MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

[neo29]

Brazil continues FX-2 competition, backtracks on Rafale 'selection'

Brazil is continuing to negotiate with all three bidders for a multi-billion dollar fighter contract despite an announcement on 7 September by the presidents of Brazil and France that the Dassault Rafale F3 had been selected.

The Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Saab Gripen NG could be still allowed to "redefine" their offers for the FX-2 contract, Brazilian defence minister Nelson Jobim said in a written clarification released late on 8 September.

Jobim's statement noted that the French government had committed to deliver the Rafale "at competitive and reasonable prices, comparable to those paid by the French military".

The statement could prompt Dassault's rivals to resubmit their bids at a lower price to stay competitive with the Rafale proposal. But Saab and Boeing were still waiting to learn details about the Brazilian government's position on the negotiations with the Rafale.

"We have not been notified by the FX-2 commission nor anyone in the Brazilian government of any decision," Boeing says. "We will continue to work with Brazil on all aspects of the FX-2 competition pending formal notice of a final decision."

Jobim's statement contradicted remarks by presidents Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva of Brazil and Nicolas Sarkozy of France on 7 September, Brazil's independence holiday. Both Sarkozy and da Silva declared that the Rafale was Brazil's preferred choice, with da Silva praising the French government's openness about transferring technology, in particular.

Brazil is also seeking to obtain rights to assemble the Rafale locally and to market the aircraft to neighbouring Latin American countries. Although the initial order is for 36 aircraft, Brazil is reportedly considering buying as many as 130 fighters.

As a result of Sarkozy's visit to Brazil on 7 September, the two governments issued a joint communiqué that committed to further collaboration in the aerospace sector. Brazil has already agreed to acquire 50 Eurocopter EC725 helicopters for its military.

Sarkozy and da Silva also announced that French industry would become involved in the Embraer KC-390 tanker-transport development programme. The French military would also acquire about "a dozen" KC-130Js, although Brazilian officials later described the number as 10 aircraft.

French companies Dassault, Safran and Thales are expected to join Embraer's supply chain for the KC-390, which is being developed to rival the Lockheed Martin C-130J after 2014. Brazil launched the KC-390 programme in April, pledging nearly $2 billion for development and ordering the first 22 aircraft.

Source : flightglobal

 

[neo29]

Wikileaks Cablegate : Indian air force had decided to drop French Rafale from MMRCA comptetions

Wikileaks Cablegate document show that India had decided to drop French fighter aircraft Rafale from its Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. Indian Air Force is evaluating American, Swedish and Russian aircraft's for the bid. A classified cable titled "BRAZIL'S FIGHTER PURCHASE: ENDGAME STRATEGY," mentions "Investigate India,s decision to drop the Rafale from its fighter competition to see if there is a reason that would make the aircraft less attractive to Brazil."

We would bring to your notice our 2009 editorial (Dassault Aviation's Rafale push got a bug ). It was denied by Dassault that Rafale has been struck out of the Indian Air Force Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract.

One of the reasons that was attributed was

Insiders say the Ministry was also not very happy with the replies it received on technical queries sent after the French company submitted its technical bid."

As the French President is in India today, he is advertised to be pushing Rafale to Indian Air Force. The cable talks about the difference in the approaches in Brazilian aircraft tender.

With the French sale effort being managed directly from President Sarkozy,s cabinet and ongoing Swedish engagement on the Ministerial level, the USG is perceived by most Brazilians as lukewarm at best in its support for the FX2 sale.

The above explains the lethargy when it comes to Dassault to answer a question in a civil manner.

Another interesting part is Rafale is described as inferior.

It may well be that the Brazilians want to keep tech transfer doubts alive in order to have a ready-made excuse for buying an inferior plane, should political leaders decide to do so. Repeated concerns about unreleasable source code could have a similar basis.

Other interesting factor is that Brazilian concern is same as Indian, the "sanctions" or other similar approach from US Congress.

Finally, we have heard that there are concerns on Capitol Hill about the possibility of a South American arms race. Should these reach Brazilian ears, there will be additional worries that Congress will intervene to block the sale.

http://frontierindia.net/wikileaks-cablegate-indian-air-force-had-decided-to-drop-french-rafale-from-mmrca-comptetions

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Yes the Mirage is not ideally suited for the task but it did do its job well.

