MMRCA news and discussions.

[redpearl75]

Its not at all junk....

As human we are bound to make errors and a machine can only respond to what it has been told to do...

Raptor is the most advanced fighter aircraft into service till date and incidents like this is bound to happen at the initial phase, and if you put MKI on the other hand then its also the most advanced fighter jet in the Asia Pacific region and it also happened due to FBW failure, now the point is that the dependancy on technology is so hight that if it fails a human won't be able to master it, now both the aircraft crashed due to the errors made by pilots and hence we can not blame either the machine or the pilots.....

Both the aircrafts are one of the best in their roles so I believe it to be concidered as an accident only....

 

[venom]

MiG-35 sensor suite unveiled.

The latest variant of the MiG-29 being offered to India features an AESA radar and a full suite of countermeasures

One of the highlights of the recent Acro India 2007 Exhibit in Bangalore, was the public unveiling of RSK MiG's MiG-35 fighter offering for the Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. Though the airframe is the same well-known MiG-29M2 '154', virtually the entire electronic suite of the MiG-35 was on show for the first time. The aircraft avionics system has been integrated into the PrNK-35 fire control and navigation complex by the RPKB design bureau of Ramenskoye. All devices are interconnected by means of data buses compatible with Mil Std 1553B standard controlled by a computational system made by RPKB.

AESA radar

The main fire-control sensor of MiG-35 is the Zhuk-AE radar with active electronically scanned antenna (AESA) made by Phazotron-NIIR Corporation in Moscow. The mock-up of a preliminary variant of this radar was shown during the MAKS exhibition at Zhukovsky in August 2005. At that time, the radar featured a 700mm-diameter antenna comprising 1,088 transmit-receive (TR) modules (272 packs, each containing four modules); the antenna mirror was set at a 20[degrees] look-up angle. This design, however, turned out to be too heavy (450kg). In the next version the weight of individual components was reduced, cutouts were made in the radar body and a lighter magnesium alloy was introduced. Finally, the antenna diameter was reduced to 575mm and the number of T/R modules trimmed to 680 (170 packs of four modules each); the antenna itself was set in a vertical position. The overall radar weight was reduced to 220kg.

700MM ANTENNA WITH 1,000-1,100 T/R MODULES

This was the configuration adopted for the experimental Zhuk-AE radar (the original Zhuk-MAE designation has been dropped) produced near the end of the last year and installed on the prototype MiG-35 shown in Bangalore. The Zhuk-AE will start air tests from this March as the first Russian radar with active electronic scanning. Another prototype radar will start stand tests at the same time. For 2008, manufacturing of an initial batch of 12 Zhuk-AE radars is scheduled. The so-called "first stage" Zhuk-AE radar (also designated FGA29) shown in Bangalore is a modernised version of the mechanically scanned Zhuk-ME radar fitted with a new AESA antenna. It retains the existing computing system with data processor, signal processor and software, as well as the clock generator.

The Zhuk-AE/FGA29 radar can be produced by retrofitting the present Zhuk-ME radar. Phazotron will probably offer such an option for Zhuk-ME users such as Yemen, Eritrea, Algeria and India

The Zhuk-AE/FGA29 is a multifunction X-band radar (3cm wavelength), which can track and engage air, ground and naval targets. The radar in its present form has a search range of 130km against fighter aircraft (radar cross-section up to 5[m.sup.2]). According to Phazotron, by selecting the proper range between radiating elements, the antenna beam can be deflected by +/-60 degrees without parasitic side lobes. The radar can track up to 30 air targets and engage six of them simultaneously.

The "second stage" radar, designated Zhuk-AE/FGA35, will be fitted to the production MiG-35 fighter. It will receive a new computing system and new multifunction wideband generator. Thanks to this, the capabilities of AESA technology can be better exploited and new radar operation modes can be introduced. Thanks to the reduced size and weight of the radar modules, it was possible to move the antenna mirror back and therefore increase its diameter. The FGA35 will feature a 700mm-diameter antenna with 1,000-1,100 T/R modules (the present configuration comprises 1,064 modules, but slight changes are still possible). Phazotron-NIIR is now seeking the best method of heat dissipation--a critical issue for the success of future developments. The range of the Zhuk-AE/FGA35 radar will be 200km (for a 51112 target): the radar will be capable of tracking up to 60 air targets and engaging six of them.

