MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

[StealthSniper]

 

[Vladimir79]

For those who 're interested:

[/CENTER]

[video=google;7799646910622741871]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7799646910622741871#[/video]

 

[neo29]

Eurofighter AESA Radar Full Op by 2015

Livefist

 

[neo29]

Eurofighter Says Forget F-35, Typhoon Squares Up With Raptor!

Livefist

 

[Kunal Biswas]

~Rafale~

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[vishal_lionheart]

MMRCA Deal: Why We Need It-Points & Counterpoints

BY: JOYDEEP GHOSH For Security October issue

Why Gripen Is a Good Choice for MMRCA ?

IAF is desperately short of fighters with its strength now below 32 squadrons, and expected to go down further with more aircrafts being retired. While a sanctioned strength is 39.5 squadrons with healthy level of 44 squadrons which India reached only in mid 80s, the aging MiG21 retirement and delay in induction of Tejas meant India had to go for MMRCA. With the announcement date for MMRCA deal winner coming near people are talking a lot of things. Here is a comparison and reasons why Gripen is favorite to win the MMRCA deal of 126 aircrafts with option for 74 more. Here a few things need to be clearly mentioned

a) MMRCA deal was launched to replace MiG-21s.

b) The aircraft chosen has to be a 4.5 generation aircraft with all latest systems.

c) The aircraft has to be a low cost fighter that is easy to maintain.

Eurofighter

1) Some said Eurofighter held the edge with the 99 EJ-200 engine deal for Tejas Mk2 almost in its pocket.

A) But then grounding of Eurofighters across Europe due to concerns over faulty ejection seat (that killed a Saudi pilot) is a major setback.

B) The DOD announcement that GE414 has been selected for Tejas Mk2 pretty much cuts out Eurofighters.

C) Deliveries can be a problem as the aircraft is assembled at one place after sourcing it from various other units.

D) Eurofighter is a double engine heavy class fighter that's expensive to buy and maintain.

E) It has some US parts; if the US gets upset with India over any issue it can be problem to keep them flying.

Super Hornet

2) The selection of GE414 as Tejas Mk2 engines has bolstered the chances of F/A-18 Super Hornet as its powered by the same engine. But chances of Super Hornet are bleak because

A) Super Hornet is very expensive to buy as well as maintain, IAF has specified it wants a aircraft that's low cost and easy to maintain.

B) Super Hornet are double engine heavy class aircrafts

C) India will be required to sign CISMOA, BECA and various other agreements before IAF can use these aircrafts to maximum

D) If the US gets upset with India over any issue, it can starve India of crucial parts, software packages to keep them flying.

E) Its nearly 30 year old design.

Rafale

3) Like F/A-18 Super Hornet has everything going for it because it has virtually no US parts, is a very latest design. But its chances dwindle when we look in to the following

A) Its twin engine heavy class aircraft that's expensive to buy and maintain.

B) It's in service with just with French forces.

C) Deliveries have been behind schedule.

D) It lost out on several deals earlier, considered a black mark.

E) It has some US parts; if the US gets upset with India over any issue it can be problem to keep them flying.

Mig-35

4) Mig-35 is from the trusted old friend Russia, but there are several problems leading up to its non selection

A) Based on Mig-29 its still an experimental aircraft with all sorts developmental work still needed to be done.

B) IAF does not want to put all its eggs in Russian basket.

C) Its priced low but like all other Russian aircraft is expensive to maintain in the long run.

F-16

5) One of the most widely used and combat proven aircraft in jet era F-16 in its IN version has no chance of winning it, because

A) Its over 30 year old design

B) Its in service with PAF a disadvantage that IAF cant let itself exposed to, even if US says India has been offered a design leagues ahead of what PAF has.

C ) India will be required to sign CISMOA, BECA and various other agreements before IAF can use these aircrafts to maximum

D ) If the US gets upset with India over any issue, it can starve India of crucial parts, software packages to keep them flying.

Gripen

6 ) Gripen NG in its IN version has the brightest chance of winning the MMRCA deal. Though some said it will kill Tejas but its not the fact because

A ) Maturation limit of Tejas is likely to be similar to Gripen NG. If India selects Gripen NG, then Tejas & Gripen will compliment each other.

