Mirage upgrade: To be completed within 10 years

[Godless-Kafir]

The Israelis can do it in less than half the price but the problem is GOIs offset clause for manufacturing and assembling it here increases cost.

 

[pankaj nema]

As things now stand this project is not happening

IAF will simply scrap its mirage 2000 when their life ends .

Mig29 /MMRCA /FGFA PAKFA / SU30 MKI /LCA MK2 and hopefully AMCA by 2025 will be enough

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The high price for the upgrade maybe a hint Rafele might not win the MRCA??

 

[ace009]

If that is the future of the Rafale, then IAF is better of NOT buying it. I personally like the Rafale, but from the Mirage deal, fear for the future of it in IAF.

 

[bhramos]

Indian Brass Split Over Mirage Upgrade Deal

As decision-time nears, some Indian defense chiefs are questioning whether upgrading the IAF's fleet of Mirage 2000H fighters is cost-effective. (India MoD photo) NEW DELHI --- With the $2.4 billion Mirage-2000 upgrade deal with France in its final stages, India's defence ministry and air force top brass seem to be split over the high costs and likely benefits to the country's future air power needs.

With the contract papers said to be headed to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), the volume against the deal is rising, top officials told IANS here.

Among points of contention is the deal cost to upgrade the 52 Mirage-2000 combat aircraft by French company Dassault Aviation. Taking into account $1 billion for new weapons and another $500 million for new facilities at Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the upgrade, the cost could rise to $3.9 billion, the officials said.

"The upgrade programme will cost the Indian exchequer $7.9 million per Mirage-2000 aircraft. But India is buying 126 new Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) under a $10.4 billion tender that is to be finalised in this fiscal.

"The cost of the new fourth generation fighter jet works out to $7.9 million per plane. Is it prudent to pay the same price for a swanky new plane and just an upgrade programme for a 25-year-old plane?" said a senior defence ministry official.

Confirming the raging debate, Indian Air Force (IAF) officers said this was the reason the contract has not seen the light of the day yet, though it has been in the pipeline for years now.

There was a strong push for the deal when French President Nicolas Sarkozy's visited India in December 2010 and the country's Defence Minister Gerard Longuet was here in May this year.

Among the upgrades planned for Mirage-2000 under the contract include night vision goggle compatible glass cockpit, advanced navigational systems, advanced Identify Friend or Foe (IFF) system, advanced multi-mode multi-layered radar, fully integrated electronic warfare suite and advanced beyond visual range (BVR) capability. The new weapons include 450 MICA interception and aerial combat missiles.

French firms Thales and MBDA will be the weapons systems integrator and missiles supplier respectively.

"In fact, Thales and MBDA were initially quoting much more," says IAF officers. "But even at this cost and age, an upgraded Mirage can operate efficiently for another 20 years and still be a potent, frontline fighter jet. The upgrade of the Mirages would provide it a fourth generation combat jet capability," the officers told IANS, requesting anonymity as they were not authorised to speak to the media.

India bought 52 Mirage-2000s in 1982 and fully inducted these into the IAF in 1986. Two of the planes will be upgraded in France, another two in India with French help, and the rest 48 entirely by HAL.

Another issue is the nine-year timeframe given by Dassault, the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) of Mirages, to complete the upgrade.

"In comparison, the same firm is quoting deliveries of just six years if it wins the MMRCA deal, on the lines of what its competitor in the final fray, EADS, too has quoted," officials noted.

"Not only will the upgraded Mirages cost as much as a brand new twin-engine fourth generation fighter, but some of the Mirages will be 35 years old by the time they are upgraded," they said.

Dassault, officials said, had in the original 1982 contract guaranteed 30-year plus 10-year life for the planes. "Thus the upgraded Mirages will have just another five years of service left, provided there are no time or cost over-runs. Then why spend a fortune?" they asked.

IAF officers also noted that Israel had also offered to upgrade the Mirages, but at half the price. But the defence ministry quoted an old policy that only OEMs could carry out an upgrade.

"The same ministry has called for competitive bids in recent months for equally complex fighter aircraft, particularly those from Russian or erstwhile Soviet stable," they said.

Defense Brass Split Over French Mirage Upgrade Deal

good to stop Upgrading of these planes

 

[Armand2REP]

Its what happens when you depend on a sole supplier, they are using it as a bargaining chip to force the purchase of Rafale.

The F-35, BTW, has a marketplace of competing suppliers for future upgrades. Two drop in replacement engines for instance.

Yeah mate, Rafale is so screwed. It has no chance in MMRCA because Dassault is ripping off India and she don't play that. This is the sound of Rafale...

Toilet Flush Sound Clip , Quote, MP3, and Ringtone

BTW... US canceled funding for the second engine so apply the sound above.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Yeah mate, Rafale is so screwed. It has no chance in MMRCA because Dassault is ripping off India and she don't play that. This is the sound of Rafale...

Toilet Flush Sound Clip , Quote, MP3, and Ringtone

BTW... US canceled funding for the second engine so apply the sound above.

That is correct, DoD funding has ceased for the F136 engine but GE and Rolls will continue development by self funding the F-136.

 

[lambu]

Giving Realistic Options A Chance

nice article on IAF upgradation programme...

