Mirage upgrade: To be completed within 10 years

[LETHALFORCE]

Dassault and Thales in conflict

Dassault wants to sell second hand mirages to India, while Thales is pitching to retrofit India's existing fleet.

The Abu Dhabi Air Force and the Qatari Air Force earlier this month officially proposed selling their respective fleet of Mirage 2000 to the Indian Air Force. The Emirates own 68 aircraft, most of which are the more advanced 2000-9 version, while Qatar has some 12 Mirage 2000-5.

The proposal was carefully co-ordinated with Dassault Aviation, which is hoping to replace the Qatari and Emirati Mirages with brand new Rafales.

However Dassault is up against a serious obstacle in its India plans, in the shape of the French defense electronics group Thales. For several years, Thales has been negotiating a contract to retrofit the Indian Air Force's fleet of Mirage 2000 (IOL 550,564). India will opt for either one or other of the two deals on offer, but not both.

Top brass at Thales are proceeding delicately with their negotiations: Dassault has held a 26% stake in Thales since 2008, while the French government also owns a 27% stake. Thales sales teams, however, are still very much in hot pursuit of the contract (IOL 612), worth an estimated €1.4 billion.


http://www.intelligenceonline.com/corpo ... 91-ART-REC

 

[enlightened1]

The Abu Dhabi Air Force and the Qatari Air Force earlier this month officially proposed selling their respective fleet of Mirage 2000 to the Indian Air Force.

Well last time IAF approached them the price put'em off...what the hell everybody is selling India planes nowadays lol

 

[ppgj]

LF - the link does not work.

E1 - what was the price quoted for the qatari and UAE birds? any link?

i for one would love to have both if available - of course, if affordable. UAE ones are very later versions and most up to date. not sure though about qatar birds. if they come in 40 mil +/- 2 bracket they are really worth. also, while arresting the falling squadron strengths, IAF will need no infra nor have to train the pilots. india has infra for 150 birds of M2K.

IAF should look at this seriously. these birds are seriously good and their maintainence and operations in IAF have been very good.

 

[sob]

Reply to LF

This is great news. If the price is acceptable to the IAF then they should get the birds from UAE. Simultaneously they should also go in for the mordenisation of our Mirage 2000 planes.

If money is a problem then the MMRCA tender can be scaled down, but in view of the dwindling no. of squadrons and most importantly IAF loves this A/c.

If everything falls in place then this IMO is the most perfect scenario for IAF. They could not have wished for anything better to get them out the mess they are in today.

 

[enlightened1]

LF - the link does not work.

E1 - what was the price quoted for the qatari and UAE birds? any link?

i for one would love to have both if available - of course, if affordable. UAE ones are very later versions and most up to date. not sure though about qatar birds. if they come in 40 mil +/- 2 bracket they are really worth. also, while arresting the falling squadron strengths, IAF will need no infra nor have to train the pilots. india has infra for 150 birds of M2K.

IAF should look at this seriously. these birds are seriously good and their maintainence and operations in IAF have been very good.

ACM Naik once said in a interview that IAF was interested in the M2K-9 but the negotiations were not successful because of the price quoted by the arabs. Of course he didn't mention what the unit price was. I'll search for the source.

added later
can you give a reference for the bold part? thanks

 

[FlameNtroll]

Iaf now wants whatever PAF is targeting i doubt how long this will continue paf wanted the quatar mirages and the UAE mirages have extensive PAF pilots flying them but IAF wants them now to shut any kind of sale to PAF mirage 2009 is a great platform and the main advantage is this will help in induction rate and phase out rate i doubt PAF will let go of this oppurtunity so easily after all we have brotherly relations with the arab countries

 

[Armand2REP]

Iaf now wants whatever PAF is targeting i doubt how long this will continue paf wanted the quatar mirages and the UAE mirages have extensive PAF pilots flying them but IAF wants them now to shut any kind of sale to PAF mirage 2009 is a great platform and the main advantage is this will help in induction rate and phase out rate i doubt PAF will let go of this oppurtunity so easily after all we have brotherly relations with the arab countries

Thats a good point. Totally forgot those planes are often flown by PAF mercenary pilots. I don't think PAF will buy them because they have already committed fully to JF-17.

 

[enlightened1]

Iaf now wants whatever PAF is targeting i doubt how long this will continue paf wanted the quatar mirages and the UAE mirages have extensive PAF pilots flying them but IAF wants them now to shut any kind of sale to PAF mirage 2009 is a great platform and the main advantage is this will help in induction rate and phase out rate i doubt PAF will let go of this oppurtunity so easily after all we have brotherly relations with the arab countries

The JF-17 avionics deal didn't go through because France was not very sure about your country's finances..& not because of Indian pressure. By brotherly relations do you mean that they would accept a lower bid from PAF or just donate the fighters?

 

[mehrotraprince]

I don't think buying second hand Mirage is good option. Reason being
1. Jets needed considerable expense in upgrading their avionics and arming them.
2. Can never be sure about critical components (as will be without warranty).
3. Some AMOs(Maintenance organisations) are able to repair an aircraft after an accident or incident and hide the details in the log book, so always require extensive checks.
4. The Question about damage history is another important factor.
5. Less life span(being second hand).

 

[LETHALFORCE]

LF - the link does not work.

http://www.intelligenceonline.com/c...sault-and-thales-in-conflict,83363191-ART-SEN

 

[LETHALFORCE]

This is great news. If the price is acceptable to the IAF then they should get the birds from UAE. Simultaneously they should also go in for the mordenisation of our Mirage 2000 planes.