Phazotron-NIIR designed and manufactured all radar components, except for the T/R module. In 2002, the Almaz-Phazotron subsidiary in Saratov tried unsuccessfully to produce its own T/R module. Phazotron-NIIR engaged two companies from Tomsk: Mikran and NII PP (Nauchno-Issledovatelskiy Institut Poluprovodnikovykh Priborov, Scientific Research Institute of Semiconductor Instruments) to produce the T/R modules. Mikran designs Russian monolithic microwave integrated circuits (MMICs) and TR modules, while NIIPP undertakes production on an industrial scale. One of the MMRCA tender requirements is the transfer of fighter production to India. Phazotron-NIIR is offering Indian companies a major share in future Zhuk-AE radar production.

Electro-optical locators

Other innovative features in the MiG-35 sensor suite are two electro-optical units--an air-to-air device (OLS-UEM) built into the aircraft nose and a podded air-to-ground device (OLS-K). Both units have been developed by NII PP institute (Precizionnogo Priborostroyeniya, Precision Instruments), a specialist in optical and laser equipment used for trajectory measurement in missile and space applications. The OLS devices represent the first application of the institute's technology in the aviation domain.

The OLS-UEM (Optiko-Lokatsionnaya Stantsiya, optical locator station) imaging infrared search and track device detects and tracks air and surface targets, as well as showing the pilot an image of the target for identification purposes. The unit includes a thermal imaging camera (with a 320x256 matrix) and a TV camera (640x480). The optical portion, including the scanning mirror, which is shared by both cameras, is housed in a transparent leucosapphire dome. The mirror scans a zone within [+ or -] 90[degrees] in azimuth and within -15[degrees]/+60[degrees] in elevation (with respect to the aircraft axis). Airborne targets can be detected at distances up to 45km in the tail-on position, or 15km in the head-on position.

The integrated laser rangefinder operates at two wavelengths: 1.57 microns (eye-safe) for training and 1.06 microns for combat. The rangefinder can determine the distance to the target from 200m to 20km. The weight of the whole unit is 78kg and the overall size is similar to the former OLS-29 electro-optical unit on the MiG-29 developed by UOMZ in Yekaterinburg. The prototype of the OLS-UEM locator was installed in 2006 on the MiG-29M2 experimental aircraft, subsequently transformed into the MiG-35 prototype. The same device, in the simpler OLS-UE version, is installed on Indian MiG-29K shipborne fighters.

Another electro-optical search-and-track device, OLS-K (Konteynernaya, podded), is used for detection and tracking of surface targets. According to Nil PP data, the OLS-K device can detect a tank from distance of 20km or a motor boat from 40km. The laser can measure the distance up to 20km. The optical channel, which is shared by the infrared sensor and the TV camera, is installed under a transparent dome similar to the dome of the OLSU-EM unit. The device also includes a laser rangefinder/target designator and laser spot tracker. The OLS-K is installed inside a conformal pod (length 1,980mm, weight 110kg) mounted under the starboard engine air duct.

Self-defence suite

The MiG-35 self-defence suite controls the warning devices (radar, optical and laser), electronic jammer and chaff/flare dispensers. This fully automatic system alerts the pilot to the threat, starts defensive measures and recommends an evasive manoeuvre. Urgent warnings are repeated in the form of vocal alerts.

The defintive configuration of the self-defence suite has not been fully specified. The most probable candidate among radar warning receivers is India's Tarang Mk2 unit, which is the standard equipment on Indian Air Force aircraft. The Russian option is the L150 Pastel unit. The radar warning receiver has three antennas: two of them (one on each wing tip) cover the front hemisphere, while the third, installed on the tailfin, provides 90[degrees]-azimuth coverage of the rear hemisphere.

The SOAR (Stantsiya Obnaruzheniya Atakuyushchikh Raket) infrared missile approach warning device was also developed by the NII PP institute. The device has two sensors; one of them, situated under the port engine air duct, scans the lower hemisphere, while the other, located on the top of the fuselage aft of the cockpit, watches the upper hemisphere. The SOAR can detect a Manpads missile launch from a distance of 10km, air-to-air missile from 30km and large antiaircraft missile from 50km. As well as detecting the missile launch, the device indicates the direction from which the missile is approaching.

