Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

[ManhattanProject]

God their recoil control is atrocious. How many Yudh Abhyas and Vajra Prahaars will it take before the infantry can actually learn to shoot a gun?? Even 7.62x51mm gun shouldn't be reaching for the skies like that!!!

recoil looks normal to me.
Maybe you should go teach them proper technique to eliminate the recoil of a 7.62mm rifle completely.

 

[Phantom sierra]

Whether recoil is normal or not is something best the professionals on the forum can evaluate. But i agree with the explanation given by @Marliii our boys are used to insas and ak, getting used to a battle rifle will take some time .

Let's not doubt the ability of our men,they have hunted down terrorists in the harshest of terrain and that can't be done without ability and skill.

 

[Narendra s rawat]

I just did mate. and it's a 7.62, not a howitzer. That isn't "normal" recoil mitigation by any stretch.

Observe the shooting stance they are firing uphill in elevated prone stance offcorse upward recoil will increase though it can be reduced by vertical grip.

Oh and the US already won the Afghan war a long time ago. The US invaded Afghanistan when the Taliban refused to handover the Al Qaida, after which the Talibani government was promptly taken down by the US military within three months. The US remains in Afghanistan in a limited capacity to support the Afghan government who is fighting an insurgency with the Taliban. The US can stay as long as it wishes and the Taliban must negotiate because they cannot make the US leave. The US has lost 3,000 soldiers, the Taliban has lost 35,000. The US's current operational mandate is to build up the Afghan goverment and military so that it can fend for itself and leave when it's favourable to them. As far as the war is concerned the US achieved it's chosed objective of it's invasion to driving out Al Qaida from Afghanistan and as well as ending the Taliban regime. Talibani resistance doesn't equal defeat by any stretch. The Americans are going to leave behind an Afghan government and a country that wasn't being torn apart by war lords while also making the Taliban contest for democratic elections like a little American bitch, meanwhile we still haven't figured out an effective game plan as to how we're going to end the Kashmiri insurgency despite having fought for three decades starting even before the US invasion of afghanistan.
Then there's the fact that shooting technique dictates individual performance, not military strategy.

First off all US didn't won war in Afghanistan Even Americans didn't believe that and there not gonna withdraw troops from Afghanistan now that Uncle Biden in charge.

Taliban is American bitch what a joke.
We don't negotiate with terrorist-Uncle Sam
They are negotiating Taliban is the biggest joke negotiation with Taliban means America considered Taliban as one of the major power holder of Afghanistan. Imagine if Modi govt negotiate with Jem what will be indian response.
American gonna leave behind another war torn country same as Iraq.

It is a old data currently Us casualty stands at 7504. US gone in war with 23 major countries, major logistic, financial support and after 30years Taliban is still stronger than Afghani govt.
In 1990 army was fighting Soviet warhardend fidayeens during that time security forces faced massive casualty it come under today because of several badass soldier. Para SF are often criticised in this forum which is pretty much valid in today condition but they were the reason we were able to get upperhand in Kashmir in 1990. Nowadays even CRPF are able to undertake CI\CT ops. After revokation of article 370 insurgency has gone done.

 

[ezsasa]

It isn't that I doubt their competence as soldiers themselves, I know enough about infantry combat to also know that it's strategy and tactics that dictate victory or defeat. What I don't like is when people knowingly throw excuses regarding the army's taught small arms technique when it's obvious there is a problem. Living in a shell and convincing yourself you're the best doesn't make you a better fighter, being humble and open to criticism does. The Military's job is to be the best it can be in securing the borders with the best outcome possible, not to CONVINCE itself it's the best because of the wars we won, the last one being 20 years ago. That's how you become the Pakistani military. It's about being as combat effective as possible regardless of past pride, not protecting your perceived image from the clueless public. If you talk to an army officer, THEY'LL AGREE AS WELL.

They're professional warriors, not PR strategists like the Chinese.

You had your say on this topic, I suggest you have this debate with a professional.

 

[Narendra s rawat]

Like I said. The US already completed it's stated objective for which it went to war in the first place. It invaded Afghanistan, ousted the Taliban and crippled Al Qaida. It achieved it's military objective to push Al Qaida presence from Afghanistan, now it's goal is to build the Afghan military, police and government to handle it's own affairs. You're confusing the reason to start the war being to fight the Taliban, and not to end Al Qaida's presence in Afghanistan.
Your casualty report is wrong. The US itself had lost around 2372 troops as of 28th July 2018 by official sources and the entire coalition in fact has lost around 3500 not withstanding afghan military losses.

