NAL Saras, Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA) & Hansa Project

[Dark Sorrow]

CSIR-NAL starts testing engines and other equipment of SARAS Mk II

According to a report in The Indian Expres, Council for Scientific and Industrial Research-National Aerospace Laboratories (CSIR-NAL) proposed SARAS Mk II twin turboprop aircraft program has entered the critical design stage as an open-air engine test bed and real-time flight simulator has been set up at its facility for testing of various systems and subsystems.


CSIR-NAL has selected Pratt & Whitney PT6A-67A turboprop engines to power SARAS Mk II that can be used under the Government of India’s regional connectivity scheme UDAN. IAF has shown interest in procuring VVIP Configuration SARAS Mk II to ferry Senior ranked officials of the Military and government.


Mark 2 version which will have more than 70 percent indigenous content, will be around Rs. 40 crores to Rs.45 crore as against Rs.60 crore to Rs.70 crore for imported ones. Mark 2 version has considerable drag/weight reduction with unique features like high cruise speed, lower fuel consumption, short landing and take-off distance, low cabin noise, operable from a high and hot airfield, with a pressurized cabin, operable from semi-prepared airfield and low acquisition and maintenance cost.


idrw.org has been told that the rollout of the Mark 2 version was planned for 2024 but likely it will be delayed further.

CSIR-NAL starts testing engines and other equipment of SARAS Mk II – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Even Chinese domestic manufacturers are using existing suppliers for aviation products made by their companies.
Xian MA60 - Pratt & Whitney Canada PW100
Xian MA600 - Pratt & Whitney Canada PW100
Xian MA700 - Pratt & Whitney Canada PW150C
Comac ARJ21 - General Electric CF34
Comac C919 - CFM International LEAP

Till they are going on with next generation upgrade of their products. Having a competent aero industry helps in long term. NAL put years of work with SARAS MK1 with limited funding from government and our own technological capability. Even the Dornier we are making is off German origin. With Saras MK2 we will have a domestic IP product on which we can market anywhere in the world. Also, HAL recently launched the Dornier commercial variant, meaning we have a market for 19 seaters which is basically the saras MK2 going to be compete off with much better capability of having a pressurized cabin. Regions in HP, JK, LK,UK, AP,NL, Manipur, Mizoram can be a major area where we have tricky terrain, and these small planes will be helpful in moving cargo + passengers. Armed forces can used to move troops to forward ALG.

RTA also will be a next in evolution which is going to compete with ATR series of planes. Compared to SARAS with increase in domestic air travel these planes going to have a strong market. If the upcoming HAL-private consortium for AMCA production started and then we can expect a similar type of Consortium who will build the RTA at a competitive level.

This will also encourage the existing vendors to expand their business and makes them to start developing sub systems for commercial planes. In future maybe they will try to get in the global supply chains which is currently very few companies are part of it from India. Maybe this will again force the GOI to start thinking about indigenous engines.

Chinese already have propeller engines made domestically. And they are actually forcing Chinese companies to purchase them to test them and for any foreign client, it’s P&W engines.
For India, we can’t force any airlines to buy it. Nor we have an infrastructure to test engines. Do-228 already covers 19 seater market. Plus ATR is already dominant in Indian market.

Indian suppliers are already part of global supply chain like for body, wire harness and stuffs. But not with respect to Electronics unfortunately.

I am all for, if the GoI goes all in, but all indications are they don’t have the money and step motherly treatments are provided to R&D and orders for Indian origin projects. Saras Mk2, when it actually flies and certifies runs the risks of being late again.

If the GoI doesn’t have money, then they should concentrate on dual use programmes. Spend money on MTA, and then develop an civilian version

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

C295 is bigger, expensive aircraft not fit for role of 19 seater economical aircraft like Saras mk2. Moreover, Saras mk2 is design optimised version of Saras mk1 and also 70% indigenous so, we are getting more design data and ability to design the passenger aircrafts. An indigenous design is alwayz better because we dnt have to beg around OEMs for even small optimisations and allows us more learning and more data and more skills to go further in the field. Moreover, the cost of Saras mk2 may come out of to be less than other foreign competitors so that may help with export market. Its flight ceiling is quite high as well.
All in all it is good for our industry.

C295 can carry more people. For military I think it can carry 56 persons. When optimized for civilian operations, it can carry 35-40. Good enough for our needs.

Plus Tata can bring in funds. Nal has to wait for funds for half a decade

 

[Arpuster]

C295 can carry more people. For military I think it can carry 56 persons. When optimized for civilian operations, it can carry 35-40. Good enough for our needs.

Plus Tata can bring in funds. Nal has to wait for funds for half a decade

Yes it can carry more people but u dont use sword when u need a needle. For roles of Saras mk 2, C295 will be overkill. NAL has got funding for Saras mk2 and orders of IAF. I remember to read somewhere that One order from a pvt firm has also been received. Tata also ventured in C295 assembly due to C295 deal of GOI, they didnt fund all by themselves.