MiG-35 sensor suite unveiled.

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[youngindian]

India Begins Trials to Select Air Force Combat Jets

21 August 2009


In India, trials have begun to select a fighter aircraft for the country's air force. Six aircraft manufacturers are in the race to win what will be one of the world's biggest defense contracts worth billions of dollars.In the southern city of Bangalore, Indian air force pilots have carried out sorties of two F 18 "Super hornet" fighter jets manufactured by U.S. based Boeing. The trials began Monday.

This marked the start of trials of six combat jets short listed by India, which plans to buy 126 new aircraft to modernize its air force.

Another U.S. based company, Lockheed Martin will be next in line to put its F 16 aircraft through tactical maneuvers. Others competing for the lucrative contract are Russia's MiG 35, France's Rafale, Sweden's Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

The contract will be worth approximately $12 billion - one of the largest defense contracts to be handed out in the world.

An air force spokesman, P.R. Singha, says the trials will be conducted in different stages over one year. Besides Bangalore, the jets will be tested in different climate zones - in the desert state of Rajasthan and in the Himalayan mountains. The final stage of trials will involve mounting weapons systems on the combat jets.

"As far as the field trials, the calendar is there,it is one after the other, the six aircraft, and in three places, Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh," explained Singha. "We have the desert sector, the high temperature, the high altitude, the cold temperature. These three [trials] will take place in India, and the remaining, whatever is left will take place in the place of origin of the aircraft."

The trials began after Indian pilots were trained in the use of the combat jets.

India plans to buy 18 aircraft initially. The rest will be manufactured in India under an agreement which will include transfer of technology to India.

The United States hopes that its blossoming relationship with New Delhi will help one of its two companies win the contract.

Rahul Bedi at Jane's Defense Weekly says it is very difficult to say at this stage which aircraft has the edge.

"It is very much an open race," Bedi said. "Most of the six competitors are broadly equal as far as their capabilities of the basic platforms are concerned. But the price as well as political considerations will ultimately decide the final winner."

U.S. companies are relatively new to the Indian defense market. The Indian military is mostly equipped with hardware from the former Soviet Union, but in the past decade, India has been looking to Western countries to meet its defense requirements. The biggest deal with a U.S. company involved the purchase of six military transport planes from Lockheed Martin. India is expected to spend $30 billion over the next decade to modernize its military

VOA News - India Begins Trials to Select Air Force Combat Jets

 

[redpearl75]

Well, according to what I believe, India should stick to either French Rafale or Russian Mig 35, as bot the nations have been of great support and cooperation. They ar reliable and we are well aware of their behaviour......

On one hand we have Russia which always helped us in achieving the technology that is superior by working with us on that plus has give the insight of the technology that no one in this region has, and on the other hand we have France, which is without any doubt a great supplier, Mirage 2000 as the recent, then we had Mystere in the past plus French machines are highly potent and powerful, on top of that they are upgrading the existing Mirage 2000H flrrt of our's to the latest Mirage 2005 Mk2 standards, and we have Scorpion Subs on the way as well...
The Rafale will have the RBE2 AA active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and a weapon loading capacity of 9500 Kgs and that's even more than the MKIs we have.... Plus it still falls under the catagory of MMRAC as its max to weight is near bout 25 tonns.... with 2× SNECMA M88-2, the only thing that's against the plane according to me is is the speed that's Mac 1.8+ apart from that its a deadly machine.....

Buying F/A 18 Super Hornets without a carrier is useless as its mainly a carrier bourn aircraft with a max payload of weapons of 8050 Kgs with max speed of up to 1.8 mac.... Now we have Falcons on the other hand from US that too Block 60+ with AESA, now this without any doubt a useless contender as Paks already have the machine maybe not block 60 but 52+ and the only differene between the two is the AESA and the confirmal fuel tanks but the airframes remain the same, plus Pakis will have a good knowledge of how the bird response to the joystic movements, and they have the machins long before us..... On top of that we can not trust US on this deal as they have an old habbit of putting sanctions on exported military hardware and if it does so in future we will have a multi million dolla warbird laying as only a display..... We still remember that the same happened with Pakistan when US put restrictions on usage of F 16 and this is also a confirmed news that US govt will give the AESA with some changes to other nations as its a matter of national security to them and thus they won't give the same powered AESA that they operate, to us.... It will have some limitations...... And we all know that US is in dire need of funds and they will try their best to get that by any means, even if it includes clearing off their stock of jets by putting in some glass cockpit, extra internal fuel tanks and so on... Guys they already have the airframes, they just need to modify that.....