Oh and your thesis regarding the prone shooting is incorrect. You can clearly see the troops are bent inwards and are pronated from the photo, not to mention that itself has little effect on recoil. The greatest recoil control comes from what your support arm is doing followed by whether your stock has a hard point to push against. Even if this scenario was the case, it would cause pain on the collar bone, not recoil problems. And the reason their muzzle is climbing up is because of a weak support hand. Bad stock placement causes bad sight allignment after each shot, not muzzle climb.

Us objective are completed really.
If US leave the Afghanistan it won't take much time for Taliban to control whole Afghanistan
and with Taliban in control you didn't have a peace in Afghanistan nor in America.
Afghani army are the reason why Taliban is well supplied with latest American weapons.
7000 including Pvt contactor and you know which army this contractors hail from mister and also these 66000 afghani personal also if you consider them as human also.
I am sorry for my wrong insight of that picture
you are correct about there stance but even if you are shooting Ar-10 uphill from elevated stance you will face greater upward recoil.

 

[Narendra s rawat]

We should continue this somewhere else before the Mod (Sorry mod) gets angry but the US will not leave until the Taliban finally agree to a peace deal where they contest elections. The Taliban simply do not have enough leverage to play with. And I don't believe the Taliban will make the mistake of attacking the US itself again, that would go no where. Instead they'll simply focus on keeping their own and consolidating power in Afghanistan if they go militant again. Should they try to spread, they'll come for India either through Pakistan first or with it (Probably with it) due to our already vulnerable and festering problem in Kashmir.

Okay I agree with you we should really discuss this in relavent trend.
But compromises are not made from Taliban camp it is made from American camp.
They have to go against there policy of we don't negotiate with terrorist.
Taliban originate from Islamic supramacist ideology they don't care who they are attacking.
Right now also there are limited Afghani ex talbiani fighters are present in valley.
I really want to see Taliban crused and stable Afghan govt but it is far away from reality.

 

[Killbot]

What a loathing statement. If there were dislike buttons i would have disliked it 10000 times.
Blatant show of abhorrence towards the poor Indian soldiers efforts and their skills.

So I would like to ask such abstract expert how do they measure the recoil handling,, any instrumentation to measure the force or mere from a visual inspection from a YouTube vid???? How??? Such are the ingenuity of such imaginary, good for nothing expert.

These chap's famous intellect shield is "experience on surfing on def forums " or "reading SF magazines" or some fantasy tales.

@LETHALFORCE @ezsasa @Indx TechStyle @LurkerBaba @Shaitan @hit&run

Mods this is how the quality of discussion deteriorate if certain trends are allowed to have a free run like deliberate besmirching.

Its now a frequent pattern in many IA forums to sully the capability, ability or tactics of common IA soldiers by dudes with vast experience in keyboardtyping, who got no real time expertise or are part of any active service.

IA had fought 5 wars and won 4 out of them with own innovation and tactics. So these NATO lapdogs of United States, who can not even win over in-house terrorists and cartels alone should refrain themselves of looking down Indian soldiers.

One can understand the call down of gens, Burocrats and minister as they are answerable but these wicked shenanigans should come to an end.

Any critical discussion should be construct by keeping in mind that indian conditions, doctrine for usage of any military hardware differs from rest of the world l, nomatter how funny it looks to others.

So MODs please try to bring in the moderation into this matter, otherwise it won't be much different than the Indian Marxist liberal's teaching to make every Indian to look down on their indianess.

Just because you don't accept it doesn't mean the truth will change. You are deluding yourself.

Nothing can be done with chest thumping idiots who refuse to accept reality. @Nincompoop's post may have been exaggerated, but that is because he/she wants the forces to improve. If you want a thread to ma$tu₹bat€, you're in the wrong place..

 

[Narendra s rawat]

Yeah that sums it

I really enjoy your thesis about recoil control some member are sentimental armed personal related issues but so please try to avoid using harsh words for personal we are also evolving RR on 1990 can't even compare to RR boys reflex, training in 2020 please continue to share your experience on recoil control, equipment etc.

