'Make in India' for 90 medium combat jets

[asingh10]

dude there's a huge difference between the East European forces of the 90s and the IAF of the 21st century.

Also note that it's Serbia not Yugoslavia that we are talking about. The breakup of former Yugoslavia resulted in the formation of 6-7 new republics and the ensuing turmoil and chaos severely weakened the Serb's capability and resources to fight a high intensity war. Not to mention the fact that the Serbs had already fought 4 draining and highly damaging wars in a short timeframe of 8 years before NATO intervened in 1999:
1) the 10 day war with Slovenia in 1991
2) Croatian War of Independence from 1991-1995
3) Bosnian War from 1992-95
4) Kosovo War from 1998-99

Also note that from 1991-2010 Serbia was under a UN arms embargo. How could one expect a severely depleted Serbian Air Force to stand up against the might of the combined arms of US/NATO forces?

Inspite of such gaping odds the Yugoslavian/Serbian SAM batteries still managed to shoot down an F-117 stealth bomber and an F-16C (pls refer- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoltán_Dani). And that's why I am not a big fan of stealth and believe that it is so overrated. With proper tactics and equipment stealth can be easily and effectively countered. What ultimately matters is agility/manoeuvrability, situational awareness, readiness rate and battlefield endurance.

Fact- neither the F-22 nor the F-35 can singlehandedly win you a war. Please don't quote me figures from the Arab-Israel wars or the Gulf Wars as the Arabs are totally incompetent opponents. Even after 70 odd years of getting their rears whooped continuously neither have they developed the skills nor the rationale/innovative mindset nor do they have their own public's support to fight a face-to-face war. The only thing they are good at is insurgency and guerrilla warfare. This despite the fact that all Arab countries were armed to the teeth by their Western/Russian allies.

No matter what aircraft you are flying be it a simple MiG-21 or the complex F-22 without the supporting infrastructure and sound doctrine/tactics you will always be beaten by opponents who have more supplies/resources, better trained personnel, agile tactics/strategy, better situational awareness and resolute public support.

Legacy MiG-29s do have a number of shortcomings namely:
-extremely limited range which is not any better than the MiG-21 thereby turning it to a point defense fighter
-poor radar range and limited rearward cockpit visibility
-high cockpit workload
-traditional smoky Russian engines with low MTBO (mean time b/w overhaul)

However a lot of these problems have been addressed with the SMT upgrades. The IAF's 69 MiG-29 jets have been upgraded to the latest UPG/SMT standards which brings a lot of improvements in terms of internal fuel capacity/combat radius, radars and uprated engines. Besides as mentioned in my earlier post a lot of the spares/parts and the engines are now locally produced in India.

I still highly stress that the MiG-29 is perhaps the most competent dogfighter in the IAF inventory. In terms of close-in combat performance the order in terms of performance would roughly be-
MiG-29>MiG-21>Su-30MKI>Mirage 2000
In terms of raw kinteic WVR dogfight performance perhaps its only rival would be the Eurofighter Typhoon. What truly sets it apart is its:
-amazingly exceptional agility/manoeuvrability
-ability to operate in harsh conditions from poorly prepared airfields
-ability to slave the high off-boresight heat seeking missiles to the Helmet Mounted Sight (which Western forces are still trying to copy through the JHMCS) and
-the surprisingly advanced for its time IRST/OLS as a viable alternative to the radar for detecting aerial targets (which is still absent on USAF fighters and has only recently been added to the Rafale and EuroFighter with questionable performance).

A very good reference- http://bharatrakshak.wikia.com/wiki/MiG-29

Thanks for the elaborate explanation.

 

[Yumdoot]

might i give a good suggestion, and i realistic and viable one at that. ditch the LCA and go for the gripen.

Or just make more LCAs with the advanced manufacturing technology sources from SAAB with them Swedes getting a piece of the import/collaboration pie.

 

[Yumdoot]

This is at complete odds with the American/European philosophy where only the actual production variant is given the final operational clearance and hence the massive delays and cost overruns in the F-35 program. Apparently IAF also follows an approach similar to the Western model hence it's unhappiness with the initial Mk1 variant of the LCA Tejas.

No but there is one major difference that IAF has from its western counterparts. IAF follows that approach to stall indigenous efforts.

Its western counterparts OTOH stall theirs, to get the likes of IAF to hop on, with their own important ideas about how to make better 5th Gen aircrafts .

 

[blue marlin]

Or just make more LCAs with the advanced manufacturing technology sources from SAAB with them Swedes getting a piece of the import/collaboration pie.

yes thats a good idea, but you need to think long term here, and thats 25+ years, not 10-15. the lca is a jet i don't like. but i understand your idea of implementing necessary technology rater than importing the entire jet. for you to understand my point here, answer the simple question of which jet do you like lca or gripen? the gripen is cheap and can single handedly replace a huge amount of indian jets such as the: mig 21 which is obvious; jaguar; and the mig 27. that's 475 jets there. the gripen can meet the requirements of all three jets. having a large number of jets reduces maintenance costs which increases operation up time.

