI has formed an subsidiary with punj Lloyd called bharat raksha system which manufactures almost entire range of IWI products in India.
Also I don't know if you noticed it or not but we're getting these rifles at a very good price which will further come down if order volume increases.
So stop overreacting to the needs of the forces

 

[Aaj ka hero]

What do you think how much an Insas costs....... It costs anywhere b/w 35-40k rupees. That's equal to what US army pays for their m4a1. And when it comes to comparing these two weapons I don't need to tell you which one is better. It's not about the foreign maal but it's about the quality.
Our ofb makes shitty rifles with poor quality control and no long term R&D and regular improvements on a particular rifle to make it better than before. Instead they simply switch to another rifle or platform. Private sector was never allowed to venture into this field until this very year. So how do you expect India to be able to develop an excellent small arm platform.
Had our private sector been allowed to venture into this field 5 years ago we would have already being exporting a world class rifle to other countries.
About foreign bullets you're worried about..... India already manufactures the 5.56 nato and 7.62 nato ammo. So there's no need for a tot. Sig Sauer & Caracal have Indian partners who can easily supply small things like cleaning kits for the rifles. On given sufficient enough orders they are willing to make these rifles in India. And these private companies will not just make these rifles from tot like what ofb does and then never capitalise on the know how they receive for further R&D of their own. These companies will form an alliance and make a new company/subsidiary of the parent company. They will not setup production lines but also R&D centers to further make their oun improvements and upgradation and even design their own weapons.
Caracal has an MOU with MkU of kanpur who wants to manufacture car816 and various other rifles in their kanpur facility. IWI has formed an subsidiary with punj Lloyd called bharat raksha system which manufactures almost entire range of IWI products in India.
Also I don't know if you noticed it or not but we're getting these rifles at a very good price which will further come down if order volume increases.
So stop overreacting to the needs of the forces

Dude, our private company can also be a primary contractor.
Every weapon go from top to bottom.
I am for solving the main problem of how OFB can make desirable weapon and army having more control of it and how private guys can enter in the stream and delivering good weapons.
Regarding who will manufacture bullets, that thing will only come forward when this deal is signed out.
This is waste.
Invest that much money on drones, AI, electronic warfare is much good,
THAN DOING SCREWDRIVING.
DON'T talk will happen, shall happen.

 

[binayak95]

Dude, our private company can also be a primary contractor.
Every weapon go from top to bottom.
I am for solving the main problem of how OFB can make desirable weapon and army having more control of it and how private guys can enter in the stream and delivering good weapons.
Regarding who will manufacture bullets, that thing will only come forward when this deal is signed out.
This is waste.
Invest that much money on drones, AI, electronic warfare is much good,
THAN DOING SCREWDRIVING.
DON'T talk will happen, shall happen.

What do you mean who will manufacture bullets ?

 

[Aaj ka hero]

What do you mean who will manufacture bullets ?

Well if anybody can give me the details of the deal that will be helpful.
I am saying once you open the door for this much import, then the company that is the main manufacturer of weapon will certainly try to attract more benefit for itself.
Just like m-777 they were saying that they produced 60 plus kms range capable gun(I know shell is the main thing here) but it has caused ripple effects here in india.
And also if I am not wrong su-30 mki upgrade sticking points also include ENGINE UP GRADATION, so talks are going on that front too.
I am saying IF YOU BUY FOREIGN WEAPON that you can produce
You destroy many things beside your own industry.
Just because bureaucracy is holding things you decide to buy foreign weapons.
It is just like you have catched serious cold but you are OK with your MARKET MEDICINE, that will not solve the problem.

 

[binayak95]

Well if anybody can give me the details of the deal that will be helpful.
I am saying once you open the door for this much import, then the company that is the main manufacturer of weapon will certainly try to attract more benefit for itself.
Just like m-777 they were saying that they produced 60 plus kms range capable gun(I know shell is the main thing here) but it has caused ripple effects here in india.
And also if I am not wrong su-30 mki upgrade sticking points also include ENGINE UP GRADATION, so talks are going on that front too.
I am saying IF YOU BUY FOREIGN WEAPON that you can produce
You destroy many things beside your own industry.
Just because bureaucracy is holding things you decide to buy foreign weapons.
It is just like you have catched serious cold but you are OK with your MARKET MEDICINE, that will not solve the problem.

this deal is for CAR 816s as Carbine, and SIG 716 as AR for infantry units, the former uses 5.56x45 NATO (INSAS waali round) while the latter uses 7.62x51 NATO (SLR, MMG, GPMG, sniper rifles, you get the idea)

We have been making these ammunition types for DECADES

 

[BRENT SAUER]

I am writing an article in the United States for the Colt Collectors Association. I own one of each of the Colt 7.62x39 and 5.56mm AR upper receivers that were tested on rifles in India. However, I cannot find any photos of the Colt rifles that were tested in India in the 2014 time frame. Does anyone have photos of the Colt proposal weapons for the multi-caliber rifle competition?

 

[rkhanna]

I am writing an article in the United States for the Colt Collectors Association. I own one of each of the Colt 7.62x39 and 5.56mm AR upper receivers that were tested on rifles in India. However, I cannot find any photos of the Colt rifles that were tested in India in the 2014 time frame. Does anyone have photos of the Colt proposal weapons for the multi-caliber rifle competition?

Welcome to DFI

Unfortunately I don't think pictures of the trials are available . India as a rule doesn't release such info to public with respect to tender and trialing process. If they do it's extremely rare and will usually center around domestic equipment.

Edit - guess I was wrong lol. See post below

 

[binayak95]

I am writing an article in the United States for the Colt Collectors Association. I own one of each of the Colt 7.62x39 and 5.56mm AR upper receivers that were tested on rifles in India. However, I cannot find any photos of the Colt rifles that were tested in India in the 2014 time frame. Does anyone have photos of the Colt proposal weapons for the multi-caliber rifle competition?

Here you go buddy. And send us a link of your article when it's finished.

 

[rkhanna]

We have been making these ammunition types for DECADES

On that note -

Stumpp Schuele Casings (SSC) Private Limited has decided to set up an ammunition manufacturing unit in Anantapur with an investment of Rs 1,020 crore.
Stumpp Schuele & Somappa Springs has established a joint venture with Companhia Brasileira de Cartuchos (CBC) to manufacture small and medium calibre ammunition for the Indian defence forces and military markets worldwide. CBC is the world’s second largest ammunition producer with facilities in Brazil, Czech Republic, the US and Germany.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/sta...-factory-to-come-up-in-anantapur-1919110.html