Have you heard about the AC-130U Spooky, imagine if the IAF had this 'bad boy' in 1999. Endurance of 10 hours, armed with JDAM's, HellFire,25mm Gatling-gun (capable of firing 1800 rounds per minute), a single-barrel, rapid-fire 40mm Bofors cannon, and a 105mm cannon. Its FLIR, LLTV, LST sensors suite and two laser designators makes it a terrorists worst nightmare like shooting ducks in a barrel :angry_1:.

 

[p2prada]

Have you heard about the AC-130U Spooky, imagine if the IAF had this 'bad boy' in 1999. Endurance of 10 hours, armed with JDAM's, HellFire,25mm Gatling-gun (capable of firing 1800 rounds per minute), a single-barrel, rapid-fire 40mm Bofors cannon, and a 105mm cannon. Its FLIR, LLTV, LST sensors suite and two laser designators makes it a terrorists worst nightmare like shooting ducks in a barrel :angry_1:.

I am a big fan of this baby. Hope we get a few. Though Stingers on mountains are a bit of a problem for us.

 

[rakesh]

Can anyone provide the detail about CISMOA ?

 

[SATISH]

Have you heard about the AC-130U Spooky, imagine if the IAF had this 'bad boy' in 1999. Endurance of 10 hours, armed with JDAM's, HellFire,25mm Gatling-gun (capable of firing 1800 rounds per minute), a single-barrel, rapid-fire 40mm Bofors cannon, and a 105mm cannon. Its FLIR, LLTV, LST sensors suite and two laser designators makes it a terrorists worst nightmare like shooting ducks in a barrel :angry_1:.

Kathy...even I too would like to get married to Miss World...but you see its real hard. I would love to see the Spectre/Spooky with the IA aviation... but it aint going to happen any time soon. We dont have the resources or capability of the USAF. And you must remember...during Kargil we were under US sanctions and no other country has anything similar to the beast.

 

[StealthSniper]

 

[LETHALFORCE]

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/12/07/16464096.html

Fighter jet manufacturers pitch planes to Parliament

OTTAWA — The makers of two different fighter jets Canada is not buying made their sales pitches anyway to Parliament's defence committee Tuesday.

Representatives from the German-based Eurofighter Typhoon and Sweden's Saab Gripen appeared at committee and told members their planes can meet Canada's air force demands, and are far cheaper than the fifth-generation F-35 Joint Strike Fighter stealth jet the government agreed to buy in July.

Canada intends to buy 65 F-35s for $9 billion — plus maintenance costs — to replace the aging fleet of CF-18s, with delivery expected to start in 2016.

Antony Ogilvie with Saab said they could supply Canada with 65 upgraded Gripens, with 40 years of maintenance costs included, for under $6 billion.

The Liberals have vowed, if elected, to cancel what they decry as a sole-sourced deal to buy the American F-35, and instead would open up the new jet purchase to a competition.

NDP defence critic Jack Harris said Tuesday's committee hearings made it "obvious" there are other, cheaper options available.

"The Conservative government is being very bull-headed about sole sourcing the F-35, and have made no attempt to even look at the available competition after the requirements were known," Harris said. "There are other aircraft that could potentially meet Canada's needs at a lesser cost."

But Jay Paxton, a spokesman for Defence Minister Peter MacKay, reiterated Tuesday only the F-35 will do.

It is the only fifth-generation stealth jet available.

"The F35 is the only available aircraft that meets the Canadian Forces requirements," Paxton wrote in an e-mail. "It provides our men and women in uniform with the best chance of succeeding in their missions and the highest probability that they will return home safely from their missions."

The Canadian aerospace industry has been begging the opposition parties to get on board with the government's plans because they say they stand to gain far more through the F-35 deal, which would allow them to work on the entire 3,000 to 5,000 expected sales, rather than a more traditional contract that would only guarantee Canadian industry with work on the 65 planes Canada is buying.