Russia and France are offering full technology transfer with the deal.... Mig will have the Phazotron Zhuk-AE active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, the RD-33MK engines and the newly designed Optical Locator System (OLS) plus a full glass cockpit with FBW control and HOTAS..... It has an option of RD 33 MK Thurst Vector Nozzles as well which will boost the beast's performance..... It has greater weapon load capacity than the already existing Mig 29s that we operate and on top of that Russia is already upgrading the MIGs to the latest SMT standards.....

What I think should be done is not to acquire all 126 jets of the same type and origin, instead 53 should be Rafale and the rest Migs.... Only if its possible.... Man that's a dual punch that we will have and based on their performance we can evaluate the future needs....

 

[John]

Well, according to what I believe, India should stick to either French Rafale or Russian Mig 35, as bot the nations have been of great support and cooperation. They ar reliable and we are well aware of their behaviour......

On one hand we have Russia which always helped us in achieving the technology that is superior by working with us on that plus has give the insight of the technology that no one in this region has, and on the other hand we have France, which is without any doubt a great supplier, Mirage 2000 as the recent, then we had Mystere in the past plus French machines are highly potent and powerful, on top of that they are upgrading the existing Mirage 2000H flrrt of our's to the latest Mirage 2005 Mk2 standards, and we have Scorpion Subs on the way as well...
The Rafale will have the RBE2 AA active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and a weapon loading capacity of 9500 Kgs and that's even more than the MKIs we have.... Plus it still falls under the catagory of MMRAC as its max to weight is near bout 25 tonns.... with 2× SNECMA M88-2, the only thing that's against the plane according to me is is the speed that's Mac 1.8+ apart from that its a deadly machine.....

Buying F/A 18 Super Hornets without a carrier is useless as its mainly a carrier bourn aircraft with a max payload of weapons of 8050 Kgs with max speed of up to 1.8 mac.... Now we have Falcons on the other hand from US that too Block 60+ with AESA, now this without any doubt a useless contender as Paks already have the machine maybe not block 60 but 52+ and the only differene between the two is the AESA and the confirmal fuel tanks but the airframes remain the same, plus Pakis will have a good knowledge of how the bird response to the joystic movements, and they have the machins long before us..... On top of that we can not trust US on this deal as they have an old habbit of putting sanctions on exported military hardware and if it does so in future we will have a multi million dolla warbird laying as only a display..... We still remember that the same happened with Pakistan when US put restrictions on usage of F 16 and this is also a confirmed news that US govt will give the AESA with some changes to other nations as its a matter of national security to them and thus they won't give the same powered AESA that they operate, to us.... It will have some limitations...... And we all know that US is in dire need of funds and they will try their best to get that by any means, even if it includes clearing off their stock of jets by putting in some glass cockpit, extra internal fuel tanks and so on... Guys they already have the airframes, they just need to modify that.....

Russia and France are offering full technology transfer with the deal.... Mig will have the Phazotron Zhuk-AE active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, the RD-33MK engines and the newly designed Optical Locator System (OLS) plus a full glass cockpit with FBW control and HOTAS..... It has an option of RD 33 MK Thurst Vector Nozzles as well which will boost the beast's performance..... It has greater weapon load capacity than the already existing Mig 29s that we operate and on top of that Russia is already upgrading the MIGs to the latest SMT standards.....

What I think should be done is not to acquire all 126 jets of the same type and origin, instead 53 should be Rafale and the rest Migs.... Only if its possible.... Man that's a dual punch that we will have and based on their performance we can evaluate the future needs....

Firstly we are not splitting the deal, that's out of the question, besides even if we could spilt the deal Rafale/Mig bad combo, firstly two-twin engine aircraft, very expensive considering migs are very expensive to maintain and fly. The ideal combo incase of a spilt is F-16IN and Rafale.

