Moscow-Islamabad partnership not against Delhi

pmaitra

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US involvement in supporting anti-India elements in South Asia is undisputed.

Now, after India started buying arms from the US, one would have thought there would be a change in tact, but we are hit with the revelation of the Chittagong Arms Haul case, and the case of Jamiat plan to topple the India friendly Awami League govt in BD, just so that Uncle can set up a military base there.

I have to say, it was a fantastic counter intelligence by RAW that prevented a coup in BD. This is the second time we thwarted a US base in South Asia. The first time, we had to send in the IPKF.

Bottom line: Keep the bully in check.
 

sgarg

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@Casper, you are too theoretical. The fact remains the empire does not like India. Indians are there only to be used, to be taken advantage of.
Your dream is very far from reality. A dream is a dream, it vanishes with the first ray of light in the morning.

There is no commonality between India and USA. Democracy is not a great bond. Even Pakistan has no commonality with Uncle. It is just that Uncle likes Pakistan because Uncle is in bed with Sunni States, and Pakistan keeps India in check.
 
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DingDong

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US involvement in supporting anti-India elements in South Asia is undisputed.

Now, after India started buying arms from the US, one would have thought there would be a change in tact, but we are hit with the revelation of the Chittagong Arms Haul case, and the case of Jamiat plan to topple the India friendly Awami League govt in BD, just so that Uncle can set up a military base there.

I have to say, it was a fantastic counter intelligence by RAW that prevented a coup in BD. This is the second time we thwarted a US base in South Asia. The first time, we had to send in the IPKF.

Bottom line: Keep the bully in check.
Why do we Indians need to be in one camp or another when all of us can be in the Indian camp? Are we still suffering of the hang-over of the cold war era? Can anybody explain why the USSR put pressure on India to release the POWs of 1971? After the end of the war the USSR immediately tries to move int Bangladesh. The US has actively supported insurgents working against India.

India did not toe US' line on China because our policymakers know well that after taking care of China, west will not stop there and then, we might be the next target.

I read one poster suggesting that the US never harms it's ally. Who was Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden then? Why did the Government of India feel a requirement for targeting the foreign funded NGOs?

India doesn't need to be morally correct, we must extract as much benefit as we can and then dump the so-called ally if the need arises.

We owe nothing to Russia, we owe nothing to any foreign country. If any Russian move works against our national interest we must resist such move irrespective of all the good things Russia did for us in past or might do in future. Same applies on all other countries.
 

pmaitra

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Why do we Indians need to be in one camp or another when all of us can be in the Indian camp? Are we still suffering of the hang-over of the cold war era? Can anybody explain why the USSR put pressure on India to release the POWs of 1971? After the end of the war the USSR immediately tries to move int Bangladesh. The US has actively supported insurgents working against India.

India did not toe US' line on China because our policymakers know well that after taking care of China, west will not stop there and then, we might be the next target.

I read one poster suggesting that the US never harms it's ally. Who was Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden then? Why did the Government of India feel a requirement for targeting the foreign funded NGOs?

India doesn't need to be morally correct, we must extract as much benefit as we can and then dump the so-called ally if the need arises.

We owe nothing to Russia, we owe nothing to any foreign country. If any Russian move works against our national interest we must resist such move irrespective of all the good things Russia did for us in past or might do in future. Same applies on all other countries.
No, we don't need to be in anyone's camp.

Regarding that poster who said that US never harms its ally, I think I have not seen that post, but of course, that is not true.

Everyone looks out for its own interests. India needs to do the same. As you said correctly, we need to be in Indian camp. We need to make in India first. What we cannot get, we can get from Russia, Israel and France (although my opinion about France is changing, after having waited anxiously for the Rafale). I like the C-17 and the Apache, and I think we need to reward the US for its role in the Nuclear Deal, but not more. I am also against the Chinook replacing the Halo, because the latter meets the criteria and the former was just a thank-you candy that does not meet our criteria.

Overall, it is rather complicated, and the only way out of this headache is to make in India. We have no choice.

@DingDong, regarding releasing the 90,000 PoW in 1972, it is a long debate, and not so black and white. There are various opinions on this, and two most discussed points are, 90,000 PoWs release was necessary for Pakistan to accept BD's independence, and the other one was purely financial.

Link: http://books.google.com/books?id=1f...&q=why did India release 90,000 PoWs?&f=false
 
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Compersion

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Lets not use the word "annoy". Russians know the reasons why India buys from US. Now the relationship is different, and is driven by mutual benefit.

We must not stand in the way if Russia wants to sell to Pakistan just as we would not stand in the way if Russia sells to Bangladesh or Sri Lanka. There is no benefit in using influence in blocking such sales.

