Nag anti-tank Missile

[Bhadra]

This is a very important development for India's defence industry. Israel has been encroaching on several areas India should have already achieved independence from foreign supply. Cancelling Spike is the first step, cancelling ATHOS is the second. The final step will be ridding all Israeli avionics from Tejas.

That could be a competitors point of view and not users point of view.
The point is India as a country has two goals - Security and defense of India and economic development of India.
Which one has priority at any particular time and any particular issue should be their decision.
DRDO promises lot of things, promises delivery so many times but is the most unreliable partner - not developing what is required and not delivering in time.

MPATGM or ATHOS or radars is the requirement of the country and users. DRDO is just a competitors and should not be allowed to have a say on selection / selection decision.

Industrial / economic development is private industry focused policy and is a subject not to be controlled by DRDO.

 

[samsaptaka]

I hope DRDO's bollocks are twisted out of shape if they don't deliver on time !

 

[Enquirer]

Anti Tank missile was one of the first project taken up by scientist even before DRDO was formally established in 1960 and since then it is going on on on on and on .....Since the days of SS11B1 and its earlier variants.

Under the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) missiles technologies which could be taken from ISRO are the only one where there is something to write home about. Rest all is fuss fuss particularly AD series and in specific - the anti tank Nag.

Atk missile Nag of DODOs is in Patalloka lab and is refusing to come up. No DODO by the name of Arjun has been able to Charm Ulupi to produce a Nag.

15-20 kg missile and its seeker is not nano technology. The missile technology has developed the world over by leaps and bounds. In fact one of the major chapter of post WWII defence technologies has been that of constant struggle between armour and Atk missile technologies. But our DODOs are stuck at SS11B! levels.

Atk missile is most fundamental rudimentary weapon that the defence forces (Army, Navy, Airforce, Coast Guard) is supposed to hold. ASAT missiles have no meaning if India can not stop a Pakistani tank. I look at these achievements of DRDO as escape routes and diversions.

On top of that - Na banaunga na lene doonga culture pervades.

I suggest a NAG POOJA by DRDO. They can not make any MPATGM.

Not sure what your point is....but you've kinda buttressed my analysis!
Despite almost all missile programs starting at the same time, the bigger ones were successfully realized early on. The smallest one (Nag) is the only one that hasn't entered production!

 

[Bhadra]

Sir you are talking about a different project. Nag is a third gen ATGM. The missile that DRDO was developing in the 1960s was a first generation ATGM.
That missile was simply called DRDO Anti Tank Missile.

Here is some info on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Anti_Tank_Missile

yes sir . What I meant was that contrary to DRDO fanboys claims - DRDO is is at Anti Tank missile technology since 1960s but not been able to make even a dunda. Generation is a matter of development in technologies. I did not mean the same scientist are working on it since 1960 - it is the third generation of missile technos in 2019... two generations are eating pensions.

 

[Bhadra]

Not sure what your point is....but you've kinda buttressed my analysis!
Despite almost all missile programs starting at the same time, the bigger ones were successfully realized early on. The smallest one (Nag) is the only one that hasn't entered production!

I did but not that way.
There is no miniaturisation involved in MPATGM.
The larger one is the development of ISRO and DRDO has hardly any claim to that.
Since AD missiles and Atk missile could not be made out of ISRO launchers - here we are.

Even the larger ones - say NAMIC version is LOBL missiles, therefore having a maximum effective range depending on visibility , say2.5 km. monstrously bulky 40 kg heavy and has a minimum range of 700m now corrected to 400 m, still not inducted into service and still floundering in the heats of Pakharan ranges.

The problem with DODOs is that you ask them to make an arrow and they end up claiming that they have made railgun.

Same thing appears to have happened in NAG - user asked them to make MPATGM and DRDO ended up attempting at Hellfire.

Maya mili na Ram.

 

[Armand2REP]

That could be a competitors point of view and not users point of view.
The point is India as a country has two goals - Security and defense of India and economic development of India.
Which one has priority at any particular time and any particular issue should be their decision.
DRDO promises lot of things, promises delivery so many times but is the most unreliable partner - not developing what is required and not delivering in time.

MPATGM or ATHOS or radars is the requirement of the country and users. DRDO is just a competitors and should not be allowed to have a say on selection / selection decision.

Industrial / economic development is private industry focused policy and is a subject not to be controlled by DRDO.

That is neither here nor there. India has a national policy to buy indigenously whenever possible the same as France. If a domestic company has a product that meets the forces requirement it is a closed contract. Building your domestic MIC is a matter of national security that is just as important as the weapons the forces wield. If it is good enough and you can make it... you buy it. Israel is far too intertwined with the US MIC to be a reliable supplier despite whatever good will there is, if the US is upset they won't have a choice.

 

[Bhadra]

That is neither here nor there. India has a national policy to buy indigenously whenever possible the same as France. If a domestic company has a product that meets the forces requirement it is a closed contract. Building your domestic MIC is a matter of national security that is just as important as the weapons the forces wield. If it is good enough and you can make it... you buy it. Israel is far too intertwined with the US MIC to be a reliable supplier despite whatever good will there is, if the US is upset they won't have a choice.

If the product is available then why not. But if the product is under development for last 15 years and yet not there then it is preposterous to cancel imports.

The policy is not single tiered indigenisation but modernisation also. The two can not be said to be always complementary. One can not say that Mig-21 is indigenous so the user should not ask for Rafael. Indigenous will come into play when two products are of similar standards and capabilities.

NAG which has not been fully tested yet can not be compared to Spike which is a proven system.

 

[Vijyes]

NAG which has not been fully tested yet can not be compared to Spike which is a proven system.

