New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[mohitbhagat]

No comparative trials. It is a delay tactic.

I totally agree.....
Our forces are asking for new and better rifles for more than a decade now. MCIWS design is not that refined and it will take some time and constant upgradation to get it perfect. You don't want to repeat the same mistake of Insas again. Because whatever we're going to induct now will stay there for atleast next 20 years and more. So make a decision like FN FAL /SLRs which still is a potent rifle

 

[Chinmoy]

God save us from ofb products. They are only good for paramilitary and police personnel not for modern military use. Private sector is the only way ahead

You can't generalize it. Example:

Various performance parameters, viz. maximum range, direct fire, rate of fire, accuracy and consistency, among others, were evaluated during the Field Evaluation Trials (FET) through actual firing at the Pokhran range. OFB’s Sharang gun was the only compliant gun after the completion of the trials.”

http://www.asianage.com/metros/kolkata/271018/ofb-bags-deal-to-upgrade-300-guns.html

The problem with OFB is in lack of thought in design.

 

[mohitbhagat]

I am saying comparitive trial should be held between Indian and foreign rifles.
Also quality control issues regarding Insas have been solved in the last decade itself.
Also MCIWS is a DRDO product and they can invite public private partnership like the ATAGS project if necessary.
Licence manufacturing of foreign rifles is not desirable since they don't own the IP and just want to jump on the profit bandwagon. Private industries interested in Rifles should do their own R&D and come up with their own products. Even OFB is doing their own R&D now and have come up with Ghatak, TAR, Excaliber MK1C and OFB 7.62*51 rifles as well as bolt action Sniper rifle in a relatively short period of time. Earlier they use to just licence manufacture Insas and other designs.

And the reason why ATAGS is a success because two really good private companies are a part of its development. They make sure they maintain top most level of quality control.
OFB lacks in quality control, innovation and the most of it intent and motivation. Just check out the quality of weapons they manufacture, the type of furniture they use in their products. They are a huge organization with almost unlimited resources and no risk taking problems. They should try to follow the present and future trends instead of just trying to build on the tot they received decades ago.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

And the reason why ATAGS is a success because two really good private companies are a part of its development. They make sure they maintain top most level of quality control.
OFB lacks in quality control, innovation and the most of it intent and motivation. Just check out the quality of weapons they manufacture, the type of furniture they use in their products. They are a huge organization with almost unlimited resources and no risk taking problems. They should try to follow the present and future trends instead of just trying to build on the tot they received decades ago.

How do you ensure quality control even in private sector once the foreign manufacturer has already selected the Indian private vendor. Remember all the private Indian companies have zero experience in rifle manufacturing let alone designing from scratch. They for a long time will depend on just screwdivergiri on behalf of the foreign company without gaining any knowledge or know-how. This is similar to what Hal and OFB is used to doing after getting TOT.
My point is private companies should do their own R&D on small arms and come up with a good product rather than importing costly foreign junk in the name of Make in India. I would rather have small arms whose IP owned by Indian companies, designed for Indian conditions so that modifications can be done inhouse as per future requirement.
I am not arguing a case for OFB vs private companies.

For practical purposes we should support those who manufacture indegeneous products.
Regarding ATAGS it is a DRDO initiated project and has seen private participation from both Tata and Bharat Forge. Do remember that Tata for a long time was offering a Denel G6 variant under make in India tag but they were forced to spend on r&d and as a result we have seen the sucessful birth of atags which is setting world records in its category.
The private sector should invest in R&D heaviliy and not just be a frontman for foreign companies to jump on the profit bandwagon. This is true for not only small arms but also for other sectors like aerospace.

 

[mohitbhagat]

How do you ensure quality control even in private sector once the foreign manufacturer has already selected the Indian private vendor. Remember all the private Indian companies have zero experience in rifle manufacturing let alone designing from scratch. They for a long time will depend on just screwdivergiri on behalf of the foreign company without gaining any knowledge or know-how. This is similar to what Hal and OFB is used to doing after getting TOT.
My point is private companies should do their own R&D on small arms and come up with a good product rather than importing costly foreign junk in the name of Make in India. I would rather have small arms whose IP owned by Indian companies, designed for Indian conditions so that modifications can be done inhouse as per future requirement.
I am not arguing a case for OFB vs private companies.

For practical purposes we should support those who manufacture indegeneous products.
Regarding ATAGS it is a DRDO initiated project and has seen private participation from both Tata and Bharat Forge. Do remember that Tata for a long time was offering a Denel G6 variant under make in India tag but they were forced to spend on r&d and as a result we have seen the sucessful birth of atags which is setting world records in its category.
The private sector should invest in R&D heaviliy and not just be a frontman for foreign companies to jump on the profit bandwagon. This is true for not only small arms but also for other sectors like aerospace.