The influence should be used for more worthwhile purposes.
I appreciate response also guidance and apologies for my long response:

My thinking was that we have look PRC how it deals with USA that has resulted in it being a huge massive manufacturing trillion dollar economy that disturbed the Russia stature in geo-political environment since 1970s and later dealings. PRC is able to dominate Russia in talks in many areas now.
One of the reasons for the above is because of USA economic corporation, consent and tolerance that have enabled PRC to grow economically exponentially. Further PRC has made huge inroads into Russia supply of military hardware by focusing on local production and in fact is trying to supply many of its customers. In overall scheme of things Russia and PRC are natural partners but that is not the case and lets not forget the (stealing) copying and unrecognition by PRC on its development to Russia.

Yet Russia deals militarily corporation with PRC (and one reason it needs to deal with India more exceedingly) and sometimes in areas that has allowed PRC to develop its own defense systems (be it through sometimes through approval, mistake and oversight).

Putin does not get impressed by having news reports to show he is macho inside PRC. He knows the facts. The other consideration is PRC and its relationship and use of Pakistan (a bit like North Korea).

Now we compare India and its relationship with Russia. If India is repeating what PRC did that is fine Russia can sell weapons to Pakistan. I am totally fine with that and we deserve it and we have backstabbed the Russians. But that is not the case and it is not a fact. India foreign policy and relationship with Russia is not such abstract and nonfigurative that makes Russia feel redundant and annoyed. In fact India foreign policy with USA is also not such abstract and nonfigurative and USA knows the parameters that we are dealing with and the application needs to be away from Russia and more to our neighbors.

India dealing with USA is an open relationship and is not anti-Russia for example compared to the PRC and USA pirouette that happened in such manner earlier. In fact one can redefine the India and USA relationship (focus on neighbors) to say that it will benefit Russia. The underlying basis has to be fairness to both USA and Russia in India. India is not going to dump USA suddenly also if they are better and best in some areas that has to be the fact. If Russia is better and best in some areas that has be continued.

I will go on to say that India has the right to veto sales of weapons to Pakistan by Russia since the Indo-Russia relationship is much more advanced and mature that people fail to realize. If Putin wants to dominate India that's fine but we have to keep repeating the reality. We have to also start comforting and helping and advising Russia and start behaving like a big(ger) power. It might not happen this time and it might.

Pakistan is a small market (unlike PRC where Russia can say to India) and selling helicopters and non-lethal weapons can be overlooked but doing strategic defense corporation and to the extreme having its entire air force being run on Russian engines is a separate matter (not sure if that is likely). If Russia is dealing with Pakistan (a nation that takes pride in defeating it in 1980s) in a much more close defense partnership it is purely for geo-political reason and is telling India that and not for economic and military sale reasons (it's a small market) which can be given to PRC. It would be a surprise to be honest and will not be because of India backstabbing Russia.

It is absolutely a different thing:
1) If Russia sells to Pakistan
2) If Russia sells to Bangladesh - Sri Lanka – militarily non-aggressive country to India
3) If Russia sells to PRC

Further India has not done anything against Russia interests and has not backstab them. India value the relationship with Russia and is not going to forget and disturb that. I am sure the actual situation is that the conversation is that India dealing more closely with USA will be good for Russia. If Russia wants to react because they are being treated badly that is not reality and India needs to deal with it. India has not treated Russia bad. It is different being open with a long trusted relationship that we have with the Russians.

The relationship with USA is good for Russia from one side it reduce and change PRC linear ascendancy (and history and connection it has with Russia) to the other extreme side that it helps in product improvement that can be shared and compared to Russia military hardware with purpose that it will improve and help Russian industry in the long-term.

If Russia deals with Pakistan the only country that benefits is PRC. It is like North Korea. If Russia supplies military hardware to North Korea the only benefit is PRC. Why and how this is being overshadowed by Indian getting closer with USA is moving away from the real discussion that needs to take place.

Russia relationship with PRC
 

sorcerer

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At one point, CIA bought all the Toyota dealerships in Pakistan - all the dealerships, not just the cars, and all pick-ups were sent to the Mujahideen. It is not just the vehicle, but the sheer volume.

Pakistan will not transfer nukes to Taliban. They are not that stupid. The fear is Taliban successfully managing to steal one out, or Taliban defeating Pakistan's stores and taking control of fissile material.
Thats the larger plan.
USA cannot cease its operations in Pakistan unless USA is assured of the saftey of Pakistani nukes. USA knows that it cannot rely on 'assurance' alone. Pakistani nukes are only safe if its dismantled. With personels in Pakistan army itself turning into religious fanatics and turning against USA and Pakistan estalishment itself, it wont take long beore ISIS or Talibunnies get hold of wmds.
If Talib or anyother T-group manage to get any closer to Pakistan's puke establishment, USA and the west will dismantle the nukes and render Pakistan nuke free before polio.
 