Secondly, the mig-35 barely has any upgrade paths beyond 2020 and the Russians are slower in upgrading their aircraft. EF has tranche 3 and any upgrades seem way too distant. Rafale can go upto F-4, Falcon not many upgrades either, the only contender that has planned upgrades beyond 2020 is the SH block 3, now if by 2020 if we choose to exercise the right to acquire the 74 aircraft in options, SH block 3 is ideal. Block will have even longer range radars, a stealthier airframe, MATV, super cruise and combat radius over 1000NM. Ever since the APG-79 was introduced in 2005, it has already been updated 3 times with the latest aircraft carrying apg-79 V-3.

Thirdly in a one-one today none of the contenders would stand a chance against the SH because it can deploy the Aim-120D at a very long range and can carry upto 12 of them which is at least 2 more than any other contender, he has enough missiles to effectively take out 1/2 a squadron in a single sortie. Now the SH can neither be jammed and none of them can carry long enough range missiles to have the first shot. In BVR the first shot always has advantage.

Fourthly, though the SH was primarily a navy aircraft where it plays a crucial role, even the IAF recognizes its ability to play quick reaction roles and interception roles, not to mention its short take off and landing, very sturdy aircraft, new GE 414 EPE with 118KN each or roughly 53600 lbs of thrust reduces fuel consumption thus increasing range by over 20%. SH is also capable of detecting and destroying sea skimming or terrain hugging cruise missiles.

Fifthly, considering that IAF/MOD has sent the rfp to US companies as well knowing their behavior in the past to PAk, Iran and other nations, shows that IAF is willing to give them a chance. Also due to the SH this competition has become so challenging and the offers state of the art. Now purchase of P-8, C-130J (IAF wants more now) , GM 500 radars, etc shows we are willing to buy from US. our very own infamous Phalcon comes thanx only to the US govt.approval. Now Apache has no competition in the attack helo deal. none of others can neither fly as high nor compare to the Apache' kill abilities. IN and IAF seem very interested in V-22s, C-17s, AEGIS, M-777 howitzers etc. So your case against US is moot. Whether you like it or not we are buying more American.

 

[natarajan]

what about euva

 

[John]

what about euva

EUVA not only protects US but also our interests. The EUVA clearly states that we use the platforms for the 'intended use' which allows us to use against any threat foreign or domestic. The EUVA is more concerned with preventing leakage of technology and prevents us from selling our US aircraft to third parties without permission. The EUVA calls for annual inspection which has now been agreed to take place at a location of our choosing, at a time of our choosing. Other contentious issues include a standardized text of the EUVA. It was indicated that the text would be frozen and not subjected to changes citing amendments to the existing or enactment of fresh U.S.laws. In addition, the changes in the standardized text would be applicable only if both sides agreed to it. Those inspections are mostly long lunches where the so called "tigers' from the Pentagon have long chats with Base commanders, have a walk around and go home.

We also forget we also have access to US bases, we will have regular invites to red flag, training in US airspace, bombing/air combat exercises, we will practice a much more network centric way of warfare, such ample training is not possible in France, Britain, Sweden. Training in Russia is simply not so intense or advanced.

 

[fulcrum]

your opinion here doesn't really make any difference to the actual choice, the competition is a fair one and whoever can deliver all capabilities at good cost has a chance of winning, last i checked none of the aircraft can perform the entire roles the SH can on any given day, it can deploy upto 14 a2a missiles in a single sortie and a2g missiles than all others, has better avionics and IAF pilots who have flown it have claimed it to be the most mature in terms of cockpit functionality and ease of flying, can't mess with an aircraft that can deliver a lot and is easy to fly. furthermore India is not shying away from going for US platforms, matter of fact mrca, attack helos, heavy lift choppers, c-17s, V-22s, we'll be buying more and more.

Ofcourse.. it will be a fair one.. and IIRC, tot is an essential component of MMRCA contract. I doubt U.S will be giving tot on engines and Aesa radars. AESA radars will have constantly degrading semi-conductors which should be replaced regularly.

And there is also there is the strategic factor. Remember the pressure from the U.S during Kargil, the military stand-off after the parliament attack and the Mumbai attack last year. If the U.S has that much of an influence without the jets, I shudder to imagine what would happen if we replace a significant amount of our offensive force with U.S toys. And the threat of sanctions is always there. If in future if we go against U.S wishes for a war with the pakis, or we test an ICBM or explode another nuke, it's all over.

