Mirage upgrade: To be completed within 10 years

SHASH2K2

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I don't find any problems with this deal. The entire avionics suite is being replaced(including new radar and new EW suite). The upgrade also includes the costs of the missiles.

Also, the cost comes to $2.1Billion according to current estimates. That's like ~$40Million for each plane and its ammo.
at this price we could have procured new Sukhoi 30 MKI . why not go for new plane which is a lot better that mirage ?
I understand the upgrade is necessary as planes have about 10-15 yrs life left but its damn costly.
May be there is a deal to deny similar upgrade option to pakistanis as they were looking to upgrade their planes and negotiations were on with french .
 

SHASH2K2

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Iaf now wants whatever PAF is targeting i doubt how long this will continue paf wanted the quatar mirages and the UAE mirages have extensive PAF pilots flying them but IAF wants them now to shut any kind of sale to PAF mirage 2009 is a great platform and the main advantage is this will help in induction rate and phase out rate i doubt PAF will let go of this oppurtunity so easily after all we have brotherly relations with the arab countries


We should not get into this kind of race with PAF . We can get better planes than those.
PAF has access to varities of planes due to their relations but are they all good or best . If they are UAE will not be selling them.
Its hard earned money and should be spend judiciously.
 

SHASH2K2

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No thats wrong. India and Russia are negotiating price for additional 42 aircraft worth around 3.5 billion USD. so that makes each aircraft more than 80 million USD.
I read it somewhere that MKI produced by HAL cost around 40-45 Million.
I think recent negotiations with russians will have some improved features .moreover old sukhois will also go for upgrades as its almost 10 yrs old.
Till now I never heard Sukhoi to be so expensive.
If you have some refrence to support then That will be very helpful.
Even F 16 will be around 60 million USD .
 

plugwater

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I read it somewhere that MKI produced by HAL cost around 40-45 Million.
I think recent negotiations with russians will have some improved features .moreover old sukhois will also go for upgrades as its almost 10 yrs old.
Till now I never heard Sukhoi to be so expensive.
If you have some refrence to support then That will be very helpful.
Even F 16 will be around 60 million USD .
here you go
http://translate.google.com/transla...ww.interfax.ru/news.asp?id=126007&sl=ru&tl=en

Another link: http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100302/158066242.html
 

SHASH2K2

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Same link says "The new air-superiority fighters will come on top of the 230 already contracted from Russia in three deals worth a total of $8.5 billion."

It means either there is increase in price or there will be some improvements in new sukhois . May be they will have AESA instead of BARS .
I also read something about treating the aircraft body with some new coatings. donto remember exact name.
 

plugwater

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This includes the maintenance spares and all stuffs, so the rate is high
Same link says "The new air-superiority fighters will come on top of the 230 already contracted from Russia in three deals worth a total of $8.5 billion."

It means either there is increase in price or there will be some improvements in new sukhois . May be they will have AESA instead of BARS .
I also read something about treating the aircraft body with some new coatings. donto remember exact name.
There are no information available regarding the details of new deal.
 

plugwater

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India and France are all set now to ink the around Rs 10,000 crore deal to upgrade the 56 Mirage-2000 fighter jets in IAF's combat fleet. The first four to six Mirages will be upgraded in France, with the rest 50 or so being upgraded in India by Hindustan Aeronautics under transfer of technology.

Under the upgrade, the entire airframe will be stripped down to be re-wired and re-equipped with new avionics, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites and of course weapon systems to extend and enhance the operational life of the multi-role fighters by around 20 years.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...t-exercise-next-month/articleshow/5992058.cms
 

Patriot

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High cost of Indian Mirage 2000 fighter upgrade causing a rethink



French President Nicholas Sarkozy may miss signing of the Mirage 2000 upgrade deal with the Indian Air Force (IAF) during his visit to India. While officially, "negotiations are still going on", according India's senior foreign ministry officials, the reason for the delay seems to be that the high cost of upgrading the fighters is causing a rethink, informed sources told defenseworld.net.


The cost of upgrading the 51 fighters is working out to an average of Euro 45 million per piece which is well over the price of acquiring a new generation fighter such as the Rafale or F-16 which is around Euro 30million-35 million. India is seeking to upgrade the fighters with Beyond Visual Range (BVR) capabilities, Look-down, shoot-down capabilities, Advanced Electronic Counter Counter Measures (ECCM) and Multi-target, multi-shoot capabilities.

The total cost is around Euro 2.4 billion of which work worth Euro 1.5 billon will be directly with the French company Dassault and the rest for work done and equipment supplied by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

In comparison, India signed a similar upgrade contract for 62 MiG-29 fighters in 2008 for around $850 million which works to $13.71 million (Euro 10.28 million approximately) per fighter.