 

[angeldude13]

yes thats a good idea, but you need to think long term here, and thats 25+ years, not 10-15. the lca is a jet i don't like. but i understand your idea of implementing necessary technology rater than importing the entire jet. for you to understand my point here, answer the simple question of which jet do you like lca or gripen? the gripen is cheap and can single handedly replace a huge amount of indian jets such as the: mig 21 which is obvious; jaguar; and the mig 27. that's 475 jets there. the gripen can meet the requirements of all three jets. having a large number of jets reduces maintenance costs which increases operation up time.

The thing with gripen is that it is itself using imported technologies like GE engine.It's not completely indigenous and can be sanctioned.It's the reason India rejected the Eurofighter.Too many chefs spoils the dish.In this case spoil is sanction.

 

[guru-dutt]

The thing with gripen is that it is itself using imported technologies like GE engine.It's not completely indigenous and can be sanctioned.It's the reason India rejected the Eurofighter.Too many chefs spoils the dish.In this case spoil is sanction.

i dont understand this pakistani feitish to belittle LCA or make fun by trying to explain how its not leathel enof when they know one day it will be used against them ?

LCA is coming owt as a much much better to an alternative to mig21s and mig27s(in fact a single LCA in a single sortie does the job of both) as it can even today carry 4+tonne of wepons or external feul on 7 hard point + 1 station is for LDP pod and still has a fighting radius of close to 350Km+ with full load and is supersonik on all altitudes and has a much better avionicks with an AESA it will be kick ass

 

[bengalraider]

Meanwhile the Americans are back
http://m.hindustantimes.com/india/l...6s-in-india/story-D1oeW9V6sojIq9nUioYHjO.html
PM Narendra Modi’s Make in India plan appears to be generating a buzz in the US, with Bethesda-based aerospace major Lockheed Martin indicating interest in building its iconic F-16 fighter plane in the country.

Top sources said during a meeting with Modi in New York on Thursday, Lockheed Martin CEO Marillyn Hewson discussed the possibility of building the fighter planes in India.

The single-engine F-16 took part in India’s multi-billion dollar tender to buy modern warplanes, but the US firm was knocked out of the competition in early stages.

After the Modi-Hewson meeting, ministry of external affairs spokesman Vikas Swarup tweeted, “Cleared for takeoff. Marillyn Hewson, Chairman of @LockheedMartin discusses aerospace industry w/ PM @narendramodi.”

Lockheed Martin has delivered more than 4,500 fighters to 28 international customers, including the Pakistan Air Force.

The US firm has introduced several upgraded variants of the fighter that has been around for more than 40 years. New F-16 variants come packed with enhancements such as active electronically scanned array radars, improved situational awareness for pilots, better avionics and sensors and increased payload to keep pace with rapidly evolving military requirements.

India finally scrapped the contract to buy 126 fighter jets and is currently negotiating with France to buy 36 Rafale fighters under a government-to-government sale.

To meet the Indian Air Force’s requirements, the possibilities being explored by New Delhi include going in for large-scale manufacturing of the locally-produced light combat aircraft or building a fighter with foreign collaboration in India.

- See more at: http://m.hindustantimes.com/india/l...eW9V6sojIq9nUioYHjO.html#sthash.doaOdlz8.dpuf

 

[guru-dutt]

Meanwhile the Americans are back
http://m.hindustantimes.com/india/l...6s-in-india/story-D1oeW9V6sojIq9nUioYHjO.html
PM Narendra Modi’s Make in India plan appears to be generating a buzz in the US, with Bethesda-based aerospace major Lockheed Martin indicating interest in building its iconic F-16 fighter plane in the country.

Top sources said during a meeting with Modi in New York on Thursday, Lockheed Martin CEO Marillyn Hewson discussed the possibility of building the fighter planes in India.

The single-engine F-16 took part in India’s multi-billion dollar tender to buy modern warplanes, but the US firm was knocked out of the competition in early stages.

After the Modi-Hewson meeting, ministry of external affairs spokesman Vikas Swarup tweeted, “Cleared for takeoff. Marillyn Hewson, Chairman of @LockheedMartin discusses aerospace industry w/ PM @narendramodi.”

Lockheed Martin has delivered more than 4,500 fighters to 28 international customers, including the Pakistan Air Force.

The US firm has introduced several upgraded variants of the fighter that has been around for more than 40 years. New F-16 variants come packed with enhancements such as active electronically scanned array radars, improved situational awareness for pilots, better avionics and sensors and increased payload to keep pace with rapidly evolving military requirements.