1) How to ensure quality control in private firms........ Because ofb which is owned by govt. the people running it doesn't care much about its profit and loss as they are salaried people and gets retired at 60. And they don't get orders because they produce quality products and defeat their competition, they get orders because govt gives them.
Whereas in case of private sector, these people are here to do business.... And businessmen don't do stuffs to malign their name and reputation. Also they are accountable to the govt and forces, a bad quality may result in suspension of order, blacklisting etc.
2) Also the govt. asked them to find a local partner so that it could be made in India. It was not that the govt asked them to do partnership with any particular company. So they entered in a partnership with the company they thought would be best suited for them.
3) About R&D......... It takes a lot of time to develop even a small arm which makes it pointless to talk about the bigger weapons. These companies are not asked to develop a weapon with required specifications but are asked to field one directly in the competition. So these companies directly ties up with foreign companies for the tender.
Also the reason why there are no private sector manufacturing small arms is because of govt policy to make it a monopoly of the ofb. It was only after the current bjp govt which started giving license to the private industry. IWI small arms factory in Pune with punj Lloyd came after that. It's now that govt has started providing license to develop and manufacture to be private sector.
4) Also about foreign firms collaborating and manufacturing also happens in US. Companies like H&K, sig Sauer, FN all have manufacturing facilities in US with collaboration with local partners.
The sig Sauer who won the tender for 7.62 nato assault rifle is basically a swiss/German company. But the tender is won by their US arm.

 

[WolfPack86]

Paperwork Done, Mega @MakeInIndia Kalashnikov Assault Rifle Deal Before Year End.

 

[abingdonboy]

Paperwork Done, Mega @MakeInIndia Kalashnikov Assault Rifle Deal Before Year End.

F@ck these corrupt f@ckers in IA and MOD. Utterly utterly no reason for this deal.

TOT for a stamped receiver vanilla rifle of 7.62*39 calibre?? Is this a joke? Who is meant to be impressed by this news?

650K, six hundred and fifty THOUSAND rifles (more if the Russians have their way) each one with a licence fee to the Russian OEM for a nation that aims to send men into space in 5 years.

I’ve never seen anything like it. This is one of the largest small arms deals in history and it stinks to high heaven.

And what is Modi thinking, that this is a good look for India? He’s made India a laughing stock once again, INSAS saab progress and for all of the historic criticism of it it has developed over the years and is a perfectly adequate rifle today. So the IA wants Multi cal? Give them MCIWS, if they want 7.62*51 give them OFB R2. They keep moving the goalposts just to justify imports. This is a repeat of Arjun and they’ve got away with it again.

Corrupt b@stards will do the same with FRCV mark my words, they are already lining up T-14 for that imaginary role.

 

[Hari Sud]

F@ck these corrupt f@ckers in IA and MOD. Utterly utterly no reason for this deal.

TOT for a stamped receiver vanilla rifle of 7.62*39 calibre?? Is this a joke? Who is meant to be impressed by this news?

650K, six hundred and fifty THOUSAND rifles (more if the Russians have their way) each one with a licence fee to the Russian OEM for a nation that aims to send men into space in 5 years.

I’ve never seen anything like it. This is one of the largest small arms deals in history and it stinks to high heaven.

And what is Modi thinking, that this is a good look for India? He’s made India a laughing stock once again, INSAS saab progress and for all of the historic criticism of it it has developed over the years and is a perfectly adequate rifle today. So the IA wants Multi cal? Give them MCIWS, if they want 7.62*51 give them OFB R2. They keep moving the goalposts just to justify imports. This is a repeat of Arjun and they’ve got away with it again.

Corrupt b@stards will do the same with FRCV mark my words, they are already lining up T-14 for that imaginary role.

Disagree with your nonsense of Modi Bashing. Ak103 is a preferred weapon on the army’s selection process after first tier of full NATO battle rifle selection of Sig Sayer 7.72x51.

 

[abingdonboy]

Disagree with your nonsense of Modi Bashing. Ak103 is a preferred weapon on the army’s selection process after first tier of full NATO battle rifle selection of Sig Sayer 7.72x51.

It's not "Modi bashing"

And why is the AK all of a sudden the IA's preferred weapon? A couple of years ago they were asking for a Multi-cal rifle with 5.56*45,7.62*51 and 6.8 calibres, when MCIWS was put in trails they suddenly changed the GSQRs to 7.62*51 rifles only and then all of a sudden this 7.62*39 requirement came out of nowhere to be conveniently filled by the world's largest small arms procurement from Russia.