Also, while the F-35 is the newest, most cutting-edge technologically advanced plane in development, the Eurofighter and Gripen are older, with the Gripen first flying in the 1980s and the Typhoon's first flight in 1994.

 

[Armand2REP]

One thing the wikileaks have done is prove my suspicion the US has vendetta against Rafale. Everywhere it goes they use their clout to sabotage it. It is so inferior yet they go to such lengths to make it lose.

 

[Parthy]

Lockheed offsets mock MoD norms

US defence major Lockheed Martin's offset proposals, arising from its sale to India of six C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft for $962 million (about Rs 3,835 crore), are seen by some defence ministry officials as violating provisions of the offsets policy. They say they make a mockery of the ministry's stated aim of promoting an indigenous defence industry.

Lockheed Martin's $275-million offset offer was proposed on November 21 and cleared by the defence ministry. However, several ministry officials fear that allowing Lockheed Martin to bypass offset liabilities would invite similar disregard by other vendors.

The largest component of Lockheed Martin's offset offer is a $121-million proposal to import and operate a "weapons system trainer" (WST), which is a simulator on which instructors from Mahindra & Mahindra will train Indian Air Force (IAF) crews of the C-130J.

The first shocker is the cost of the WST, one of four simulators needed to train C-130J aircrews. For this piece of hardware alone, Lockheed Martin is claiming offsets credit worth $121 million, almost 45 per cent of its entire offset liability.

DOG FIGHT

Offset
proposal Value ($ mn) Defence ministry guideline

Manufacture of RFID
components 119 Does not qualify as not

military hardware
Simulator import 248 Straight imports cannot be treated as offsets

Contracts to M&M 55 Relates to import (of simulator)

Aircraft engine
design services 20 Eligible only for military engines

Technology transfer 15 No provision

F-16 avionics 15 Eligible for offset components

Travel savings 3 Not permissible

This has been possible because the IAF, for reasons unknown, did not include simulators while actually purchasing the C-130J. Had the WST been part of the C-130J contract, Lockheed Martin would have been liable — in accordance with Defence Offset Policy, a part of the Defence Procurement Procedure of 2008 (DPP-2008) — to pay 30 per cent of the cost of the simulator as offset.

Pushpinder Singh, a noted aerospace expert and editor of Vayu magazine, points out: "Simulators are vital for training crewpersons. That is why every buyer of aircraft includes training simulators in the primary contract. That benefits the buyer because the vendor becomes liable for offsets for the simulator as well."

Responding to an emailed query from Business Standard, Lockheed Martin confirmed:

"The requirement for a WST was not included under the letter of request for the C-130J issued by the government of India in December 2006. Lockheed Martin chose to include a WST in its offset proposal"¦ The government agreed with our view and approved the proposed offset project after negotiations."

When contacted by Business Standard for a comment on IAF's actions, the defence ministry did not respond.

Considered individually, almost every component of Lockheed Martin's simulator offset proposal violates the defence ministry's policy. Take, for instance, offset credit for $48 million to directly import the simulator, which will be installed in Hindon outside Delhi and operated by M&M, Lockheed Martin's Indian offset partner.

Straight imports of defence equipment cannot be treated as offsets under defence offset policy. Lockheed Martin, however, claims: "Direct foreign investment is permitted as an offset under the terms of the DPP. The milestone credits for the WST project are based on direct foreign investment in India, which results in the provision of aircrew training facilities and capabilities."

This, say offset experts, is factually incorrect. Para 2.1(b) of the offset policy permits "direct foreign investment for industrial infrastructure for services..." But the policy defines "services" as "maintenance, overhaul, upgrades, life extension, engineering, design, testing of defence products, defence related software or quality assurance services". What is being provided in this case is a ready-built simulator.

Lockheed Martin's other offset proposals have rung alarm bells within the ministry. They include offset credit of US $20 million for "aircraft engine design services" with Bangalore-based engineering firm QuEST. This would only be treatable as an offset if the design services were for military engines, but there is no way of ensuring that.

It has proposed offset credit of $15 million for "manufacture of F-16 avionics components" with Tata Power. While this would indeed be eligible for offsets, Tata Power confirms that there is no ongoing dialogue with Lockheed Martin.