B ) Being single engine aircraft and developed around the millennium design the aircraft is the latest

C ) Its low cost and easy to maintain compared to other jets

D ) Is a purely commercial deal with no political constraints attached?

E) If selected Saab is willing to setup a entire production unit in India itself in association with HAL and work on further developing Gripen

F ) Gripen selection and production in India will help DRDO and HAL to expedite the development and roll out of Tejas Mk2 & 3.

G ) Since both Tejas Mk2 and Gripen NG IN will use the same engine, i.e. F414, with India going for licensed production of this engine from USA it cuts out chances of interference from USA, the only major US component on the plane.

H ) Option for further development on AESA radar, thrust vectoring for Tejas an added advantage

I ) Once India goes for buying cheaper Gripen, Pakistan can be kept out of the deal to buy it in future as we know it's financially difficult to them to buy F18, EF, Rafale.

J ) It is reportedly the only aircraft to have cleared the Leh trails.

All these points very much prove that Gripen is the front runner for winning MMRCA deal but in the end it will be ultimately a political decision.
http://idrw.org/?p=1011

 

[vishal_lionheart]

Please do not post PICTURE of FIGHTER JET's anymore.

Please elaborate above point by performance and quality vice.

 

[rohan]

Rafale should be the ideal candidate for MRCA. because it is proven platform (emerge from Mirage). Also it has good air to groud strike capability. And it takes less time for the indian pilots to be trained for it.

 

[vishal_lionheart]

Rafale had earlier out by IAF on TECHNICAL background, but after Sarkozy's phone call, it has been reconsider again. Its the Open secret, there are several reports on various blogs that Rafale even does not meet the technical parameter of Mirage 2000.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

MMRCA Deal: Why We Need It-Points & Counterpoints

BY: JOYDEEP GHOSH For Security October issue

Why Gripen Is a Good Choice for MMRCA ?

IAF is desperately short of fighters with its strength now below 32 squadrons, and expected to go down further with more aircrafts being retired. While a sanctioned strength is 39.5 squadrons with healthy level of 44 squadrons which India reached only in mid 80s, the aging MiG21 retirement and delay in induction of Tejas meant India had to go for MMRCA. With the announcement date for MMRCA deal winner coming near people are talking a lot of things. Here is a comparison and reasons why Gripen is favorite to win the MMRCA deal of 126 aircrafts with option for 74 more. Here a few things need to be clearly mentioned

a) MMRCA deal was launched to replace MiG-21s.

b) The aircraft chosen has to be a 4.5 generation aircraft with all latest systems.

c) The aircraft has to be a low cost fighter that is easy to maintain.


Rafale

3) Like F/A-18 Super Hornet has everything going for it because it has virtually no US parts, is a very latest design. But its chances dwindle when we look in to the following

A) Its twin engine heavy class aircraft that's expensive to buy and maintain.

B) It's in service with just with French forces.

C) Deliveries have been behind schedule.

D) It lost out on several deals earlier, considered a black mark.

E) It has some US parts; if the US gets upset with India over any issue it can be problem to keep them flying.

A)
HEAVY>> It fall on same category as MIG-35 which is a medium fighter, YET it have highest payload capacity than all other competitors..

HIGH COST>> Yes its second high price Aircraft on paper, But as known to everyone Brazil is getting it at half the price, Same can be done with India..

EXPENSIVE TO MAINTAIN>> Most laughable point, The most important part which need maintenance is the engine and Rafale manufacturers offered us to use KAVARI in rafale, Other than Rafale, AMCA will be using same engine hence less logistics and it support Indigenous product, Also it reduce the amount of maintenance cost as parts are MADE IN INDIA..



B)
Only in service within French Air-force>> Yes, It is only in service within french forces and its doing Gr8, locking F-22 and shooting MIR-2000/F-16/F-18/EF-2000..

C)
Need some info or link..

D)
SAME as Point 'B'???!