Further, the bulk of the IAF Mirage 2000 fleet was acquired in 1986-87 which makes it over 20 year old. The upgradation process is expected to take 7-9 year and residual life of the airframe after the upgrade will be about 15-10 years. A new fighter instead will have a life of 30 plus years.





http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensenews.jsp?id=5303&h=High%20cost%20of%20Indian%20Mirage%202000%20fighter%20upgrade%20causing%20a%20rethink
 

kuku

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Pathetic, these upgrades have been around for a long time now, we are going to be atleast a decade late in implementing these upgrades.

F-ing stupid of us to be so damn late in upgrading the best planes we had.

All the babu jis of defence ministry i take a bow to your amazing skills of delaying things.
 

Patriot

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IMO, either we should drop the idea of this up-gradation or should go for the part up-gradation. If going for the upgrade, the newest of the lot should be upgraded & the oldest of the lot should be replaced with Rafale. Idea is to get the reasonable value for money for the best of technology. In addition, maintaining Rafale along with Mirage-2000 should not pose much problem to IAF.

This will serve two purpose; Firstly IAF won't be facing fleet depletion and secondly a new advanced aircraft will added to meet future requirement as well. After upgrade Mirage will become more formidable with the incorporation of new features , importantly Electronic Counter Counter Measures & added fire punch with new missiles. With the addition of Rafale, we will get very effective SPECTRA suit,10 times low RCS A/C compare to Mirage & may be RBE2 AESA as well .

Hence, a perfect mix of both A/Cs can be worked out to get the best value for money against the best of technology & firepower.

Not to forget the MRCA bid is going on & IAF/MOD's focus is on best of firepower & futuristic technology.
 

chex3009

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Is Mirage upgrade feasible? As it will take at least 7 years to upgrade all 51 M2Ks of the IAF, after that the airframe can sustain only for another 10-15 years more, and we are spending almos $2.1 billion on it. There were news that UAE wanted to sell its advanced M2Ks, can't India go with that rather than giving this huge amount for just the upgradation or rather save money and induct large numbers of MRCA when deal be finalised. What are your take, pros???
 

SHASH2K2

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Is Mirage upgrade feasible? As it will take at least 7 years to upgrade all 51 M2Ks of the IAF, after that the airframe can sustain only for another 10-15 years more, and we are spending almos $2.1 billion on it. There were news that UAE wanted to sell its advanced M2Ks, can't India go with that rather than giving this huge amount for just the upgradation or rather save money and induct large numbers of MRCA when deal be finalised. What are your take, pros???
chex UAE offer was also considered but problem is that its very very tough to determine how much planes were used by them and how much life is left in them. Cost involved in upgradation is definitely a factor but we will be getting very capable systems and weapons that will transform it to one of the best in the business and it will be in league of Sukhoi MKI. Weapons also contribute to much of 2 billions and they can be used with other advance planes as well . IMHO this deal is costly but not too much.

And remember this deal was done mainly to force french to stop upgrade of avionics and Radars for JF17 . so this is one of factors for India going for this deal is to stop Pakistan from upgrading their planes.
 
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vijay jagannathan

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India seems to be pouring billions of dollars into defence procurements and funding defence projects. Hope they know exactly what they are doing. If they think by aimlessly going on a wild shopping spree they will earn RESPECT they are mighty mistaken. If they are doing so with a sound doctrine then its a different story.

The mirage upgrade is undoubtedly expensive in which ever we you look at it and whatever you are getting for it. Its certain Rafale will not win the MMRCA now.(If it does it will be another scam.:emot15: ) Moreover what better time to anounce the Rafale than when Sarkozy is here? It happened with Obama as well. But India did fill their plates with all the other goodies and ofcourse got their backing for security council seat.

I think with India going for Mig 29 and mirage upgrade at huge costs it will now want numbers and MULTIROLE WITH LOW MAINTENANCE COST. I think this means only one thing- SAAB Gripen Ng with AESA. It seem sensible since it will come with a Ge F 414.

Its a pity france decided to close down the Mirage line. Don't know what they were thinking. India could have brought the assembly line and done wonders.

Finally it does after all seem that the best plane in MMRCA does not neccesarily mean it will bag the contract. So move over others ---- come over swedes-- we need your backing for security council as well. With half the world backing India, India has certainly arrived or India has certainly paid for her seat. I wish she would have got it through her sheer prescence on the world map.
 

neo29

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Questions of huge costs dog Mirage jet upgrade project with France

India will ink the upgrade deal for Mirage-2000 fighters with France in the not too distant future but questions continue to be raised about the "exorbitant" cost of upgrading the 52 French-origin jets in IAF's combat fleet.