Finally, a whopping offset credit of $119 million for "manufacture of RFID components" with Bharat Electronics. RFID components are not military equipment under the DPP-2008, and this manufacture does not qualify for offsets.

Worried by such violations of the offset policy, the defence ministry is carrying out a major review. But the Indian defence industry, which was supposed to benefit from offsets, is concerned that instead of tightening policy, the ministry is poised to create further loopholes that would benefit foreign vendors.




http://business-standard.com/india/news/lockheed-offsets-mock-mod-norms/417748/

 

[Crusader53]

Brazil continues FX-2 competition, backtracks on Rafale 'selection'

Brazil is continuing to negotiate with all three bidders for a multi-billion dollar fighter contract despite an announcement on 7 September by the presidents of Brazil and France that the Dassault Rafale F3 had been selected.

The Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Saab Gripen NG could be still allowed to "redefine" their offers for the FX-2 contract, Brazilian defence minister Nelson Jobim said in a written clarification released late on 8 September.

Jobim's statement noted that the French government had committed to deliver the Rafale "at competitive and reasonable prices, comparable to those paid by the French military".

The statement could prompt Dassault's rivals to resubmit their bids at a lower price to stay competitive with the Rafale proposal. But Saab and Boeing were still waiting to learn details about the Brazilian government's position on the negotiations with the Rafale.

"We have not been notified by the FX-2 commission nor anyone in the Brazilian government of any decision," Boeing says. "We will continue to work with Brazil on all aspects of the FX-2 competition pending formal notice of a final decision."

Jobim's statement contradicted remarks by presidents Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva of Brazil and Nicolas Sarkozy of France on 7 September, Brazil's independence holiday. Both Sarkozy and da Silva declared that the Rafale was Brazil's preferred choice, with da Silva praising the French government's openness about transferring technology, in particular.

Brazil is also seeking to obtain rights to assemble the Rafale locally and to market the aircraft to neighbouring Latin American countries. Although the initial order is for 36 aircraft, Brazil is reportedly considering buying as many as 130 fighters.

As a result of Sarkozy's visit to Brazil on 7 September, the two governments issued a joint communiqué that committed to further collaboration in the aerospace sector. Brazil has already agreed to acquire 50 Eurocopter EC725 helicopters for its military.

Sarkozy and da Silva also announced that French industry would become involved in the Embraer KC-390 tanker-transport development programme. The French military would also acquire about "a dozen" KC-130Js, although Brazilian officials later described the number as 10 aircraft.

French companies Dassault, Safran and Thales are expected to join Embraer's supply chain for the KC-390, which is being developed to rival the Lockheed Martin C-130J after 2014. Brazil launched the KC-390 programme in April, pledging nearly $2 billion for development and ordering the first 22 aircraft.

Source : flightglobal

The Brazilian Air Force has stated that it prefered the Super Hornet over the Rafale. So, maybe Brazil has decided to wait until India selects the MMRCA Winner. Thereby, making it much easier to select the Super Hornet too!

 

[slenke]

One thing the wikileaks have done is prove my suspicion the US has vendetta against Rafale. Everywhere it goes they use their clout to sabotage it. It is so inferior yet they go to such lengths to make it lose.

It's not a vendetta, just dirty tricks. And let's be honest, it's highly unlikely that France, or Sweden for that matter, are being "saints" in this business. It's just that the American dirty tricks have been revealed, so far..

 

[neo29]

MMRCA : BVR Silver Bullets for IAF

Lot of discussions have taken place on aircrafts in the race for providing 126 fighter jets to Indian air force for MMRCA tender , but very little has been discussed about
the weapons which will come with this , particularly Beyond visual range (BVR) Air to Air missiles (AAM) which is essential weapon in any fighter aircraft now .

Indian air force chief has recently disclosed that whichever aircraft will be selected of the MMRCA tender, Aircrafts will be deployed near Chinese border which will replace
old Mig-21s currently guarding north eastern borders of our country, and this is a considerable shift in IAF strategy and planning.