If money is a problem then the MMRCA tender can be scaled down, but in view of the dwindling no. of squadrons and most importantly IAF loves this A/c.

If everything falls in place then this IMO is the most perfect scenario for IAF. They could not have wished for anything better to get them out the mess they are in today.

we have the MRCA to introduce us to a new platform that will last until 2040 this does not exactly fit that requirement but this could be a good way to fill any gaps that may occur in all the acquisitions, development and retiring of older planes, but do not mix it in with the MRCA.

 

[Singh]

I will break your posts Troll.

Iaf now wants whatever PAF is targeting i doubt how long this will continue paf wanted the quatar mirages and the UAE mirages have extensive PAF pilots flying them

Not sure how extensive an experience PAF pilots have had on Qatari and UAE Mirage jets ? Any linky.
IAF pilots participated in an exercise with UAE AF and no Pak pilots were there at the time for eg.

but IAF wants them now to shut any kind of sale to PAF

Not surprising, this is IAF's job.

mirage 2009 is a great platform

yes

and the main advantage is this will help in induction rate and phase out rate

for both yes.

i doubt PAF will let go of this oppurtunity so easily

For the last 7 years, have been hearing of this "opportunity". And India has more muscle and money power.

after all we have brotherly relations with the arab countries

Pakistan as a "brother" will have no option but to forgive its "arab brothers" if they place their "strategic and economic interests" above "brotherly relations". C'est la vie.

 

[ppgj]

@Armand,

my original post -

my question was wrt an upgrade kit to M53-P2 to enhance the thrust. read it somewhere. will try and find.

i was referring to this -

Snecma developed a variant known as the -P20 with an A/B rating of 98 kiloNewton. The -P20 attracted no customers and has been superceded by the -PX3 programme.
The -PX3 upgrade focuses on an improved FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Control) based on the model used in the M88, a new turbine disk and a modified afterburner.. According to Snecma, the PX3 upgrade effectively replaces 25% of the engine. The performance improvements include faster acceleration, higher thrust rating and reduced fuel burn as well as lower operating costs.The M53 P2 has a relatively modest turbine entry tempature (TET) of 1327 °C and it is possible that Snecma will use the materials developed for the turbine of the M88, installed in the Rafale. The M88 has an extremely high TET and M53 turbine blades made of the same material could extend the life of the turbine considerably or allow the M53 to run considerably hotter which could reduce the fuel consumption. Snecma had previously suggested that full scale development could begin in early 2002. However, prolonged negotiations with customer nations and their industries, have delayed the implementation of the programme and it is now expected that following a successful conclusion the PX3 will be launched in the first quarter of 2004.

http://www.mirage-jet.com/Propulsion/Upgrades/upgrades.htm

any idea it has started?? is any french mirage is flying with this upgraded engine?? or has it been dropped??

 

[vishal_lionheart]

Can Someone give me answer that why Indian government choose costlier upgradtion of France instead of Israel?
I heard that Israel offer upgradation at lowest rate.
Why Govt of India spendthrift on such offer?
Please someone give detai explanation regarding it

 

[sathya]

Source code may be the answer....

 

[Agantrope]

Source code may be the answer....

You cant get a good upgrade other than any OEM. Also French would feel that if Israelis touch the Mirage for upgrade. It was taken onto account the relation may not get spoiled because of this upgrade

 

[Rage]

Can Someone give me answer that why Indian government choose costlier upgradtion of France instead of Israel?
I heard that Israel offer upgradation at lowest rate.
Why Govt of India spendthrift on such offer?
Please someone give detai explanation regarding it

Yeh, because they wanted the entire fleet to be upgraded with MBDA AIM-132 ASRAAM's, which installation would require updates to the cockpit and databus, alongwith new radar, EW equipment and HMS's.

Don't know if MBDA is open to partnership with Israel for the AIM-132. Armand will confirm.

The price is still exorbitant, some 46% above the Israeli bid.

The decision seems to be très political. And strategic (France, Pakisthan, the $1.16 billion JF-17 avionics thing, you know the whole shabang).

 

[AJSINGH]

If I can still count and divide, then Rs. 10,000 crores is aproximately USD $2.5 Billion dollars !!!!!!! ?????

Holy Cow........at current prices of about USD $50 million a piece, you could buy 50 4th or 4++ generation brand new fighters like the Rafael or the F-18 for that money.

For that matter if you were to go for the F-16 or the Gripen, you could probably buy a 100 for USD $2.5 billion bucks.

Is the IAF force depletion so bad, that they cant afford to wait for brand new planes and have no choice but to upgrade existing aircraft - this sounds like highway robbery !!

The French must be laughing their asses off till thay have tears in their eyes. Instead of buying a bunch of Rafale to replace the Mirages like they suggested to the Indian Government years ago - now they get to upgrade the old Mirage for the same price as a brand new Rafale. If the Indian Gov had done what the french suggested, they would probably have a squadron of Rafale by now and could slowly retire the Mirages as Rafales took their place.

As an ethnic Indian myself, sometimes I really wonder, if we are just plain f*cking stupid. Talk about pissing money down the drain !!

i agree with you but then lauching global tender , and buying complete new type of aircraft will take much more money than 2.5billion dollor , and these are very high end upgrade

 

[AJSINGH]

isnt Su30MKI priced between 40-45 million dollar ?

 

[plugwater]

isnt Su30MKI priced between 40-45 million dollar ?

No thats wrong. India and Russia are negotiating price for additional 42 aircraft worth around 3.5 billion USD. so that makes each aircraft more than 80 million USD.