Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

[Tactical Doge]

Doesn't the armored face protection limit Vision of the soldier wearing it

GIGN type face protection should have been better

 

[Killbot]

Doesn't the armored face protection limit Vision of the soldier wearing it

GIGN type face protection should have been better

With way less protection. Might as well wear a covid visor against a 7.62 soviet

 

[Tactical Doge]

With way less protection. Might as well wear a covid visor against a 7.62 soviet

Trade offs
Better visibility will increase survivability
I'm more inclined towards situational awareness

 

[Killbot]

Trade offs
Better visibility will increase survivability
I'm more inclined towards situational awareness

I'm more inclined towards not getting faces blown off. If you want situational awareness, just remove the visor. Same result as with a glass visor. A hardened glass or polymer visor that is small enough to fit on a helmet won't offer any real protection.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Doesn't the armored face protection limit Vision of the soldier wearing it

GIGN type face protection should have been better

Significantly, but you could save your face!!

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Just realized on thing:

Lt. Gen Y. K. Joshi who is the Northern Army Commander and is giving many interviews to the news channels about Pangong Tso disengagement, is also the one who tested OFB 7.62*51 mm R2 rifle. He is a decorated Vir Chara from Kargil War.

 

[Gessler]

A lot of people seem to think the adoption of 3 different calibres of assault rifles is going to create a huge new logistical problem, the reality (purely in terms of depot-level logistics lines) is a bit more nuanced. There isn't so much of a 'new' logistical problem as there is an 'ongoing' one -

Calibres in use:

9x19 -- Hi-power, Sterling, MP9
5.56x45 -- INSAS, INSAS LMG
7.62x39 -- Various AKs
7.62x51 -- MAG MMG, Bren
7.62x54 -- SVD

Five distinct small arms calibres that pretty much every IA depot has to stock in order to keep all sections of infantry resupplied (riflemen, LMG gunners, platoon-level MMG gunners, 'Snipers' etc.). Of course I'm not counting the more specialized calibres like .50BMG or Russian 12.7x108 as their intended use is mostly in either emplaced systems or anti-material use cases.

And this is what the picture will look like in future (if everything goes how we intend it to):

9x19 -- Hi-power/future pistol, MP9
5.56x45 -- Carbine
7.62x39 -- AK203
7.62x51 -- SIG716, Negev/future LMG, MAG MMG
8.6x70 -- Scorpio/future sniper (.338lapmag)

As one can see - even though the ratios have changed, the number of distinct types of ammo to be stocked will remain the same, not much a 'new' problem with regard to resupply-related logistics. HOWEVER - what this represents is that in the process of modernizing the infantry, we had an OPPORTUNITY to streamline this and perhaps eliminate 2 of the rifle calibres by adopting a single high-intermediary cartridge (6.5 or 6.8), but we haven't taken that road.

@rkhanna @Killbot @Johny_Baba @abingdonboy @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

A lot of people seem to think the adoption of 3 different calibres of assault rifles is going to create a huge new logistical problem, the reality (purely in terms of depot-level logistics lines) is a bit more nuanced. There isn't so much of a 'new' logistical problem as there is an 'ongoing' one -

Calibres in use:

9x19 -- Hi-power, Sterling, MP9
5.56x45 -- INSAS, INSAS LMG
7.62x39 -- Various AKs
7.62x51 -- MAG MMG, Bren
7.62x54 -- SVD

Five distinct small arms calibres that pretty much every IA depot has to stock in order to keep all sections of infantry resupplied (riflemen, LMG gunners, platoon-level MMG gunners, 'Snipers' etc.). Of course I'm not counting the more specialized calibres like .50BMG or Russian 12.7x108 as their intended use is mostly in either emplaced systems or anti-material use cases.

And this is what the picture will look like in future (if everything goes how we intend it to):

9x19 -- Hi-power/future pistol, MP9
5.56x45 -- Carbine
7.62x39 -- AK203
7.62x51 -- SIG716, Negev/future LMG, MAG MMG
8.6x70 -- Scorpio/future sniper (.338lapmag)

As one can see - even though the ratios have changed, the number of distinct types of ammo to be stocked will remain the same, not much a 'new' problem with regard to resupply-related logistics. HOWEVER - what this represents is that in the process of modernizing the infantry, we had an OPPORTUNITY to streamline this and perhaps eliminate 2 of the rifle calibres by adopting a single high-intermediary cartridge (6.5 or 6.8), but we haven't taken that road.

@rkhanna @Killbot @Johny_Baba @abingdonboy @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

By when do you reckon that draganov and pika will be retired?