DingDong

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I appreciate response also guidance and apologies for my long response:

My thinking was that we have look PRC how it deals with USA that has resulted in it being a huge massive manufacturing trillion dollar economy that disturbed the Russia stature in geo-political environment since 1970s and later dealings. PRC is able to dominate Russia in talks in many areas now.
One of the reasons for the above is because of USA economic corporation, consent and tolerance that have enabled PRC to grow economically exponentially. Further PRC has made huge inroads into Russia supply of military hardware by focusing on local production and in fact is trying to supply many of its customers. In overall scheme of things Russia and PRC are natural partners but that is not the case and lets not forget the (stealing) copying and unrecognition by PRC on its development to Russia.

Yet Russia deals militarily corporation with PRC (and one reason it needs to deal with India more exceedingly) and sometimes in areas that has allowed PRC to develop its own defense systems (be it through sometimes through approval, mistake and oversight).

Putin does not get impressed by having news reports to show he is macho inside PRC. He knows the facts. The other consideration is PRC and its relationship and use of Pakistan (a bit like North Korea).

Now we compare India and its relationship with Russia. If India is repeating what PRC did that is fine Russia can sell weapons to Pakistan. I am totally fine with that and we deserve it and we have backstabbed the Russians. But that is not the case and it is not a fact. India foreign policy and relationship with Russia is not such abstract and nonfigurative that makes Russia feel redundant and annoyed. In fact India foreign policy with USA is also not such abstract and nonfigurative and USA knows the parameters that we are dealing with and the application needs to be away from Russia and more to our neighbors.

India dealing with USA is an open relationship and is not anti-Russia for example compared to the PRC and USA pirouette that happened in such manner earlier. In fact one can redefine the India and USA relationship (focus on neighbors) to say that it will benefit Russia. The underlying basis has to be fairness to both USA and Russia in India. India is not going to dump USA suddenly also if they are better and best in some areas that has to be the fact. If Russia is better and best in some areas that has be continued.

I will go on to say that India has the right to veto sales of weapons to Pakistan by Russia since the Indo-Russia relationship is much more advanced and mature that people fail to realize. If Putin wants to dominate India that's fine but we have to keep repeating the reality. We have to also start comforting and helping and advising Russia and start behaving like a big(ger) power. It might not happen this time and it might.

Pakistan is a small market (unlike PRC where Russia can say to India) and selling helicopters and non-lethal weapons can be overlooked but doing strategic defense corporation and to the extreme having its entire air force being run on Russian engines is a separate matter (not sure if that is likely). If Russia is dealing with Pakistan (a nation that takes pride in defeating it in 1980s) in a much more close defense partnership it is purely for geo-political reason and is telling India that and not for economic and military sale reasons (it's a small market) which can be given to PRC. It would be a surprise to be honest and will not be because of India backstabbing Russia.

It is absolutely a different thing:
1) If Russia sells to Pakistan
2) If Russia sells to Bangladesh - Sri Lanka – militarily non-aggressive country to India
3) If Russia sells to PRC

Further India has not done anything against Russia interests and has not backstab them. India value the relationship with Russia and is not going to forget and disturb that. I am sure the actual situation is that the conversation is that India dealing more closely with USA will be good for Russia. If Russia wants to react because they are being treated badly that is not reality and India needs to deal with it. India has not treated Russia bad. It is different being open with a long trusted relationship that we have with the Russians.

The relationship with USA is good for Russia from one side it reduce and change PRC linear ascendancy (and history and connection it has with Russia) to the other extreme side that it helps in product improvement that can be shared and compared to Russia military hardware with purpose that it will improve and help Russian industry in the long-term.

If Russia deals with Pakistan the only country that benefits is PRC. It is like North Korea. If Russia supplies military hardware to North Korea the only benefit is PRC. Why and how this is being overshadowed by Indian getting closer with USA is moving away from the real discussion that needs to take place.

Russia relationship with PRC
Let us stop treating Russia as an enigma or a great power (same applies on the US). Russia is not even a shadow of it's glorious past (USSR). We must use our transactional power to impress upon Russia that it must not venture into our region.

Let us Stop using emotive words like "back-stabbing" and "value the relationship". India must try to get the best deal for herself and stop thinking beyond that. Being SELFISH and CUNNING is a good quality in geopolitics.
 

pmaitra

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@Compersion,

Russia might sell to India's enemy, but is that backstabbing of realpolitik?
India might buy from Russia's enemy, but is that backstabbing or realpolitik?