E)
It has some US parts; if the US gets upset with India over any issue it can be problem to keep them flying.>>

What parts are made in USA?, Is it engines?, Is it Radar?, Is it Avionics?, Is It weapons? ( AS FAR AS I KNOW ALL MADE IN FRANCE )



I like Gripen too, But it doesn't mean i start making wrong assumption without needed knowledge and start making wrong points regrading other Aircrafts..
My Vote is and always for RAFALE..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Rafale had earlier out by IAF on TECHNICAL background, but after Sarkozy's phone call, it has been reconsider again. Its the Open secret, there are several reports on various blogs that Rafale even does not meet the technical parameter of Mirage 2000.

Link and elaborate the technical parameters?

As i know Rafale replace more than 7 aircraft in FRANCE including Mir-2000..

 

[vishal_lionheart]

What parts are made in USA?, Is it engines?, Is it Radar?, Is it Avionics?, Is It weapons? ( AS FAR AS I KNOW ALL MADE IN FRANCE )

Death By Chocolate explain this part better than me?

I read that Advance SPECTRA suite is made by USA.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Death By Chocolate explain this part better than me?

I read that Advance SPECTRA suite is made by USA.

Spectra is a product of JV between THALES and MBDA both are FRENCH companies, Beside 'DEATH BY CHOCOLATE' is a pro US product where me and Others are not( http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=13702 )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_SPECTRA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_Group

Why should we go for American- made 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft? Each US-made MMRCA will cost us over $ 70 million while the LCA cost us only $ 26 million. Why should we spend so much money? Of course, we have problems with our LCA but we should be working to solve that. Why should we be so keen to become dependent? And, remember, when you build the LCA indigenously, you are building an institution.

In my assessment all that the Indian defence forces need is updated Sukhoi- 30s and Light Combat Aircraft. We should keep modernising the LCAs; they are as good as the Mirage 2000. ( MORE )

 

[vishal_lionheart]

You are Absolutely right, even I also favor not buying American Product, DBC wrongly interpreted, that Rafael has a couple of US parts, including SPECTRA. I favor Gripen because it is cost effective, as well as 4 sorties per day, compare to other Aircraft make difference. Also it is able to fly from under prepare road from N/E. where India can defend against CHINA. Hot refueling is also available on Gripen
I am just favoring Gripen

 

[Tshering22]

^^ It is your choice surely man. But it will make the Tejas Mk-2 redundant. That's something IAF doesn't want. And Gripen has far more American stuff than Rafale or Typhoon at all and if IAF is touchy about the sanctions matter, then it will never go for something that is 1/3rd American. IMO, the RFI to LM, Boeing and SAAB was just a business courtesy call to show that we're not in Russian camp but individual players. The Russians, French, German and British know this and that is why they've been sweetening the deals with offers that would pamper IAF to select their product. Knowing French reputation in IAF which is very very high, I do think that MRCA will tilt to Rafale or if not, Typhoon.

IAF will have no explanation for Gripens and we can just simply forget F-16 and F/A-18 after the "Strip Show" that US hosted with our C-130Js and possibly C-17s a few days back.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

IAF will have no explanation for Gripens and we can just simply forget F-16 and F/A-18 after the "Strip Show" that US hosted with our C-130Js and possibly C-17s a few days back.

mate do you seriously believe that we wont buy the american jets or is that what you want to believe? india just bought an american engine which is to equip our very own home grown product, the LCA, which means that jet remains as much prone to being sanctioned when we would need them the most till the time we find an alternative, hopefully an indigenous one. about those jets in mmrca being stripped down, well what if our ACM was to start singing one fine day that it wont make a difference operationally, didnt he just say that recently. stripped down or not, prone to sanctions or not, we like it or not, american jets remain very strong contenders and no its not me propagating that but just what i see happening around.

and if its going to be a political decision rest assured its not over for the american jets till the fat lady sings, and the fat lady singing could very well be the americans and not the raksha mantralay!