 

[Gessler]

By when do you reckon that draganov and pika will be retired?

The PKs to the best of my knowledge are only used by SFs. The intention of procuring Mk.48s (SOCOM version of Minimi 7.62) from US is indeed to replace the Pikka. So whenever they come, they'll begin the process of replacement.

SVD will stay on longer probably. The Victrix Scorpios have only replaced the SVD among frontline users of sniper platform along LoC and (what Pak calls) WB. The RFI to procure a few thousand (I think 5-6k) of sniper rifles in the same calibre (.338 lapua magnum) hasn't gotten anywhere so the SVDs replacement across the IA is a ways off, no less than 5 years.

But I've a feeling the SVD will continue to be retained for longer in certain use cases even with the option for .338LM sniper available - due to the SVD's nature as marksman rifle and semi-auto mode. Unless we put optics on SIG716s and start using them as DMRs instead.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

SVD is not going anywhere. There is a tender for their upgradation in which SSS defence is participating. Initially 100 will be upgraded and then the rest.

Apparently on 50% of 7000 round barrel life is used on an average with the in service SVDs.

 

[Gessler]

 

[Marliii]

Biggest knock off of indian money to pay charity to russia.

 

[Fire and groove]

Trade offs
Better visibility will increase survivability
I'm more inclined towards situational awareness

You'll find battlespace awareness comes more from clean, efficient comms and hearing as well as people covering their sectors. If it comes down to who sees who first, you're already in deep doo doo.

 

[Fire and groove]

Biggest knock off of indian money to pay charity to russia.

I wish there was a way to transfer the entire order over (budget and all) to the paramilitary units providing the Indian military with the CAR-816 (locally produced with SSS defence) instead as standard issue with M855A1 ammunition instead of the shitty deal we're getting. One might bring up training problems but seeing as how the military doesn't care about logistics anyway and the fact that (let's face it) the Indian infantry is poorly trained thanks to outdated, unscientific and out of touch training and poor fund allocation, I doubt it makes a huge difference. Let OFB suck off the police from here on out if you must, but leave the military alone now.

Infantry training and doctrine needs to be overhauled and revamped. Useless eye-candy shit that is so prominent in the military like that knee hopping tradition during demos needs to be done away with altogether and infantry should be prominently trained in CQB and small team tactics. Weapons handling needs to be revamped and should be more advanced. Also training needs to be streamlined and efficiency needs to be increased greatly, military communication and small arms education should be a part of basic education, and JCOs should be given better education, greater autonomy and influence doctrinally in teams than the do right now where infantry sections and platoons are still way too officer oriented. Also officer training needs tweaking, top brass needs credible education in geo-politics and the future of warfare from established colleges, universities and research institutes.

We need to expand our military education from the bottom up and increase our standards of recruiting especially in educational requirements. We need to establish a premiere sniper school and an urban warfare school with tactics developed and pulled from the NSG as well as inputs from highly experienced and renown foreign consultants like former ODA-D Pat Mac and the like, doesn't matter how much it costs. Forget officers, every Jawan in the infantry should have sufficient training in urban warfare skills and CQB. Wars are extensively centered around urban operations and it should be considered a basic requirement. It's quite likely that in a Indo-Pak war that the Indian army will face extensive urban operations especially if we are to hit Islamabad.

Costs will be extensive but it frankly has to be done, the fact that we're celebrating mediocrity is not a good indicator. The army needs to wake up and look around the world to get a sense of just how much infantry combat has progressed.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

 

[Fire and groove]

Pretty sure even the "military-grade" M4 costs 700$ at this point...

 

[Killbot]

Pretty sure even the "military-grade" M4 costs 700$ at this point...

$400

 

[ezsasa]

have to factor in the customs duty for imported capital goods for this factory as well as raw material(or parts) imported from Russia.

 

[Fire and groove]

have to factor in the customs duty for imported capital goods for this factory as well as raw material(or parts) imported from Russia.

Still very much not worth it. No rational military would pay a grand for a rifle that doesn't even have an adjustable buttstock today and has very little longevity. The M4 can be modified and adapted to the operators content, the AK on the other hand has very little in that regard.

 

[ezsasa]

Still very much not worth it. No rational military would pay a grand for a rifle that doesn't even have an adjustable buttstock today and has very little longevity. The M4 can be modified and adapted to the operators content, the AK on the other hand has very little in that regard.

Not taking sides..

But M4 is customisable because it’s presence in their civilian market and ownership of IP within murica, which is not the case with this AK. basic economic principle of supply demand apply.