Earlier in late 80's saw arrival of brand new Mirage-2000h and Mig-29A which were mostly deployed in western sector towards Pakistani border , but recent decision to base IAF frontline Sukhoi Su-30MKI and also upgrade many North eastern airbase and runways to keep heaver fighters is the indication that best will be kept to face Chinese air force in case of border conflicts and Pakistani border will be guarded by Upgraded Mirage-2000h and Mig-29SMT along with indigenously developed LCA Tejas which will be based in western sector from 2012 onwards.

Coming back to BVRAAM's which will come with the aircrafts if selected by IAF

MBDA Meteor: Termed has one of the best BVRAAM is a Next generation BVRAAM developed by MBDA. Meteor is a light weight BVRAAM which incorporates stealthy
profile and lesser drag with advance sensors, Meteor has data link capability and can be guided by another aircraft like AWACS or by another fighter aircraft. Gripen and Eurofighter
are the aircrafts which will be have them has a standard BVRAAM package but they are Plans by IAF to acquire them in any case to improve Sukhoi-30 MKI BVR
fighting capability and integrations will be done with assistance from MBDA , when MKI's Mid-life up gradation program which will start in another two years from now .

Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM : American mostly likely table Family of AIM-120 AMRAAM which will be offered with F-18 SH and F-16IN , latest in the family are AIM-
120D and AIM-120C7 , Saab Gripen also can carry this missile which gives Swedish an edge in MMRCA tender since both Meteor and AIM-120 can be offered has the standard
BVRAAM for their jet .AIM-120 Family of AMRAAM will serve USAF and other countries till 2020 still a replacement which is under development become active and hits production
.
Raytheon AIM-9X Sidewinder: One more offering will come from Americans will be Sidewinder, it does not fall in category of BVRAAM but still is a potential AAM in close
range dogfight, both of the American Missiles are standard missiles in almost all of fighter jets operated by USAF and USN which includes F-15, F-16, F-22, F-35 and even F-18SH,
both AAM's are battle proven and has very high rate of success in dog fights.

MBDA MICA: another BVRAAM coming from MBDA is MICA which is a standard BVRAAM for Rafale jets and can also be integrated with Eurofighter, IAF is already procuring
them for their Mirage-2000H which will be upgraded soon with new avionics package and radar and will also get MICA BVRAAM. MICA has been rumored to be already
operational with 10 IAF Mirage 2000's which were purchased from the excess French Air force stock.

PYTHON-5 and DERBY: Israelis are keen to offer there PYTHON-5 which actually is not a BVRAAM but is still an advance AAM missile and currently operational with Israeli
F-15 and F-16s, while DERBY is a standard BVRAAM with Indian Navy's Sea Harrier fleet, while IAF has not yet integrated any of this missiles with their fleet of fighter jets,
but recently Indian navy have told they could like to have DERBY in Naval –Tejas too

idrw.org security magazine Dec issue

 

[Crusader53]

One thing the wikileaks have done is prove my suspicion the US has vendetta against Rafale. Everywhere it goes they use their clout to sabotage it. It is so inferior yet they go to such lengths to make it lose.

LOL


It's not dirty tricks at all and its extremely niave to believe. That France isn't doing everything in its power to winner the order too!


BTW The Rafale as yet to win any contest. Even when the US wasn't in play!:emot4:
So, if France can't win based on Capability and Price. Don't wine about.......

 

[neo29]

Considering Global geopolitics and corporate lobbying its highly unlikely that any of the contenders will win both Indian MMRCA and Brazil fighter competition.

After Indian MMRCA finishes its likely that Brazil will dictate terms to the loosing contenders for a better deal.

 

[ace009]

I have been following the discussions for quite some time now about how the different contenders for the MMRCA has "failed" the Leh tests - apparently because of the height and thin air. I am not a technical expert and maybe naive, but here are my two points (worth two cents maybe) ...

1. Aren't all these A/C supposed to operate at heights of up to 50,000 feet, so, 5000 ft above sea level should not be a problem right? Unless we are talking about takeoff and landing when the A/C presumably needs a lot more power and oxygen to burn the fuel needed for the power.
2. If the MMRCA is going to posted in Northeast (which has much less elevation, then why are the Leh tests being touted as SO important? Moreover, all I heard were "problems" faced in leh tests, nothing about total failure ... can someone enlighten?