 

[rohit b3]

Observe the shooting stance they are firing uphill in elevated prone stance offcorse upward recoil will increase though it can be reduced by vertical grip.
View attachment 71956

First off all US didn't won war in Afghanistan Even Americans didn't believe that and there not gonna withdraw troops from Afghanistan now that Uncle Biden in charge.
View attachment 71952
Taliban is American bitch what a joke.
We don't negotiate with terrorist-Uncle Sam
They are negotiating Taliban is the biggest joke negotiation with Taliban means America considered Taliban as one of the major power holder of Afghanistan. Imagine if Modi govt negotiate with Jem what will be indian response.
American gonna leave behind another war torn country same as Iraq.
View attachment 71953
It is a old data currently Us casualty stands at 7504. US gone in war with 23 major countries, major logistic, financial support and after 30years Taliban is still stronger than Afghani govt.
In 1990 army was fighting Soviet warhardend fidayeens during that time security forces faced massive casualty it come under today because of several badass soldier. Para SF are often criticised in this forum which is pretty much valid in today condition but they were the reason we were able to get upperhand in Kashmir in 1990. Nowadays even CRPF are able to undertake CI\CT ops. After revokation of article 370 insurgency has gone done.

In such unconventional war, casualties figures are not the sole deciding factor. As civilians, we can go to Kashmir, enjoy its beauty and come back safe and sound. Thats the success of our armed forces.
Can people say the same about Afghanistan even after 20 years of NATO involvement?
Same goes for Bangladesh. We defeated Pakistan and made a stable democratic nation out of it.
We went to Maldives and restored back its stability.
Thats success.
Going to Iraq, Vietnam, or Afghanistan and leaving a mess isnt "Success".

 

[Narendra s rawat]

In such unconventional war, casualties figures are not the sole deciding factor. As civilians, we can go to Kashmir, enjoy its beauty and come back safe and sound. Thats the success of our armed forces.
Can people say the same about Afghanistan even after 20 years of NATO involvement?
Same goes for Bangladesh. We defeated Pakistan and made a stable democratic nation out of it.
We went to Maldives and restored back its stability.
Thats success.
Going to Iraq, Vietnam, or Afghanistan and leaving a mess isnt "Success".

Where did I mention we were unsuccessful in Kashmir in my post I said we taken heavy casualty we learn,we evolved from over mistake this is the reason we have upperhand and casualty of armed forces getting low and higher body count of terrorist in valley Kashmir is stabilizing RR is the shining example of it. Nowadays CRPF QRT are also improved a lot for paramilitary org.

 

[Narendra s rawat]

CRPF is getting annual training from the NSG, it's a good plan.

Yes But I really don't get role of MP5 in NSG loadout. It should be p90 as pdw or carbine like MK 18

 

[Johny_Baba]

Well two things,
>Sig716i is relatively lightweight rifle firing full powered 7.62 NATO round
>The ones we purchased don't have effective muzzle brakes on it to compensate recoil,those have simple flash hiders instead

It already has shown some heavy kick on semi auto fire,here it's being fired on full auto so yeah it was going to jump around.

Edit

Just see how attrotious recoil was in OG AR-10 that is grandaddy of this weapon

Even a Heavy Built guy like Larry Vickers found it hard to manage it on full auto fire


and here is the solution = put an effective muzzle device on it if you expect controllable full auto fire from an AR-10 style weapon

 

[ManhattanProject]

I just did mate. and it's a 7.62, not a howitzer. That isn't "normal" recoil mitigation by any stretch.

a light weight ar10 is going to recoil like that anyways, what matters is the sights coming back on target quickly, which it does.
You must be a expert marksman with years of experience, maybe go apply for a job in the army, teach them whats what.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Yes But I really don't get role of MP5 in NSG loadout. It should be p90 as pdw or carbine like MK 18

5.56 can over penetrate, in a hostage situation people might get hurt..
again i am not saying 9mm is better for this role, i am just trying to find positives.

 

[Killbot]

5.56 can over penetrate, in a hostage situation people might get hurt..
again i am not saying 9mm is better for this role, i am just trying to find positives.