I would go with realpolitik.

In politics there is no permanent friend or enemy. India wishes Russia no harm and Russia knows that, and Russia wishes India no harm, and India knows that.

In the long run, Indo-Russia friendship will get stronger, because, (1) PRC has it own territorial ambitions on India and Russia, (2) PRC fought territorial wars with India and Russia (USSR), and (3) Neither India nor Russia trusts PRC, but is compelled to deal with it due to, again, realpolitik, of which economics is a part.

Coming to US, it will never harm PRC. US and PRC economies are closely tied - at least not in the next 20 years. The US would rather like to use India as a hedge against PRC. We do not need another encouragement for another Forward Policy.

Now, Vietnam got India to watch its back, and has itself gone ahead to explore the Arctic with Russia.
Vietnam And India Sign Oil, Naval Agreement Amid South China Sea Disputes, Angering Beijing
Gazprom Picks Vietnam to Tap Russia's Arctic Sea Oil Deposit - Bloomberg

Everyone is looking out for their own interests. It is all realpolitik. Talking about "backstabbing" and "red-lines," well, it sells newspapers.
 
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Compersion

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Let us stop treating Russia as an enigma or a great power (same applies on the US). Russia is not even a shadow of it's glorious past (USSR). We must use our transactional power to impress upon Russia that it must not venture into our region.

Let us Stop using emotive words like "back-stabbing" and "value the relationship". India must try to get the best deal for herself and stop thinking beyond that. Being SELFISH and CUNNING is a good quality in geopolitics.
The principle of having a consistent, well defined with certain (good) values in a foreign policy relationship goes beyond being selfish and cunning in the long-term. We can be selfish and cunning and i agree we need to be since we need to take care of our selves but it needs to be done with maturity and with proper direction but it can be overlooked from what is there and was there in the past. Russia today is still a big power and never forget they are on the UNSC and also a major oil supplier and military power. The areas where India can rely on Russia always in times. But USA relationship is there and needs to be cultivated and it will not be against Russia.
 

Compersion

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Pakistan has threatened the Americans and one can remember from one side when Paki foreign officer jumping and about to strangle a American because of closeness with India to the more recent side where Musharraf saying that USA will have direct confrontation with Pakistan if it tries to take out its nukes.
 

Compersion

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@Compersion,

Russia might sell to India's enemy, but is that backstabbing of realpolitik?
India might buy from Russia's enemy, but is that backstabbing or realpolitik?

I would go with realpolitik.

In politics there is no permanent friend or enemy. India wishes Russia no harm and Russia knows that, and Russia wishes India no harm, and India knows that.

In the long run, Indo-Russia friendship will get stronger, because, (1) PRC has it own territorial ambitions on India and Russia, (2) PRC fought territorial wars with India and Russia (USSR), and (3) Neither India nor Russia trusts PRC, but is compelled to deal with it due to, again, realpolitik, of which economics is a part.

Coming to US, it will never harm PRC. US and PRC economies are closely tied - at least not in the next 20 years. The US would rather like to use India as a hedge against PRC. We do not need another encouragement for another Forward Policy.

Now, Vietnam got India to watch its back, and has itself gone ahead to explore the Arctic with Russia.
Vietnam And India Sign Oil, Naval Agreement Amid South China Sea Disputes, Angering Beijing
Gazprom Picks Vietnam to Tap Russia's Arctic Sea Oil Deposit - Bloomberg

Everyone is looking out for their own interests. It is all realpolitik. Talking about "backstabbing" and "red-lines," well, it sells newspapers.
Totally agree :namaste:

The current visit of Putin needs to be seen with realpolitik dynamics especially between Russia and PRC and USA and PRC and PRC and India and not India - Pakistan which is being played out.

One thing about the USA is that it played fair and allowed PRC to gain economically. But has PRC played fair in its economics. The next 20 years will be about realpolitik + fairness in my opinion.
 
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Razor

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In the long run, Indo-Russia friendship will get stronger, because, (1) PRC has it own territorial ambitions on India and Russia, (2) PRC fought territorial wars with India and Russia (USSR), and (3) Neither India nor Russia trusts PRC, but is compelled to deal with it due to, again, realpolitik, of which economics is a part.

Coming to US, it will never harm PRC. US and PRC economies are closely tied - at least not in the next 20 years. The US would rather like to use India as a hedge against PRC. We do not need another encouragement for another Forward Policy.


Everyone is looking out for their own interests. It is all realpolitik. Talking about "backstabbing" and "red-lines," well, it sells newspapers.