While the exact contours of the Mirage mid-life upgrade deal will be decided only after the final nod from the Cabinet Committee on Security, sources said the overall project cost was likely to ultimately touch almost Rs 15,000 crore.

This will include the Rs 3,000 crore or so share of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd ( HAL), which will upgrade bulk of the fighters under transfer of technology from French companies after the first four to six are "souped up" in France.

A joint statement issued after talks between PM Manmohan Singh and French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Monday said "discussions" on the Mirage upgrade "are expected to be finalised soon".

India and France are also working towards "launching" the co-production of short-range surface-to-air missile system called `Maitri' but all eyes are fixed on the Mirage upgrade.

It has been stuck in hard-nosed negotiations for the last few years because the package offered by French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator) and MBDA (missile supplier) was around 30% higher than what India was ready to pay initially.

"But the project cost has not exceeded our planned estimates. The Mirage-2000 has had a very good track record in IAF. After the upgrade, we will get a very capable, state-of-the-art fighter, which will serve for another 15-20 years," said a senior officer.

The fact, however, remains that if the Rs 15,000 crore figure is taken as the entire project cost, then the upgraded Mirage-2000s will come for Rs 288 crore each, which is enough to buy spanking new fighters. Moreover, the ongoing upgrade of IAF's 63 MiG-29s, under a deal inked with Russia in March 2008, came for just $964 million.

MoD and IAF, however, say the Mirage upgrade's scope is much bigger and sophisticated than the MiG-29 one. Under it, the multi-role fighters will get new avionics, radars, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites, jam-proof communication with data links, weapon delivery and precision-targeting systems, including the all-weather, fire-and-forget MICA (interception and aerial combat missiles) systems.

Having first inducted 40 Mirages in the mid-1980s, India procured over 20 more in later years. With a depleting number of fighter squadrons (each has 16 to 18 jets), down to just 32 from a `sanctioned strength' of 39.5, IAF is going for a mix of upgrades and new inductions like Sukhoi-30MKIs to maintain its combat readiness.

idrw.org
 

chex3009

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French President Nicholas Sarkozy may miss signing of the Mirage 2000 upgrade deal with the Indian Air Force (IAF) during his visit to India.

While officially, "negotiations are still going on", according India's senior foreign ministry officials, the reason for the delay seems to be that the high cost of upgrading the fighters is causing a rethink, informed sources told defenseworld.net.


The cost of upgrading the 51 fighters is working out to an average of Euro 45 million per piece which is well over the price of acquiring a new generation fighter such as the Rafale or F-16 which is around Euro 30million-35 million. India is seeking to upgrade the fighters with Beyond Visual Range (BVR) capabilities, Look-down, shoot-down capabilities, Advanced Electronic Counter Counter Measures (ECCM) and Multi-target, multi-shoot capabilities.

The total cost is around Euro 2.4 billion of which work worth Euro 1.5 billon will be directly with the French company Dassault and the rest for work done and equipment supplied by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

In comparison, India signed a similar upgrade contract for 62 MiG-29 fighters in 2008 for around $850 million which works to $13.71 million (Euro 10.28 million approximately) per fighter.


Further, the bulk of the IAF Mirage 2000 fleet was acquired in 1986-87 which makes it over 20 year old. The upgradation process is expected to take 7-9 year and residual life of the airframe after the upgrade will be about 15-10 years. A new fighter instead will have a life of 30 plus years.



High cost of Indian Mirage 2000 fighter upgrade causing a rethink : Defense news




No upgrade needed .. Just replace them with Rafale.. Case over.

http://asiandefence.blogspot.com/2010/12/high-cost-of-indian-mirage-2000-fighter.html
 

Armand2REP

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You can't ignore the life extension. The first batch received was in the eighties so those are on their way out. The last can't fly past 2020. MRCA or more Sukhois will have to be ordered to maintain squadron numbers as they go. Dassault was playing on IAF's vulnerability in numbers, they thought never in a million years India would scrap them so soon. FinMin was like, why pay so much to modernise when I can get new fighters for a little more? I can understand FinMin's position about cost, but they haven't done much to approve speeding up acquisition of new fighters. MKI is still on one line, MRCA yet to have a shortlist, PAK FA still unsigned, LCA has engines but limited numbers. That 42 squadron requirement just got a whole lot further away. They better start making some decisions before IAF shrinks below PAF.
 

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