An utter joke, the IA has done EVERYTHING in their power to sabotage Indian products and procure imports (particuarly from Russia). Why not work with Indian industry to create a 7.62*39 rifle in India? What's wrong with Ghatak?

I am now 100% convinced that the senior brass of the IA is entirely comprimised and in the pocket of foreign interests- certainly the Kremlin.

 

[Kchontha]

Seems like trade unionism has won in case of ak 103 and the govt want to escape another controversy since Russian prefers adanis initially.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

 

[abingdonboy]

Seems like trade unionism has won in case of ak 103 and the govt want to escape another controversy since Russian prefers adanis initially.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

That’s certainly the case but the real question is they the AK? Why the 7.62*39 requirement?

 

[mohitbhagat]

If they want to go for AK series platform why not go for ak15 instead of Ak103.

 

[abingdonboy]

If they want to go for AK series platform why not go for ak15 instead of Ak103.

Becuase those making these decisions decisions (senior IA brass) don’t care. The Russians offered their outdated AK103 that they were probably thinking about discontinuing anyway and the IA happily accepted (I’m sure their hands were greased along the way).

Those that make these decisions haven’t served in combat for a long time and will never actually operate the rifle they are selecting so why do they care?

When has the IA ever shown that they care about maxisming the capability of the individual soldier? To the IA’s philosophy a soldier needs a rifle and a bayonet, everything else is optional.

 

[Hari Sud]

Ak103 is not outdated. It is much more reliable than most guns offered to India by Western countries including pricing. Indian Army extensibly uses Ak47 in terror operation and police and BSF swears by it, hence they would love the newer Ak103. Indian Army brass are not stupid, but I do not know about you. Indian Army is the only Army which has the most combat experience, which is unlike the British Army, who have not pulled out a gun in anger at anybody in last twenty years except acting as a second fiddle to American actions in Iraq or Afghanistan.

As for the selection process of Sig Sayer and Ak103, please do not understate the Indian Army top brass. They are as competent as anybody at most places more so because they have acquired combat experience over 20 years. You are in Britain, just count how many British generals have fired any gun in anger or have combat experience in snow, high altitude or jungle warfare as in Kashmir. They are highly experienced.

So stop foul mouthing Indian Army top brass.

 

[abingdonboy]

As for the selection process of Sig Sayer and Ak103, please do not understate the Indian Army top brass. They are as competent as anybody at most places more so because they have acquired combat experience over 20 years. You are in Britain, just count how many British generals have fired any gun in anger or have combat experience in snow, high altitude or jungle warfare as in Kashmir. They are highly experienced.

So stop foul mouthing Indian Army top brass.

Difference is British Army Generals Deliver world class equipment to their soldiers. These ultra experienced generals in India have for decades kept their soldiers looking like a militia.

Where does all this combat experience for Indian army generals go? They have accepted basic AK103 to be the mainstay of their force.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Ak103 is not outdated. It is much more reliable than most guns offered to India by Western countries including pricing. Indian Army extensibly uses Ak47 in terror operation and police and BSF swears by it, hence they would love the newer Ak103. Indian Army brass are not stupid, but I do not know about you. Indian Army is the only Army which has the most combat experience, which is unlike the British Army, who have not pulled out a gun in anger at anybody in last twenty years except acting as a second fiddle to American actions in Iraq or Afghanistan.

As for the selection process of Sig Sayer and Ak103, please do not understate the Indian Army top brass. They are as competent as anybody at most places more so because they have acquired combat experience over 20 years. You are in Britain, just count how many British generals have fired any gun in anger or have combat experience in snow, high altitude or jungle warfare as in Kashmir. They are highly experienced.

So stop foul mouthing Indian Army top brass.

In terms of infantry equipment, uniform and other gear, the Indian top brass must be made accountable for their record. This isn't a criticism of the other areas of their expertise, such as large scale maneuvers, overall training of the army, or battlefield tactics. But they have shown nothing but indifference to the standard gear that a regular infantryman carries. When it comes to fighter jets, an Su 30mki is up to the standard of western jets. When it comes to destroyers, a Kolkata class is up to the standard of western destroyers. But when it comes to infantry, the average Indian infantryman is stuck in the 70s. We would not tolerate this in any other area of the military, but seem to be satisfied when our regular soldier looks nothing like his western counterparts. And no, the new orders of 1.76 lakh Kevlar helmets and 3 lakh BPJ's are not enough to cover 700,000 infantry (bare minimum in a full scale war). Pakistan has an even higher number of Kevlar helmets being a much smaller army. Before you say it is too expensive, even assuming the same expense as the average American soldiers gear (17,000 USD), it would come up to 12 billion USD maximum to equip all our infantry along those lines. Over a 10 year period that's only 1.2 billion a year. In reality it will be much cheaper if we use local sources for similar equipment.