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Spectra is a product of JV between THALES and MBDA both are FRENCH companies, Beside 'DEATH BY CHOCOLATE' is a pro US product where me and Others are not( http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=13702 )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_SPECTRA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_Group

No you're not pro-US, you like many others here are anti-US. As for my pro-US leaning if we were arguing about Nuclear technology, fashion and more I'd be decidedly pro-France.
You see, my father is a proud Frenchmen and so I celebrate everything that is good about France and reserve the right to criticize the bad.

My position with regard to the Rafale has always been - it needs several years of development and an infusion of cash to become a competent modern weapons system. But when the latest French purchase of Rafale's are financed by sale of real estate and wireless frequencies to Telecoms it does not inspire confidence in the French government ability to sustain this program. If India is willing to spend several billions and wait a few years while capability is developed, fine tuned and problems ironed out then by all means - go for it.

Notice I said competent and not exceptional, while it has potential in air to air roles, close coupled canard design is not ideally suited for air to ground roles.
Close coupled canard designs are prone to pitch instability and is sensitive to CG (center of gravity) this translates to poor delivery of unguided munitions (iron bombs) and LGB's.

Questionable precision ground attack capabilities for Rafale F1-F2s, coupled with limited integration beyond French weapons,
has hurt the aircraft badly on the export market.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...s/awx/2010/08/12/awx_08_12_2010_p0-247576.xml

The introduction of F3 and ASSM has helped mask some of these deficiencies albeit at a higher price since ASSM's is several order of magnitudes more expensive than a 'dumb bomb'.

I honestly don't care who wins in India, but for the stated requirements of the Indian Air Force the F/A-18 E/F is a winner and I have an uncanny ability to pick winners.

Yes, Spectra is manufactured by Thales USA and that's not all.....
http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detail.html?model=Dassault_Rafale

 

[gogbot]

IAF will have no explanation for Gripens and we can just simply forget F-16 and F/A-18 after the "Strip Show" that US hosted with our C-130Js and possibly C-17s a few days back.

That is hardly a valid point.

We choose not sign those agreements, such as CISOMA
We choose to buy their hardware any way.
And we Decided that the loss of equipment from the aircraft was hardly detrimental to out operational capabilities.

We are still buying lots of US hardware. None of this seems to have deterred our interest in any of their machines.
More P8-I's more C-130's , more More C-17. Possibly Apache Longbows , F-18's , Javelins etc.
Why are we buying all this stuff.

A more valid point to make is that we should not buy US hardware if we do not wish to abide by their required agreements.

That "stripshow" as you term it is of our own choosing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No you're not pro-US, you like many others here are anti-US.

I am Pro French hardware doesn't makes me a Anti-American..

My position with regard to the Rafale has always been - it needs several years of development and an infusion of cash to become a competent modern weapons system. But when the latest French purchase of Rafale's are financed by sale of real estate and wireless frequencies to Telecoms it does not inspire confidence in the French government ability to sustain this program. If India is willing to spend several billions and wait a few years while capability is developed, fine tuned and problems ironed out then by all means - go for it.

Notice I said competent and not exceptional, while it has potential in air to air roles, close coupled canard design is not ideally suited for air to ground roles.
Close coupled canard designs are prone to pitch instability and is sensitive to CG (center of gravity) this translates to poor delivery of unguided munitions (iron bombs) and LGB's.

Every Aircraft goes through same, It update itself with time periods, Its flaws comes out in Combats and exercise, Rafale proves its worth in A2G in Afghanistan where dropping LBG is a regular task ( They have the ways of operating it in different manner ), In A2A it proved in various exercises..

Regarding dropping Dumb bombs its never accurate even by latest types, If their is inaccuracy while dropping dumb bombs than it missed it marks by how many yard/meter at what altitudes?

Yes, Spectra is manufactured by Thales USA and that's not all.....
http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detail.html?model=Dassault_Rafale

Its a Thales branch in USA, Which supply parts of Spectra made of US raw material, besides, Spectra and other are true product of FRENCH and it is deigned and manufacture in FRANCE, In case of such problems India already told abt ToT agreement to all MMRCA contenders..


US may have good hardware to offer but their past and present reputation matter a lot, Thats one of the reason why It don't hold much interest in IAF and IA..