 

[Vamsi]

Chinese already have propeller engines made domestically. And they are actually forcing Chinese companies to purchase them to test them and for any foreign client, it’s P&W engines.
For India, we can’t force any airlines to buy it. Nor we have an infrastructure to test engines. Do-228 already covers 19 seater market. Plus ATR is already dominant in Indian market.

Indian suppliers are already part of global supply chain like for body, wire harness and stuffs. But not with respect to Electronics unfortunately.

I am all for, if the GoI goes all in, but all indications are they don’t have the money and step motherly treatments are provided to R&D and orders for Indian origin projects. Saras Mk2, when it actually flies and certifies runs the risks of being late again.

If the GoI doesn’t have money, then they should concentrate on dual use programmes. Spend money on MTA, and then develop an civilian version

As far as the engine part is concerned, I don't know what's stopping DRDO from developing turboprop & High bypass turbofan engines using Kaveri's core. They are keeping all their hopes on that 110KN engine core even for turboprops& HBTFs...

 

[Arpuster]

As far as the engine part is concerned, I don't know what's stopping DRDO from developing turboprop & High bypass turbofan engines using Kaveri's core. They are keeping all their hopes on that 110KN engine core even for turboprops& HBTFs...

I feel turboprop variant of HTSE-1200 can be developed by HAL for Saras mk2, that will be sufficient i guess.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Construction of C295 production facility has begun.

Don't RTA stands a chance now, at least not currently planned role and configuration. Positively, we will have a permanent facility to manufacture airliners now.
This Sunday, India’s C295 Aircraft Facility Is Born

Airbus and India’s Tata Group have chosen Gujarat’s Vadodara to set up their joint venture facility that will manufacture C295 transport aircraft for the Indian Air Force. At least forty of the 56 aircraft contracted last year will be built at a factory that begins construction this Sunday. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, a native of Gujarat and three-time former Chief Minister of the poll-bound state, will lay a ceremonial foundation stone to kick off an industrial partnership that will have the Indian Air Force exhaling.

Indian Defence Secretary Dr Ajay Kumar, the top bureaucrat in the Indian MoD, detailed the program plan today, telling a press conference that over 13,400 parts, including all major assemblies and sub-assemblies, of the C295 would be sourced from 125 Indian suppliers spread across seven Indian states. He also confirmed that the facility would serve as a hub for exports to meet C295 demands in other countries once it gets rolling, with a production rate of at least 8 aircraft per year. In addition, he said the Airbus-Tata facility would be in a position to manufacture larger transport aircraft in the future.

As Livefist has reported here before, the Indian C295 production line will all but definitely produce more than 40 aircraft. In a separate program, the Indian Coast Guard’s requirement of six C295 aircraft (for a multimission maritime aircraft or MMMA being conceived by the DRDO, a programme scooped first here on Livefist), it is now increasingly likely that the total DRDO-Coast Guard requirement could be up to 19 aircraft — 13 more aircraft than the Coast Guard has projected a requirement for.

The Indian Air Force’s own projection could swell beyond the 56 aircraft it has contracted to replace its old Avro HS748 transport planes. In many ways for Airbus, after years of disappointments and eleventh hour upsets, the wait has been worth it. Not just is this a military contract, it’s a big one on value terms, is a milestone in terms of debut participation in such a project by India’s private sector — and probably most crucially, is the first major Make in India project. Airbus has seen deal after deal slip out of its hands for two decades in India, but the C295 joint venture production facility nearly makes it all worth it for the company.

Separately, Advanced systems firm MBDA has also conveyed to the Indian government that the Marte ER could be a formidable fit on C295 transports, and has shared test data with the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy.

The first of 16 flyaway C295 aircraft, produced by Airbus at its CASA facility in Spain, will begin arriving in India by 2025. The IAF becomes the 35th C295 operator worldwide, with the program reaching over nearly 300 aircraft, 200 of which are already in operation and have booked more than half a million flight-hours. With the facility in India, the C295 will replace the IAF’s upgraded An-32 transports in a progressive manner over the years. Accidents involving An-32s, especially over the notoriously tough terrain of India’s north east where they are increasingly needed, has played a big part in speeding up the C295 program.

Flying in the aggressively whimsical weather of the North East, it is crucial that aircraft are able to climb out of valleys as quickly as possible so they can fly well above the weather, if possible avoiding it entirely. For all the An-32’s excellent qualities, its performance parameters and ‘drift-down altitude‘ sometimes make this difficult, especially with large cargo loads. As Livefist has reported before, IAF C295s will unburden to the extent possible the An-32 fleet from air logistics flight in the north-east and for flights over ocean, flights currently being carried out by the fewer-in-number C-130Js.

Airbus Defence will likely be galvanised for other contests/prospective contests it is currently participating in, including the Indian Navy’s naval utility helicopter (NUH) in which it has pitched the H135M and AS565 Panther, and multirole helicopter (NMRH) program, in which it has pitched the H225M Caracal. Other opportunities include the twice aborted IAF tanker contest, in which Airbus has fielded the A330 MRTT.

 

[Chinmoy]

Construction of C295 production facility has begun.