This is why I was also thinking that generally it is good if India-Russia relations improve.
But you seem to suggest that they will improve, but I think there is no guarantee for that and that there needs to be effort put in tht direction. As of now our interests do not clash and we have a possible common neighborhood threat: China.

Also could it be that American moves are aimed at pushing India in a direction different from BRICS by creating hostility b/w India and Russia, China ?
 

Zebra

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I am saying what I am saying. Read it again.

Looks like you are more interested in who is anti-US, and least interested in who is anti-India (or potentially anti-India).

Think about India's interests for a change.
Sir, you know it very well what I am talking about.

And other members also knows what is in India's interests.

Right now stay away from Russia that is in India's interests.

You are dying to prove that US is trouble maker for India, but that is not true.

If India prefer to stay with Russia and cold war get started then India will get its a$$ kicked bcz it is on Russian side.

But if India prefer to stay with US then entire story will be all different, which you are not ready to accept.

Regarding your obsession with the posterior, I am in favour of safeguarding India from that one who likes to kick India in the posterior (US), instead of kissing its posterior. We may disagree.
Stay with US, that is the best for India.

I care. I don't want East India Company version 2.

P.S.: We are talking about a multi-polar world, not about building electricity power plants.
In which context I used electricity and multipolar world in my post, that you knows better.

And that East India Company version 2 is very old crap, doesn't make sense in 2014.
 

Zebra

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@Casper, you are too theoretical. The fact remains the empire does not like India. Indians are there only to be used, to be taken advantage of.
Your dream is very far from reality. A dream is a dream, it vanishes with the first ray of light in the morning.

There is no commonality between India and USA. Democracy is not a great bond. Even Pakistan has no commonality with Uncle. It is just that Uncle likes Pakistan because Uncle is in bed with Sunni States, and Pakistan keeps India in check.
Who told you that?
 
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Prometheus

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Before we discuss about the depth of defence relation between India and US, we have to understand the basic framework or policies on which the defence relation between India and USA is getting built.
Most defence contracts between India and USA could work around these basic building blocks, becuase in my opinion thats how politics work. Politics between countries are built on policies and not on hunch.
=========

INDIA-US DEFENCE RELATIONS

India-US military relations derive from a common belief in freedom, democracy, and the rule of law, and seek to advance shared security interests. The defence cooperation and engagement between the two countries has increased significantly over the past decade, in step with the overall deepening of India-US relations. The 2005 New Framework Agreement has laid strong foundations leading to mutually beneficial defence cooperation activities through security dialogue, service-level exchanges, defence exercises and defence trade & technology collaboration. While Raksha Mantri Shri AK Antony visited Washington in September 2010, former Defence Secretary Mr Leon Panetta visited New Delhi in June 2012 and asserted the importance of strong security relationship with India.
ha ha this is almost laughable.... would have sounded good and romantic in the 70-80's, when the world was being motivated by the US against the EVIL communists, but seriously in todays day and age?. Democracy and the US? IRAN- Afghanistan democratically elected govt overthrown, Chile, Ecuador, Venezuela, Argentina, Panama, same story.

The middle east, all the monarchs are best friends with the US president who help them keep their kingdoms . Pakistan, US govt eager to do business with the military dictator. Africa Idi Amin in Ugandan, Somalia same story .......
 
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sgarg

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Very long discussion above but misses a key point. Russians and Indians like each other as people. 45% of Russians view India favorably. The governments may change and politics may change but there is a durable bond between the people.

Do Indians have such a bond with Pakistani or Chinese??

How may Americans view India favorably? 66%. So more Americans like India. This is the statistic that trumps politics.

We should focus on people and build bonds with people.
 

Ray

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Sir, you know it very well what I am talking about.

And other members also knows what is in India's interests.

Right now stay away from Russia that is in India's interests.

You are dying to prove that US is trouble maker for India, but that is not true.

If India prefer to stay with Russia and cold war get started then India will get its a$$ kicked bcz it is on Russian side.

But if India prefer to stay with US then entire story will be all different, which you are not ready to accept.



Stay with US, that is the best for India.



In which context I used electricity and multipolar world in my post, that you knows better.

And that East India Company version 2 is very old crap, doesn't make sense in 2014.
Read post #7798
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/europe-russia/61895-civil-war-ukraine-520.html#post975488

Stay with no one and just playing your cards right in this circus that is being enacted.
 

Zebra

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Interesting question. Dont know how to answer your question. You behave like a child that turns each statement into a question.
It is not my fault sir, you make childish statements.

And that is why I have to ask you, 'who told you that?'
 

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