Mil Mi-26T2 Halo vs Boeing CH47F Chinook

[pmaitra]

If it is heavy-lift, Mil-26T2 clearly fits the bill better.

W.r.t. spares, both contenders offer the same headache.

Either it is not about heavy-lift, or it is more to do with non-technical reasons - perhaps political and other considerations. The delay of Vikramaditya also eroded a lot of confidence with Russian factories' punctuality. Hope they make amends.

 

[Sridhar]

The result for the combat helicopters was announced earlier, and for the heavy-lift, it should be officially announced within a few days. But the sources confirmed that the Chinook is L-1, or the lowest in acquisition and maintenance costs in the official jargon.

Notably, the IAF has been using the Mi-26 for a quarter century now, and there appeared to be a leaning towards this machine because of familiarity and the fact that it can carry more weight than the Chinook. But Russia does not make this helicopter any more, and even with refurbished machines perhaps, its projected costs are higher.

The Chinook is a much more versatile machine, and the only helicopter in the world that can also float on water for launching and recovering inflatable boats with commandoes. In terms of operational capability, while the Mi-26 can carry more weight, it is nowhere near the American machine.

In fact, in the Himalayan heights, the Mi-26 has sometimes had problems in taking off and small runways had to be built to give it some lift.

According to Lt.Gen. (retd.) B.S. Pawar, an expert on rotorcraft, the newer version of the Chinook, which India will get from the US, is a proven machine and perhaps the best in comparison to other helicopters. "It is versatile and has proved as a great workhorse both in Afghan and Iraq operations in heavy logistic roles."

"Chinook will be useful not only in ferrying under-slung artillery guns and jeeps but also be useful for integrated day and night commando operations for which it is well-equipped," Lt. Gen. Pawar observed.

Boeing's Chinook set to win Indian heavy-lift chopper tender

 

[p2prada]

If production lines are closed then it never stood any chance since the beginning. It probably helped reduce costs for the Chinook though.

 

[mayfair]

If production lines are closed then it never stood any chance since the beginning. It probably helped reduce costs for the Chinook though.

But the point remains? Why only 15, seems a bit less in my opinion.

 

[p2prada]

The delay of Vikramaditya also eroded a lot of confidence with Russian factories' punctuality. Hope they make amends.

I expect younger posters to make such a claim. I don't understand how a person with your experience still claims the same as less experienced posters.

The companies are separate entities. Even within the same company the different products they sell have different gestation periods. Both Nerpa and Gorky came from different yards. One came with little delays and another came with a lot of delays. In the end neither of them have anything to do with, say, a company like Sukhoi.

It's like saying the Americans always delay stuff because Amazon shipped your product a week later than anticipated and expecting a company like Apple to delay delivery of your phone because Amazon delayed your product. So, I am like, WTF!!!

Out of all military projects around the world, there have been only a handful that are completed on time. I don't see other countrymen in Europe and Israel cribbing about the F-35 delays like we see with Russian products in India. Even the Pakistanis had to wait 6 years for their 18 F-16s to be delivered.

 

[asianobserve]

Different Russian companies? I thought they`re all owned Russian government .

 

[p2prada]

Different Russian companies? I thought they`re all owned Russian government .

It does not matter. If something goes wrong with your Drivers license and it's not your fault, will you blame the election office or even hold it at the same level? Both are govt offices after all.

It is not the policy which brings delays, it is merely the technological complexity and the allocation of resources which bring delays and this depends on the management and technical resources which is different for every company. For eg: In case of your own country, the MKI for India was delayed by 1-2 years due to integration issues with Israeli EW and some Indian components like RWR. But at the same time, the MKM was not delayed at all. Even today, if you order the MKM for the RMAF's MRCA competition, there won't be any delays from the Russian/Indian side. You may actually receive the aircraft before schedule and will also have the option of a next generation avionics upgrade package included in record time.

 

[p2prada]

But the point remains? Why only 15, seems a bit less in my opinion.

Maybe IAF believes 15 is plenty.

 

[Sridhar]

i wondered why only 15 copters? compared to 12 c-130j, i thought we might need more ch -47 to cover India

did a quick search , found

1. total no. of c 130 vs CH 47 built is - 2300 vs 1,179

Boeing Produces them 5 per month . Our requirement can be met in 3 to 6 months , Even if it is Doubled.

 

[Sridhar]

Maybe IAF believes 15 is plenty.

They are initial, and immediate, requirement .

The air chief disclosed that IAF would float the RfP for the heavy lift helicopters next year - possibly in fiscal April 2008 - March 2009 - to who ever manufactures them and that the machines would be inducted after thorough technical trials and examination of financial details as per the DPP 2006, possibly within three years after that.

There was an initial, and immediate, requirement of about a dozen heavy lift helicopters.

IAF has executed major relief missions during calamities like tsunami and snow storms but it is hampered badly by the lack of heavy lift helicopters that can carry substantial load on the one hand and withstand the mountain drafts on the other.
..:: India Strategic ::.. : Indian Air Force: IAF Helicopters

 

[Immanuel]

I think 15 is just the immediate order, I think this number should go upto atleast 60.

 

[p2prada]

They are initial, and immediate, requirement .

Which means a new RFP can be made. It will be interesting if we have decided to move onto heavy lift helicopters after the high demand for medium lift helicopters.

 

[pmaitra]

I expect younger posters to make such a claim. I don't understand how a person with your experience still claims the same as less experienced posters.

The companies are separate entities. Even within the same company the different products they sell have different gestation periods. Both Nerpa and Gorky came from different yards. One came with little delays and another came with a lot of delays. In the end neither of them have anything to do with, say, a company like Sukhoi.