Hey Kathy...good to see u here...

As you were saying that the delta configuration is good at supersonic performances and high altitude performance. The Delta also has a larger wing area that also directly influences the amount of fuel carried by a smaller airframe and also a larger surface area helps in high altitude manuvering. When we are talking about Kargil and the Himalayas you must consider it is a part of the highest mountain ranges that are 5000 feet above sea level. The air there is turbulent and is very thin.

The Mirage 2000 did its job perfectly as it was in its advantage flying over the mountain ranges and dropping bombs (more dumb bombs than precision).

Mirage 2000 was the first aircraft in the IAF to have the slightest multi-role capability. The MiG 29 was and is still the principle air-superiority fighter of the IAF. So the Mirage and the Jaguar were the only strike and recon aircrafts during Kargil after the shooting down of the MiG 21 by a MANPAD and engine flame out of the MiG 27.

And none of the MMRCA performed satisfactorily during the Leh trials. And the IAF asked everyone to tweak their aircrafts for operations from Leh. The main reason is because of the short runway and the turbulent air in the valley.

 

[SHASH2K2]

1. Aren't all these A/C supposed to operate at heights of up to 50,000 feet, so, 5000 ft above sea level should not be a problem right? Unless we are talking about takeoff and landing when the A/C presumably needs a lot more power and oxygen to burn the fuel needed for the power.

we are talking about take off and landing when it comes to high altitude performance.

 

[Armand2REP]

LOL

It's not dirty tricks at all and its extremely niave to believe. That France isn't doing everything in its power to winner the order too!

BTW The Rafale as yet to win any contest. Even when the US wasn't in play!:emot4:
So, if France can't win based on Capability and Price. Don't wine about.......

The only time Rafale lost was in Morocco to F-16s and S. Korea to F-15s. The US is always there. France doesn't have the clout of USA... nobody does.

 

[neo29]

The only time Rafale lost was in Morocco to F-16s and S. Korea to F-15s. The US is always there. France doesn't have the clout of USA... nobody does.

True ... but then one of the major drawbacks of Rafale is the price. Any buyer would consider US fighters to French coz of geopolitical advantage and more so lesser cost. Even the costly mirage upgrade deal is criticized by most coz of higher price.

In the mmrca though EF is closely priced to Rafale, it offers much more than Rafale. India is even getting blue prints to EF.

In such cases Rafale does have drawbacks and though being a good fighter it looses in price and offers less goodies than its competitors.

 

[Parthy]

Tech Transfer Issues Could Hold Up Indian Fighter Buy


Evidence is growing that the downselect decision for India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) may not be announced until the fourth quarter of 2011, with the holdup centered on terms for technology transfer.

India requires that any aircraft or weapons system introduced into service successfully clear all tests, trials and evaluations. All the MMRCA candidates have completed user trials, including weapons validations, technical and maintenance evaluations. They are currently being evaluated on their proposals for industrial offsets, with technology transfer next up. Only when this process produces a short list will their commercial offers be evaluated.

Technology transfer terms must be completed with the main contract, a defense official explained. India requires that licensed production of the aircraft, including engines, accessories, radars, systems and tooling, be covered by the tech transfer proposal. The ministry holds refusal rights on any specific item and suppliers must provide full life-cycle product support.

The MMRCA contract will provide for 126 aircraft and is the largest military procurement pending in India. It has drawn bids based on the MiG-35, Dassault's Rafale, Eurofighter, the Saab Gripen, Boeing's F/A-18E/F and Lockheed Martin's F-16.

Vendors, who were supposed to have their evaluations completed last April, have already been required to extend or revise their bids through next April because the selection process became bogged down. If the defense ministry is not able to complete its downselect process by then, vendors will have to resubmit their bids and another year's delay will ensue.

That raises the prospect that swings in currency rates could significantly change the value of the bids, given that rates are determined not when bids are received but when the commercial evaluation begins.



http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...nsfer Issues Could Hold Up Indian Fighter Buy