India finally scrapped the contract to buy 126 fighter jets and is currently negotiating with France to buy 36 Rafale fighters under a government-to-government sale.

To meet the Indian Air Force’s requirements, the possibilities being explored by New Delhi include going in for large-scale manufacturing of the locally-produced light combat aircraft or building a fighter with foreign collaboration in India.

- See more at: http://m.hindustantimes.com/india/l...eW9V6sojIq9nUioYHjO.html#sthash.doaOdlz8.dpuf

F-16 is not the answer to MRCA requirements in MRCA we need a twin engined multi role platform that can diliver medium range (in access of 350Km ) first strike(SEAD/DEAD) and still fight its way owt to safety

Mig35 is good but untested and has its limitaions + india doesnt wants to put all the eggs in a single basket which is fair enof while typoon is way too expensive so its onli the rafale that makes the cut put if USA playes it right and agrres the same for land based version of F/A-18E F advanced super hornet then they just might get the contract as it also has a Growler variant which can fry all radar and other communications of any known enemy and that too from a safe stand off range

 

[SajeevJino]

.

See there is a Vacuum in Light aircraft in IAF, here Americans offered the Scorpion, F 16 IN, and Sweden offer the Gripen,

Many believes Tejas can fill the cap, later they said LCA 1P, and upcoming MK 2 ..

 

[punjab47]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29K

Mig 29k was ordered by the Russian navy to replace its own su-33.

So it's heavily upgraded, like comparing mig 21 to bison.
--
Longer we wait, more we pay.

 

[pmaitra]

i dont understand this pakistani feitish to belittle LCA or make fun by trying to explain how its not leathel enof when they know one day it will be used against them ?

LCA is coming owt as a much much better to an alternative to mig21s and mig27s(in fact a single LCA in a single sortie does the job of both) as it can even today carry 4+tonne of wepons or external feul on 7 hard point + 1 station is for LDP pod and still has a fighting radius of close to 350Km+ with full load and is supersonik on all altitudes and has a much better avionicks with an AESA it will be kick ass

The MiG-21 is a high altitude interceptor. The MiG-27 is a ground attack aircraft.

The LCA can do the former well, but is not ideal for the latter. We cannot simply look at weapons load and decide. The MiG-27 is a swing-wing aircraft, and it will perform better than LCA when attacking ground targets. LCA can be used for ground attack, but LCA's design is not ideal for ground attack.

 

[guru-dutt]

The MiG-21 is a high altitude interceptor. The MiG-27 is a ground attack aircraft.

The LCA can do the former well, but is not ideal for the latter. We cannot simply look at weapons load and decide. The MiG-27 is a swing-wing aircraft, and it will perform better than LCA when attacking ground targets. LCA can be used for ground attack, but LCA's design is not ideal for ground attack.

yes its not ideal but in todays world we have things like LDP and stand off range strike wepons like spike250 which is already incorporated with Tejas so is the large variety of israeli PGMs and LGBs so tejas can handle that job gone are the days of specialiesd jobs assigned to specialised fighter platforms now its all about multi tasking

 

[manutdfan]

yes its not ideal but in todays world we have things like LDP and stand off range strike wepons like spike250 which is already incorporated with Tejas so is the large variety of israeli PGMs and LGBs so tejas can handle that job gone are the days of specialiesd jobs assigned to specialised fighter platforms now its all about multi tasking

guru-dutt saab i beg to strongly differ. Tejas cannot and will not ever match or even come barely close to the MiG-27 in the ground attack role i.e battlefield air interdiction (BAI) in particular. Or for that matter any other aircraft in the IAF inventory. the surprisingly myopic vision of the IAF regarding this particular capability worries me.

Food for thought- Tejas can definitely definitely carry all the fancy bombs and missiles but it's payload, fuel capacity and combat radius is much lesser than the MiG-27. Also it's too fast for the low altitude ground attack role.
If I want to harass a column of enemy tanks and armored vehicles (brigade size) what would be cheaper and effective- a light payload of precision munitions that cost half a million dollars each barely enough to take out half a dozen tanks or...
a couple of unguided rockets and some hundreds of rounds from the simple but devastating Gatling cannon mounted on the MiG-27?
Not to mention the superior battlefield endurance of the latter. While the Tejas would barely make it to the battlefront to even deliver its expensive payload, the MiG-27 will happily circle above the enemy pounding them with inexpensive and efficient canon rounds and rockets.

For beating your opponent one doesn't necessarily need the best possible weapons. It can also be done with weapons of affordable & acceptable quality in superior quantities.

Please refer my extensive treatise on CAS (close air support) :bounce: posted on another thread as i don't want to further deviate from topic on current thread. CAS is slightly different from BAI but most of my arguments should still apply.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-phased-out-in-2017.42323/page-2#post-1064901