And the super hornet is terrible in terms of Acceleration, T/W ratio, corner velocity, Top speed etc.. etc. Which means if you get into a fight, you can't retreat if your opponent is a flanker. You have to finish it or be finished.. there is no middle ground. And less acceleration means, your ability to evade Amraams is severely curtailed.

IAF pilots said that? Could you give me a link?

Going for SH would be the worst strategy if we wish for a war with pakis. I prefer getting an inferior toy I can play with rather than get an unplayable decent toy.

 

[venom]

Ofcourse.. it will be a fair one.. and IIRC, tot is an essential component of MMRCA contract. I doubt U.S will be giving tot on engines and Aesa radars. AESA radars will have constantly degrading semi-conductors which should be replaced regularly.

And there is also there is the strategic factor. Remember the pressure from the U.S during Kargil, the military stand-off after the parliament attack and the Mumbai attack last year. If the U.S has that much of an influence without the jets, I shudder to imagine what would happen if we replace a significant amount of our offensive force with U.S toys. And the threat of sanctions is always there. If in future if we go against U.S wishes for a war with the pakis, or we test an ICBM or explode another nuke, it's all over.

And the super hornet is terrible in terms of Acceleration, T/W ratio, corner velocity, Top speed etc.. etc. Which means if you get into a fight, you can't retreat if your opponent is a flanker. You have to finish it or be finished.. there is no middle ground. And less acceleration means, your ability to evade Amraams is severely curtailed.

IAF pilots said that? Could you give me a link?

Going for SH would be the worst strategy if we wish for a war with pakis. I prefer getting a inferior toy I can play with rather than get an unplayable decent toy.

i agree....F-16 & F-18 should not be considered at all....

 

[bhramos]

yeah but what will we consider,
Mig-35 is a chepeast and best option,
EU planes are quiet costlier but technically not a bad option

 

[p2prada]

The SH is the worst fighter in the deal. Rejected by the USAF and later thrust down the USN's throat. Does nothing except drop some slugs on flat terrain and shoot missiles like the 4th of July. Get into a knife fight and you can kiss it goodbye before ejecting.

EFT and Rafale are simply out of the league of the SH. Viper is good while Gripen and Mig-35 don't offer anything new in capability to the IAF.

 

[F-14]

the Super bug is only a direct descendent of the YF-17 COBRA and it lost the LFX competion due to the fact that northorp couldnt retool its factories for production stright way and the USN adopted the Bug due to the fact that it need a MRCA of its onw sinces the Tomcat was puerly a FDF (fleet Defense fighter)and had only limited A2G capability

 

[fulcrum]

Its kinda funny to see folks who have never flown a fighter, or have had any flying experience debate so vigorously about which aircraft should be chosen.

?? You don't have witness a crime to prove the crime was committed by a said individual. Sure, if a crime is witnessed it makes things a whole lot easier, but it SURELY doesn't mean we have to give up just because there weren't any witnesses. To do that would be..

And besides, some of the published specs was measured by pilots themselves and then published.

the Super bug is only a direct descendent of the YF-17 COBRA and it lost the LFX competion due to the fact that northorp couldnt retool its factories for production stright way and the USN adopted the Bug due to the fact that it need a MRCA of its onw sinces the Tomcat was puerly a FDF (fleet Defense fighter)and had only limited A2G capability

You're making it sound as though that was the only factor. F-18 has severe raw performance deficiencies for its price, and as a result F-16 bagged the order. The navy had to go F-18 because of its low landing speed which makes it suitable for carriers. There was a damning report in the U.S on the F-18s fighter capabilities. The Australian version is much worse. They are literally fuming over their F-18 purchase. The word F-18 is a taboo in Australian Def forums.

 

[John]

ahh so much blah blah about the SH, matter of fact the SH and SV the only combat proven aircraft, the new engine for SH put its T/W ratios at over one which is good enough, the fact that due to its sheer capacity to carry a lot of missiles, you really think any fighter Rafale, EF, mig or gripen will get within a 100km range of the SH?? 12 Aim-120D which by the way has max. range over 200km when launched at very altitude at supersonic speeds. the SH can deploy effectively and ranges well over 140 km without having to go too high or too fast. Due to its long range and new avionics the Aim-120D still has a lot of kinematic energy while hitting a target 130 to 140km away, this will ensure, most of the incoming threats are destroyed well beyond the 100km range. The mig-35 cant even detect an imcoming missiles till its only 35km away.