 

[mohitbhagat]

Ak103 is not outdated. It is much more reliable than most guns offered to India by Western countries including pricing. Indian Army extensibly uses Ak47 in terror operation and police and BSF swears by it, hence they would love the newer Ak103. Indian Army brass are not stupid, but I do not know about you. Indian Army is the only Army which has the most combat experience, which is unlike the British Army, who have not pulled out a gun in anger at anybody in last twenty years except acting as a second fiddle to American actions in Iraq or Afghanistan.

As for the selection process of Sig Sayer and Ak103, please do not understate the Indian Army top brass. They are as competent as anybody at most places more so because they have acquired combat experience over 20 years. You are in Britain, just count how many British generals have fired any gun in anger or have combat experience in snow, high altitude or jungle warfare as in Kashmir. They are highly experienced.

So stop foul mouthing Indian Army top brass.

Ak103 is a good rifle but it's not a new rifle it was designed in early 1990s. Russia army is adopting the newer Ak12 and AK15 so why are we going to make a rifle our general issue weapon which is of older generation and was inducted in 1990s. This is not a military decision it is more likely the way to keep the useless ofb alive and kicking.
As long as Sig Sauer 716 and Caracal Car 816 is concerned both are excellent weapons and as reliable as an Ak if not more.

 

[mohitbhagat]

In terms of infantry equipment, uniform and other gear, the Indian top brass must be made accountable for their record. This isn't a criticism of the other areas of their expertise, such as large scale maneuvers, overall training of the army, or battlefield tactics. But they have shown nothing but indifference to the standard gear that a regular infantryman carries. When it comes to fighter jets, an Su 30mki is up to the standard of western jets. When it comes to destroyers, a Kolkata class is up to the standard of western destroyers. But when it comes to infantry, the average Indian infantryman is stuck in the 70s. We would not tolerate this in any other area of the military, but seem to be satisfied when our regular soldier looks nothing like his western counterparts. And no, the new orders of 1.76 lakh Kevlar helmets and 3 lakh BPJ's are not enough to cover 700,000 infantry (bare minimum in a full scale war). Pakistan has an even higher number of Kevlar helmets being a much smaller army. Before you say it is too expensive, even assuming the same expense as the average American soldiers gear (17,000 USD), it would come up to 12 billion USD maximum to equip all our infantry along those lines. Over a 10 year period that's only 1.2 billion a year. In reality it will be much cheaper if we use local sources for similar equipment.

You're absolutely right. Just take in mind the fact that just couple of months ago MOD said that the infantry will be armed with around 7.5 lakhs assault Rifles with the budget of around $1.9 billion. Sig has quoted a rifle for $990 per piece for the tender for 72400 odd rifles. Giving by this price we can arm entire army with 7.5lakhs rifles in less than $750 million. The price will further come down if we will tender for the entire 7.5lakhs rifles. Similarly the army requires a total of around 4.5 lakhs carbine and at the rate Caracal quoted at $1150 per rifle we can arm our entire military in less than $520 million.
We need to understand that we're going to use the next assault rifle for atleast next 20 years. So we need to make a decision which is future proof and will satisfy the needs of military in near future.

 

[abingdonboy]

Ak103 is a good rifle but it's not a new rifle it was designed in early 1990s. Russia army is adopting the newer Ak12 and AK15 so why are we going to make a rifle our general issue weapon which is of older generation and was inducted in 1990s. This is not a military decision it is more likely the way to keep the useless ofb alive and kicking.
As long as Sig Sauer 716 and Caracal Car 816 is concerned both are excellent weapons and as reliable as an Ak if not more.

FYI Russians are actively lobbying MoD to scrap Sig and Car deals, 50/50 chance they succeed.

 

[Hari Sud]

FYI Russians are actively lobbying MoD to scrap Sig and Car deals, 50/50 chance they succeed.

Wasting time with your posts of trying to cancel Sig Sayer and CarAcal Rifle.

Also may I aLso tell you that Ak-12 is smaller caliber rifle with 5,45x39 round and Ak-15 is outer look modified Ak-103 rifle. Furniture and butt stock is good for looks. The under barrel grenade launcher will be a better accessory than butt stock or even P-rail.