It's like saying the Americans always delay stuff because Amazon shipped your product a week later than anticipated and expecting a company like Apple to delay delivery of your phone because Amazon delayed your product. So, I am like, WTF!!!

Out of all military projects around the world, there have been only a handful that are completed on time. I don't see other countrymen in Europe and Israel cribbing about the F-35 delays like we see with Russian products in India. Even the Pakistanis had to wait 6 years for their 18 F-16s to be delivered.

Give me some hard facts.

Gorky comes from Nikolayev, Ukraine, not Severodvinsk, Russia; which is experienced in making submarines out of Rubin's blueprints, but not Aviation Cruisers or Aircraft Carriers. The Russians should have known this, and they knew this, yet they made an ambitious estimate, and there were delays.

Sukhoi is great, and there is a reason why I did not mention Sukhoi. Mil-26 is not a mass produced helicopter, unlike Mil-17. Hence, my concerns. Just like Aviation Cruisers are not as many as N-Subs.

There are industrial complexes all over Russia that could manufacture many things. You could walk into one complex and see one section making washing machines, and the section right next to it assembling MiG-29s. Russia can do it well if they want to. The first things is to make the right estimate, with time and cost.

 

[p2prada]

Give me some hard facts.

Gorky comes from Nikolayev, Ukraine, not Severodvinsk, Russia; which is experienced in making submarines out of Rubin's blueprints, but not Aviation Cruisers or Aircraft Carriers. The Russians should have known this, and they knew this, yet they made an ambitious estimate, and there were delays.

Sukhoi is great, and there is a reason why I did not mention Sukhoi. Mil-26 is not a mass produced helicopter, unlike Mil-17. Hence, my concerns. Just like Aviation Cruisers are not as many as N-Subs.

There are industrial complexes all over Russia that could manufacture many things. You could walk into one complex and see one section making washing machines, and the section right next to it assembling MiG-29s. Russia can do it well if they want to. The first things is to make the right estimate, with time and cost.

Exactly what I am talking about. You can't blame a whole country or the entire mil industrial complex for the fault of one. Blame Sevmash as much as you want, they deserve your ire. I have no problems. But why claim the same for the Rostvertol? We are getting our Mi-17s in time after all. We even placed extra orders for the same. So, why expect them to delay everything else under the sky?

My post was all to do with this point you made.

The delay of Vikramaditya also eroded a lot of confidence with Russian factories' punctuality. Hope they make amends.

How has Gorky eroded Russia's ability to deliver helicopters? That's why I said I don't expect this from senior posters. Let me rephrase your point : The delay of Vikramaditya also eroded a lot of confidence with Sevmash's punctuality.

So, let's keep it to Sevmash, not every other industry under the sun. If we order something from Sevmash, then let's be skeptical then.

Take-off Magazine : Rostvertol continues Mi-26 deliveries

Russia has retained its competence in production of the heavy-lift helicopters of the Mi-26 family, featuring the world's best lifting capacity and being in full-rate production by Rostvertol JSC. During 2007–2010, three Mi-26TC helicopters were delivered to Chinese customers that have been using them actively on fire fighting, disaster relief and special transport operations.

Recently, the Russian Defence Ministry has resumed acquisition of Mi-26s following a long-time interruption. According to the Russian press, it has given the Russian Helicopters holding company a long-term contract for 15 aircraft of the type. Two were delivered in October of last year and were fielded with a unit in the Russian Far East. Two more Mi-26s ordered by the Russian military were completed by Rostvertol in last December and are operated in the Urals. According to the Russian Defence Ministry website, "about five" more Mi-26s will enter the Air Force's inventory in 2012. At least two of them have been made and cleared the acceptance trials conducted by the manufacturer.

In the future, the company is to discontinue the production of the present-day Mi-26, Mi-26T and Mi-26TC in favour of the Mi-26T2 upgrade powered by modified engines and equipped with a sophisticated avionics suite allowing, among other things, a crew reduction down to two pilots. A Mi-26T2 prototype was made on the basis of an earlier-built helicopter in Rostov in 2010 and is undergoing its flight tests.

The Mi-26T2 bids in the tender issued by the Indian Ministry of Defence for 15 advanced heavy-lift helicopters. The potential customer is rather pleased with its assessment, and experts deem the Mi-26T2's chances for winning in the Indian tender as high.

The Russian Defence Ministry plans to order Mi-26T2s too.

So, it does not look like there would be problems with delivery if it is already in serial production.

OT,
It seems they have a JV with the Chinese for another heavy copter design.
Russia and China working on new heavy copter: Voice of Russia

 

[pmaitra]

@p2prada, we got Mil-17s on time. They were made in Ulan-Ude. If Mil-26 is also going to be made there, and if they have the experience, I have confidence.

Do you have the details?

 

[pmaitra]

Gorky has not eroded my confidence with delivery of mass produced Mil-17, but it has eroded my confidence with delivery of occasionally produced Mil-26.

 

[p2prada]

Double Post.

 

[p2prada]

Gorky has not eroded my confidence with delivery of mass produced Mil-17, but it has eroded my confidence with delivery of occasionally produced Mil-26.

Well, the two don't mix. Unlike Sevmash, Rostvertol may surprise you.

I don't know why we have to pursue this though.

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada, we got Mil-17s on time. They were made in Ulan-Ude. If Mil-26 is also going to be made there, and if they have the experience, I have confidence.

Do you have the details?

Haha! I will post again.

A good read on the history of Rostvertol.

 

[asianobserve]