Don't RTA stands a chance now, at least not currently planned role and configuration. Positively, we will have a permanent facility to manufacture airliners now.

A very wrong perception I'd say.

RTA is a civilian project against C-295 which as of now is a complete defence project. For civilian purpose, we still need RTA. It would be replacing Dornier eventually as shown by an Air ambulance service provider.

 

[omaebakabaka]

As far as the engine part is concerned, I don't know what's stopping DRDO from developing turboprop & High bypass turbofan engines using Kaveri's core. They are keeping all their hopes on that 110KN engine core even for turboprops& HBTFs...

Any moving thing is usually designed around the power plant, I am not sure if Kaveri was ready when they started. It would take good amount of resources to get it customized to suit this project and may delay and even kill saras in my opinion. Plus its easy to get certification and see commercial success....I hope to see kaveri work atleast in DRDO drones.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

As far as the engine part is concerned, I don't know what's stopping DRDO from developing turboprop & High bypass turbofan engines using Kaveri's core. They are keeping all their hopes on that 110KN engine core even for turboprops& HBTFs...

DRDO just can’t conjure stuffs. They work based on requirements. GoI has to give requirements to DRDO/GTRE to come with civilian engines. Certification for civilian engines is an beastly process. It would be a costly mistake at this point when they are struggling basically with military engines and understand, for military some leeway can be provided in terms of safety. As I said, the govt needs to go all the way in with the funds for engines, airbody design and electronics. Will take money. Countries such as Brazil and Indonesia spent money on such companies and have nothing major to show on such investment cos they didn’t have money to further develop the product.

With money being scarce due to various reasons, GoI has to act judiciously. That is why my suggestion to use the existing platform and ask TATA to come up with civilian version and ask Tata to own IP for that version. Slowly and steadily an ecosystem can be built around that. With that established, it would be not difficult if india has to go an A220 or 320 equivalent in the future.

As for the engines, Even the HAL engine has been from the company’s own pocket. GoI has absolutely not contributed much in terms of
Engines in the last 12 years

 

[indian5knight]

We can modify C295 to deliver Brahmos missiles. It will be capable to carry multiple Brahmos which will make it deadly against any naval force.

 

[Eagle Eye]

ALL Govts in India failed on civilian aircraft development. Eventhough it falls directly in PM Office.
NAL should be merged with HAL. Hal should lead civilian aircraft development with PRIVATE Partners. India needs 2200 civilian aircraft betw 2020-2040.

 

[SilentlAssassin265]

ALL Govts in India failed on civilian aircraft development. Eventhough it falls directly in PM Office.
NAL should be merged with HAL. Hal should lead civilian aircraft development with PRIVATE Partners. India needs 2200 civilian aircraft betw 2020-2040.

Inatead NAL should be privatised.
NAL has literally achived nothing so theres no loss

 

[Azaad]

Can't vouch for the veracity of this video but welcome news if true . Here you go -

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Cross post from another thread. Sorry for posting video again.^^^^
HAL & BHEL to Develop 4000 HP Turboprop Engine

1. Intended for use in NAL's RTA-90, indigenous airliner.
2. RTA-90 already approved by ministries of S&T, Civil Aviation, Finance and PMO after September 2019.
3. Preliminary design phase was completed within 1.5 years of approval.
4. HTFE-25 and HTSE-1200 engines ready already for use. No applications though. Every kind of aircraft powerplants except turbojet engines are being developed in India.

 

[Azaad]

Cross post from another thread. Sorry for posting video again.^^^^
HAL & BHEL to Develop 4000 HP Turboprop Engine

1. Intended for use in NAL's RTA-90, indigenous airliner.
2. RTA-90 already approved by ministries of S&T, Civil Aviation, Finance and PMO after September 2019.
3. Preliminary design phase was completed within 1.5 years of approval.
4. HTFE-25 and HTSE-1200 engines ready already for use. No applications though. Every kind of aircraft powerplants except turbojet engines are being developed in India.

To make this project successful we need to production ise the 25 KN TF HTSE -25 ASAP.

HAL having projected a T/L of 2020-22 for
certification earlier has casually shifted it to 5-7 yrs from now as of the present.


Like the LCA project in the 2000s during the UPA era this is now an orphan or lawaris project. I wonder if this present project to develop the said Turboprop is a derivative of the HTFE 25 & an honest attempt to draw attention of the powers that be to finance the project with a view to bringing the RTA project to fruition.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

To make this project successful we need to production ise the 25 KN TF HTSE -25 ASAP.

Production for which aircraft? It doesn't have an application yet.

 

[Azaad]

Production for which aircraft? It doesn't have an application yet.

What's the 4000 HP project all about ? A clean sheet greenfield project or a derivative of the HTFE - 25 ?

 

[Eagle Eye]

Production for which aircraft? It doesn't have an application yet.

Thou there is no immediate use, other than news of using in UAV. Atleast they should complete flight worthy certification.

 

[Defcon 1]

Production for which aircraft? It doesn't have an application yet.

The afterburner version of this engine can be used for Jaguar.

Anyways, engine is not scheduled to be certified before 2026