There are several reasons why India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) should be disinclined to approve the proposed 'limited' upgrade programme involving the 51 Dassault Aviation-built Mirage 2000H/TH multi-role combat aircraft in service with the Indian Air Force (IAF). Firstly, there is the issue of the techno-economic matrix, meaning whether or not the high expenditure to be incurred is justified. To understand this, one has to note that the term 'limited' upgrade excludes the option of re-engining the aircraft. In addition, there are to be no airframe modifications, no changes to major aircraft systems, no modification to equipment bays, limited cockpit modifications, and minimum retrofit line-modification facilities/activities. This would mean that even if the Mirage 2000H/THs are to receive a brand-new open-architecture mission/cockpit avionics suite and see their airframes being refurbished and re-lifed to stay in airworthy condition for the next 20 years, they still will not be able to remain flyable till 2038 (due to the 35-year guaranteed service-life warranty issued by Dassault Aviation) simply because the existing SNECMA Moteurs-built M53P2 turbofans would have reached the end of their certified total technical service lives (TTSL) by 2029.

for further reading follow link below...

TRISHUL

 

[ace009]

Giving Realistic Options A Chance

nice article on IAF upgradation programme...

There are several reasons why India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) should be disinclined to approve the proposed 'limited' upgrade programme involving the 51 Dassault Aviation-built Mirage 2000H/TH multi-role combat aircraft in service with the Indian Air Force (IAF). Firstly, there is the issue of the techno-economic matrix, meaning whether or not the high expenditure to be incurred is justified. To understand this, one has to note that the term 'limited' upgrade excludes the option of re-engining the aircraft. In addition, there are to be no airframe modifications, no changes to major aircraft systems, no modification to equipment bays, limited cockpit modifications, and minimum retrofit line-modification facilities/activities. This would mean that even if the Mirage 2000H/THs are to receive a brand-new open-architecture mission/cockpit avionics suite and see their airframes being refurbished and re-lifed to stay in airworthy condition for the next 20 years, they still will not be able to remain flyable till 2038 (due to the 35-year guaranteed service-life warranty issued by Dassault Aviation) simply because the existing SNECMA Moteurs-built M53P2 turbofans would have reached the end of their certified total technical service lives (TTSL) by 2029.

for further reading follow link below...

TRISHUL

So, MoD will sink 10,000 Crores for some cosmetic modifications and enhanced A2G capabilities. Who is insane? MoD, IAF or Dassault?

 

[p2prada]

That is correct, DoD funding has ceased for the F136 engine but GE and Rolls will continue development by self funding the F-136.

That's gonna get really expensive. But the last I heard, DoD has the controlling stake and in case GE did build the engine, there is no guarantee the engine will be used.

Any thoughts on that?

 

[death.by.chocolate]

That's gonna get really expensive. But the last I heard, DoD has the controlling stake and in case GE did build the engine, there is no guarantee the engine will be used.

Any thoughts on that?

GE & Rolls intend to invest 1.8 Billion $ on the F136 engine. DoD want competition but can't afford it, so the prospect of GE + Rolls self funding the F136 is really good news for the DoD and other F-35 partner nations.

 

[Solid Beast]

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[Archer]

Either you have the money to keep the Mirage 2000 afloat, you throw them to rot, or you keep flying them without upgrades. Where is the big dilemma? It's an easy decision. GoI should spare everyone the headache, put their calculators and pens down, and make a damn decision. Time is the costliest commodity.

The best option would be the LUSH upgrade as done on the Sea Harriers, albeit with an internal EW fit. Reasonably effective at moderate cost, done quick. Only problem is France would play hardball with spares for the overall Mirage 2000. We didn't license manufacture the plane, so are still reliant on them for many items.

 

[sathya]

i wish the upgradation problem comes to end, before more inflation and other things...
whether france or israel .. i am ok with both...
but it should b upgraded really soon, b4 any accident could happen

 

[weg]

That's gonna get really expensive. But the last I heard, DoD has the controlling stake and in case GE did build the engine, there is no guarantee the engine will be used.

Any thoughts on that?

Its going to cost a few hundred million to finish the F136. The F135 is significantly less powerful and the F35 is under powered, so the market is there. The F135 and f136 are fully inter changeable so any customer could buy it, the RAF certainly will.

I'd say the completion and commercial success are almost certain for the F136.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

i wish the upgradation problem comes to end, before more inflation and other things...
whether france or israel .. i am ok with both...
but it should b upgraded really soon, b4 any accident could happen

India has already lost 9 Mirage 2000's, as the air frame ages Class A mishaps will become more frequent.

 

[Tshering22]

Can anyone in a nutshell explain to me what is going on about the M2K upgrade issue? What is it this time? Overpricing; greedy politicians; French hesitation; our incompetence? What?

Sorry I never really understood what's causing the delay of already introduced and used aircraft.

 

[ace009]

The price dude, the price. The upgrades at $79 million each are costlier than buying brand new airplanes. India can buy the Gripen C/D for the price of upgrading the 25 year old Mirages.

 

[Parthy]

Can anyone in a nutshell explain to me what is going on about the M2K upgrade issue? What is it this time? Overpricing; greedy politicians; French hesitation; our incompetence? What?

Sorry I never really understood what's causing the delay of already introduced and used aircraft.

Earlier, Dassault has bid for MMRCA with Mirage 2000 5 and later to that to find a market place for Rafale which was ordered only by France forces... And now France is trying to play smart to get both MMRCA & Mirage upgrade....

IMO, we are too much getting into France hands.. Costing & delaying too much for Scorpene submarines.. Again quoting high for Mirage upgrade and not to forgot they (DCNS) currently upgrading Pakistan navy's Agosta submarines...

They're just here to do their business and not a reliable partner... Better not to keep all our eggs in France basket..

 

[Armand2REP]

I would be happy if it wasn't such a sad day.