None of the contenders can pull all the roles the SH can, need i remind you the tracking range for aircraft with 1m2 rcs for SH is well over 200km, only the Super Falcon has a similar tracking range, all the others have a max detection range of 200 to 250km, matter of fact i am certain that any threat will be shot down before the SH is even tracked or locked onto. no comparison, IRST for the SH will go on board the nose once testing is completed, its the first aircraft to deploy the world most advanced and mission flexible weapons and fly away cost is reasonable. It will be the first aircraft to receive distributive targeting, it can control upto 3 uavs, play awacs roles, full scale tanker roles to all aircraft, detect and destroy cruise missiles.

now in the event of a war, do u really think SH will the only aircraft fighting a war, our primary air superiority aircraft is su-30mki which is good enough to take on any 4.5 gen aircraft.

SH is upgraded every few years, EU aircraft are upgraded every decade or so. Block 3 will be ready by 2020. Its radar and engine have the highest MTBF, as to what comes in tot we'll leave till final negotiations. The Aussies you mention are forum based scum, they chose the F-18 SH on pilot recommendations and not the rantings of an old fart. In net centricity SH has no parallel or equal for the next 7 years. The recent F-22 crash which killed the pilot was caused due to G-LOC, now the F-22's G-suit allows the pilot to withstand upto 12 Gs, even with such gr8 equipment, the G-LOC killed him, now how many crashes can we expect while flying high G aircraft EF or Rafale both of which have crash records. knowing the Rafale, the French can't speak english for shite and teaching us how to fly Rafale, i am sure there will so many crashes, the EF is just a crazy aircraft, i feel sorry for the pilot who has to endure such physical stresses. The SH only has collision records, no crashes, wow. The SH can take on any fighter, sure it has an advantage at BVR but its missiles wont allow for any threats to slip through and if you happen to have two SH, working together they can defeat any threat or even a whole squadron of threats at over 100km. now in a full A2A config each SH can deploy upto 14 missiles, 12 BVR and 2 WVR, do u really think the SH will wait till the threat comes WVR to fire his missiles, its advanced AESA has jamming abilities, it can lock on to a target like the Rafale at well over 140km away at which range the Rafale might be detecting the SH but cant track it or lock it, matter of fact till meteor arrives Rafale has to deploy the Super matra or mica RF upto 60-70 km range and since any thing US make everyone here sick in their stomach lets not get the Aim-120C-7 for the Ef or Rafale, both of which are useless without Aim-120 C-7, he fires one aim-120D which can be evaded by the Rafale, sure but the SH fires another one, do u think Rafale can out run two missiles traveling at mach 4.5+ with 4 times better kinematics than the Aim-120 C-7 ??
The way you talk about knife fights sounds like BVR don't exist or long range missiles have no reason to be built and deployed. The 6th Aim-120D test was conducted from SH fired at a Q-4 which is a pilot less version of the F-4, its a fast and maneuverable target and so far Aim-120D has direct hits. According to test officials there isn't a single missile in USAF inventory that can do what the Aim-120D does with ease.

sure we go for EF or Rafale, we have to buy the Aim-120 c-7 till Meteor arrives which at 2007 prices was around a million pounds per unit and wont be deployed till 2017 when prices will easily reach over 1.5 million pounds. Atleast with SH we'll have access to longer range missiles.

So watch it while it wins the MRCA, if Darwin had a favorite it would be the super hornet and not the Rafale of EF. It is the most sturdy aircraft in contention

 

[natarajan]

what about tot ,if mig is selected india can develop another 4.5th generation aircraft with tot but will usa ready to transfer all

 

[John]

what about tot ,if mig is selected india can develop another 4.5th generation aircraft with tot but will usa ready to transfer all

tot will come, this is as we know the mother of all defense deals, competition will force all the contenders to exceed expectations. So US will give good amount of tot, may be even full-tot but i don't expect source codes for the radar and those codes are useless anyways, US has the largest library of threats and understanding and customizing the source codes could take a better part of a decade even for the Rafale. We might be able to add to the source codes but that remains a question of whether its needed. Ok we have had full tot for Su-30mki since day one, yet we haven't been able to come up with a simple 4.5 gen engine for the LCA, even with full-tot on the MKI's radar we haven't been able to develop even a simple PESA radar for the LCA. its simple TOT give blue prints on how to source materials locally, build and assemble them, it doesn't give know how on how to develop an aircraft, that know how has to come from local maturity of the industry. hence i can understand why rfp set a 60% minimum.