There ia no end to full test. Until the missile is tested in real war, it can't be fully tested. But with what test has been undertaken, it has worked very well

 

[Immanuel]

We could scrap imports if and only if capacity is built up to produce thousands of bombs, missiles etc. per year. If not, rest is all non sense. Local products either are delivered on time or forces should have the ability to order from wherever is needed.

 

[Bhadra]

There ia no end to full test. Until the missile is tested in real war, it can't be fully tested. But with what test has been undertaken, it has worked very well

Then give to Indian Army and they will test it LOC. There is a war going on there...

And the test has a laid down procedure. Ask MoD to wave it off ... and fire it yourself...

 

[Vijyes]

We could scrap imports if and only if capacity is built up to produce thousands of bombs, missiles etc. per year. If not, rest is all non sense. Local products either are delivered on time or forces should have the ability to order from wherever is needed.

Which imported items are sold to India in thousands? Also, in whatever Technology India has developed indigenously, it can manufacture enmasse. So, as long as Technology is available, manufacturing is easy.

Then give to Indian Army and they will test it LOC. There is a war going on there...

And the test has a laid down procedure. Ask MoD to wave it off ... and fire it yourself...

Bababanaras has stated in twitter that Indian ay used NAG against Pakistan bunkers. So, it has been tested there.

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

Bababanaras has stated in twitter that Indian ay used NAG against Pakistan bunkers. So, it has been tested there.

I think he meant NAMICA.

........................

 

[Vijyes]

I think he meant NAMICA.

........................

NAMICA is the vehicle (modified BMP2) that has NAG launcher mounted on it.

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

NAMICA is the vehicle (modified BMP2) that has NAG launcher mounted on it.

Yes man portable version is trouble otherwise NAMICA and HELINA can operate.

 

[IndianHawk]

People who are criticizing DRDO haven't read the article. The missile has already concluded second stage of testing successfully. That is why army and MOD are believing DRDO. They have been tracking the progress.

DRDO is promising delivery by 2021 spike won't come before that either. Even if DRDO delay by one- two year sky won't fall. We have thousands of Milan and konkur and other in the arsenal just sitting there for years and years.
We can probably blow up entire paki tank strength with reserve of our missile.

Indigenous development is far more important than speed of delivery here .

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[Chinmoy]

People who are criticizing DRDO haven't read the article. The missile has already concluded second stage of testing successfully. That is why army and MOD are believing DRDO. They have been tracking the progress.

DRDO is promising delivery by 2021 spike won't come before that either. Even if DRDO delay by one- two year sky won't fall. We have thousands of Milan and konkur and other in the arsenal just sitting there for years and years.
We can probably blow up entire paki tank strength with reserve of our missile.

Indigenous development is far more important than speed of delivery here .

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

Don't worry.......... People here are oblivious to many facts or infact are more interested in reading only those lines which suits them. DODO has not been able to deliver a ATGM till 1960 to now, CORRECT. But WHY?????

So 14 out of 16 missiles found the target.

So the users didn't found any comparative difference in between firing the home grown system and the exported one. One critical aspect was the reliability factor. Question arises about how reliable the Cobra or SS11B1 at that time. But lets leave it for now.

Now this is an old ailment of our forces. Change the QR.
Then what after that?

Give DODO something to license build instead of investing in R&D.

Now coming to DODO................ It is an extinct flightless bird.
Environment made it FLIGHTLESS and then consumers made it EXTINCT.

 

[Bhadra]

Don't worry.......... People here are oblivious to many facts or infact are more interested in reading only those lines which suits them. DODO has not been able to deliver a ATGM till 1960 to now, CORRECT. But WHY?????

View attachment 35906
So 14 out of 16 missiles found the target.

View attachment 35907
So the users didn't found any comparative difference in between firing the home grown system and the exported one. One critical aspect was the reliability factor. Question arises about how reliable the Cobra or SS11B1 at that time. But lets leave it for now.

View attachment 35908
Now this is an old ailment of our forces. Change the QR.
Then what after that?

View attachment 35909

Give DODO something to license build instead of investing in R&D.

Now coming to DODO................ It is an extinct flightless bird.
Environment made it FLIGHTLESS and then consumers made it EXTINCT.

I must appreciate and thank you for bringing it out that DRDL in fact has been working on anti tank missile technology since 1960s. You remember, you have been quoting this piece time and again. So the reserch expertise of DRDO in ATM is of about 60 years vintage.

It is no ones case that Atk missile was not prioritised for research and development and that its importance for indigenisation was not understood. It can also be stated safely that the project was not underfunded to run for 60 odd years.

In fact under operational conditions no force can operate without MPATGM. Their holding is at least six times more than guns in proportion. Besides the forces require ATGM of different sizes and ranges for mobile platforms, BMPs, possibly tanks and helicopters.

the organisation made themselves DODOs [flightless and endangered) themselves and they can hardly blame anyone for it. It is useless telling that the nation, Army , all defense Services fully supported them in all aspects in spite of having been banged by Cobras, Tows, improved tendon warhead Tows and other modern missile by the enemy on LOC for so many years.

I seriously suggest that DODOs pray to Ulupi to bless Arjun and produce NAG at least after 60 years pregnancy.

 

[Deathstar]

I have done my Btech project in DRDOs HEMRL which designs and tests fuel for all missiles and Rockets. I have seen their working. It doesn't look state of the art facility at all. Typical government facility with piss poor infra
Lazy employees

 

[daya]

Lazy employees

Only employees... You mean officers are not included in this...

 

[Deathstar]

Only employees... You mean officers are not included in this...

Well i didnt get to meet chief of HEMRL , did meet some officers but the facility didnt feel like it makes such a complex products like missile fuel
Did get to see rocket motor of Agni missile as well as its propellant cylinder ( it was atleast a floor high) lol