Nope, I've said this time and time again, 5.56mm doesn't overpenetrate. It does damage by fragmenting in soft tissue. Any load, even vanilla 55gr M193 has this effect. But 9mm NATO ball, however, will overpenetrate. Hence, 5.56mm is the best caliber for a hostage situation. There is a reason why HRTs around the world use it.. This is one place where NSG is behind the curve.

5.56mm wound channel.

5.45mm, however, causes damage by yawing. That is, turning in a violent angle upon impact. It has an even longer wound channel. It makes a huge secondary cavity in soft tissue.

5.45mm wound channel. 7n6 projectile. The infamous poison bullet of the Soviet Afghan war.

Larger calibers like 7.62*39mm just rip through the target.

.30cal Soviet (7.62*39mm) wound channel.

 

[Killbot]

I disagree with putting a muzzle break on muzzle breaks make guns louder which can cause further hearing deterioration and make it easier to locate the shooter, it also give a very noticeable muzzle flash signature and kicks up more nearby dust.

And flash and gases being spewed on teammates' faces.

 

[Killbot]

Nope, I've said this time and time again, 5.56mm doesn't overpenetrate. It does damage by fragmenting in soft tissue. Any load, even vanilla 55gr M193 has this effect. But 9mm NATO ball, however, will overpenetrate. Hence, 5.56mm is the best caliber for a hostage situation. There is a reason why HRTs around the world use it.. This is one place where NSG is behind the curve.

View attachment 719885.56mm wound channel.

5.45mm, however, causes damage by yawing. That is, turning in a violent angle upon impact. It has an even longer wound channel. It makes a huge secondary cavity in soft tissue.
View attachment 71989
5.45mm wound channel. 7n6 projectile. The infamous poison bullet of the Soviet Afghan war.

Larger calibers like 7.62*39mm just rip through the target.

View attachment 71990
.30cal Soviet (7.62*39mm) wound channel.

9mm wound channel. Forgot to include in previous post. .357 Sig has similar channel.

5.56 can over penetrate, in a hostage situation people might get hurt..
again i am not saying 9mm is better for this role, i am just trying to find positives.

That 12" is the safety limit for home defence acc to FBI btw.

Only low velocity velocity fragments of 5.56mm that are incapable of doing much damage get past that length of soft tissue.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

And flash and gases being spewed on teammates' faces.

That is a compromise for reduced recoil. The sig-716s are issued to troops at LOC, where in addition to a long range DMR role, it also can face sudden BAT action resulting in a firefight with an AK-47. Hence, the full auto and controllability is needed and hence the requirement of a muzzle brake.

PS: IA project management team, when working with RFI on the 7.62 *51 mm rifle made sure a big sized muzzle device is added onto it. Earlier prototypes lacked the muzzle device, but even the recoil was lesser than Sig-716.

Early prototype

Later prototype

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

That is a compromise for reduced recoil. The sig-716s are issued to troops at LOC, where in addition to a long range DMR role, it also can face sudden BAT action resulting in a firefight with an AK-47. Hence, the full auto and controllability is needed and hence the requirement of a muzzle brake.

PS: IA project management team, when working with RFI on the 7.62 *51 mm rifle made sure a big sized muzzle device is added onto it. Earlier prototypes lacked the muzzle device, but even the recoil was lesser than Sig-716.

Early prototype

View attachment 71995

Later prototype
View attachment 71996

This rifle had too much recoil as evident from the video of army general ( sorry I don't remember his name , but he had fought in kargil ) testing it .
He said too much recoil then itself .
I knew this weapon will not see light of the day .
Any news about progress of ak 203?
I have a feeling that army brass would order sigs only for whole army .
Off shelf of course .
This might have worked for Brits , but indian army is massive and not small like them .

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

This rifle had too much recoil as evident from the video of army general ( sorry I don't remember his name , but he had fought in kargil ) testing it .
He said too much recoil then itself .
I knew this weapon will not see light of the day .
Any news about progress of ak 203?
I have a feeling that army brass would order sigs only for whole army .
Off shelf of course .
This might have worked for Brits , but indian army is massive and not small like them .

That was earlier prototype. But still from the video of shoulder firing (by OFB employee) and waist firing (from Lt. General Joshi), it seems the recoil was less than sig-716. Try waist firing Sig-716, and jawans might injure their kidney region.




Compared to :



I think the recoil of Sig is even greater than SLRs in service with police