 

[fulcrum]

ahh so much blah blah about the SH, matter of fact the SH and SV the only combat proven aircraft, the new engine for SH put its T/W ratios at over one which is good enough, the fact that due to its sheer capacity to carry a lot of missiles, you really think any fighter Rafale, EF, mig or gripen will get within a 100km range of the SH?? 12 Aim-120D which by the way has max. range over 200km when launched at very altitude at supersonic speeds. the SH can deploy effectively and ranges well over 140 km without having to go too high or too fast. Due to its long range and new avionics the Aim-120D still has a lot of kinematic energy while hitting a target 130 to 140km away, this will ensure, most of the incoming threats are destroyed well beyond the 100km range. The mig-35 cant even detect an imcoming missiles till its only 35km away.

Aim-120D has a max range of only 180km. Recent R-77 variant ranges are longer than 180km.

T/W ratio more than 1 was achieved after upgrading the engines. The U.S would never agree to a tot for those engines.
And also just because something is combat proven in a USAF/USN step doesn't mean it would work in an IAF setup. Battling Bearded mullas by dropping bombs can hardly be classified as combat proven. Fight with a half-decent AF and then come back with the results.

None of the contenders can pull all the roles the SH can, need i remind you the tracking range for aircraft with 1m2 rcs for SH is well over 200km

? It's a well known fact that SH's radar can only start tracking at around 90nm for a 1sqm target. That comes to round 165 km. And the funny thing is, there is no open source data as to whether that figure is for Detection or Tracking. If it's for detection then tracking will be even lower.

now in the event of a war, do u really think SH will the only aircraft fighting a war, our primary air superiority aircraft is su-30mki which is good enough to take on any 4.5 gen aircraft.

That's what I'm saying. F-18, costing a fortune and is not even superior to Su-30MKI w.r.t Dog-fighting/Air Superiority capabilities, except for its Aesa. Spending 90mil and above for a strike platform(and remember this is the U.S we are talking about, the short sighted, fickle, political arm twisting and sanction loving country), is just not worth it. I don't want a whole bunch of $90mil plane grounded because of some shitty sanction from that country.

And w.r.t to Glock and all that.. All fighters get into that, including SH. Only in case of SH, your plane would literally tear itself apart while the other fighters will withstand it. 9G is the safe limit for a human, above that there's trouble. But SH can only do about 7.5 Gs.

Not forum scum, we are talking about ex Aussie pilots who are forumers.

I bet the French and the Russians will be working extra hard for an upgraded BVR is they win the contract. Already their latest long-range BVRs are on a final testing phase.

And the Billion dollar question still remains: WHAT MAKES YOU THINK U.S WILL NOT DOWNGRADE THE AVIONICS PROVIDED TO US???. 11 billion dollars is pocket money for the U.S. No way U.S would share/give it's top-notch electronics to us for some spare cash. Which means getting Aim-120D without downgrades is also very doubtful.

Getting tot doubtful, getting un-downgraded avionics doubtful, Getting sizable amount of Amraams doubtful(since U.S has a practice of storing BVR in their home country and only giving them when there is war..Amraams which we have paid for will only be given when they wish.. can you believe it.. those ****.), Possibility of Getting sanctioned is a reality, and also they barge in to inspect our fighters when they wish. How stupider can this get?

 

[natarajan]

Let us order eurofighter along with 18 su-35

 

[fulcrum]

^ That would be great too, but Su-35 is a heavy fighter... It won't adhere to MMRCAs specs. Rafale, Eurofighter, Mig-35, these are the 3 fighters which we should concentrate on Natarajan.

 

[Soham]

Let us order eurofighter along with 18 su-35

Why ?

^ That would be great too, but Su-35 is a heavy fighter... It won't adhere to MMRCAs specs. Rafale, Eurofighter, Mig-35, these are the 3 fighters which we should concentrate on Natarajan.

Except the Gripen and the F-16, none of the contenders precisely match the original MMRCA requirements. This deal is purely political with each country throwing in most of what they've got.