Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Damian

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Most probably it was attempt to test different addon armor designs and choose the most suitable one. This one seems to be inspired by Merkava Mk1 and Mk2 turet designs.

How do not expect much informations. China is a country where literature about their weapon systems avaiable for foreingers is mostly non existing.

BTW it is rather not early prototype, and I can see even a Chinese version of TShU-1-7 Shtora-1 system.
 

313230

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Term strenght used alone, without any specification, can be understanded as improvement in overall characteristics, this is simple to understand, at least for human beings.
lol, it shows your ignorance pretty well. You don't know the different between strength and hardness then try to cover it with simplicity. So, because of the simple sake, momentum is the same as kinetic energy, weight is the same as mass, right, Mr. professional?

I think you are not qualified as engineer, maybe you was educated in art or history, so I can understand it easily. Engineer never said strength alone for the sake of simplicity. LMAO, imagine engineers that said glass is stronger than steel because it simple to understand. Just very basic thing but you do not qualified
 

313230

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Just look at the KMW brochures and website. They never state anything about the threats their tanks are protected against. The only case when they do it (in the brochures of their joint ventures with Rheinmetall, i.e. Boxer and Puma) they only state very vague things like "Highest protection level in its class - in terms of heavy machine guns, automatic medium calibre machine cannons, bomblets and artillery fragments" or "The ballistic armour is designed to provide protection against hand-held anti-tank weapons, medium calibre weapons, artillery fragments and bomblets.".

The RPG-29 is not some magic weapon capable of penetrating more armour than other weapons. It is an outdated weapon system already 24 years old. Newer and much more capable RPG systems already exist like the RPG-28 or the PzFst-3 T and IT. But most importantly you can give a RPG-7 the same level of armour penetration by using the PG-7VR ammunition of the same caliber. So if a tank is not proof against a 24 years old RPG-29, then it also can be defeated by all RPGs which are newer than 24 years...
M1 is not protected against old rpg7, then what? Merkava 4 with very thick side armor is not protected against rpg 29.

So what? In reality tank can be defeated by all rpgs

Because rpg 29 is old then it must be worthless? Is this your logic to claim protection against it without hard proof?

Ok, how old is .50 caliber? Is there any body armor protected against it? Oh with your and Damian and super fancy nano material, body armor should be protected against .50 or it can not provide protection against anything? Right?

Let's talk like engineer, which I respect you much more than Damian, you need to provide proof that:

25cm composite armor + 10cm RHA + airspace is enough against 600mm.

Why 25cm? leo2a7 is under 4m wide, 3.5m without skirt so you do the math.

RPG 29 is not special because it is the best in it class. There is AT4 120mm back in the 90s can penetrate even front armor.

RPG29 is special because it can be obtained by terrorist and maybe the most powerful handheld AT of terrorist. If tank can be protected against rpg29 then it is quite a significant achievement from being penetrated by old rpg7 (without any breaking news in the industry)
 
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Damian

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lol, it shows your ignorance pretty well. You don't know the different between strength and hardness then try to cover it with simplicity. So, because of the simple sake, momentum is the same as kinetic energy, weight is the same as mass, right, Mr. professional?

I think you are not qualified as engineer, maybe you was educated in art or history, so I can understand it easily. Engineer never said strength alone for the sake of simplicity. LMAO, imagine engineers that said glass is stronger than steel because it simple to understand. Just very basic thing but you do not qualified
As always, you have problems with understanding simple terms, and needs to build up yours ego.

And I never said I am engineer, however not being an engineer does not make me not well acknowledged with MBT's designing and all these details.

Oh and BTW, engineers are using such simplifications when talking with people from the "outside".

M1 is not protected against old rpg7, then what? Merkava 4 with very thick side armor is not protected against rpg 29.
What makes you think that M1 is not protected over it's sides against RPG-7? Same for Merkava Mk4, there are surfaces over hull sides of Merkava Mk4 protected by very thick composite armor modules, something unique among modern MBT's, or tanks at all.

You have problems with simple terms and attack others because of that, but in the same time, you are oversimplifing things to the point of absurd.

However I understand this, you are not one of us, people that can read hours about single specific tank design or analize for hours single photograph.

So what? In reality tank can be defeated by all rpgs
Yes, and not, in reality it depends on tank design and protection features.

For example phoptos from "Knife" and "Duplet" ERA shows nearly 100% destruction of penetrator or shaped charge jet, which means even very thin steel plate have only comsetic damage after hit from RPG-29.

So it all depends on design solution.

Because rpg 29 is old then it must be worthless? Is this your logic to claim protection against it without hard proof?
And where someone said RPG-29 is worthless? You acting is interesting, you seems to worship RPG-29 as a some sort of super RPG, but when someone claims that it's reputation is overestimated you start to attack such persons.

Ok, how old is .50 caliber? Is there any body armor protected against it? Oh with your and Damian and super fancy nano material, body armor should be protected against .50 or it can not provide protection against anything? Right?
Again, you are making completely absurd claims. In fact it is not even a problem of body armor but rather human body, because armor can protect again 12,7mm ammunition, but there is still shock, momentum etc. that can hurt or kill human protected by body armor.

In case of vehicles it is far much easier to design proper armor protection.

RPG 29 is not special because it is the best in it class. There is AT4 120mm back in the 90s can penetrate even front armor.
What AT4? You mean AT12-T? Again is there a proof it can penetrate front armor? Or you believe in advertisement? The same advertisement that claimed RPG-29 penetration as 750mm after ERA, when in reality it is 600mm+ after ERA as per manufacturer more recent brochure.

RPG29 is special because it can be obtained by terrorist and maybe the most powerful handheld AT of terrorist. If tank can be protected against rpg29 then it is quite a significant achievement from being penetrated by old rpg7 (without any breaking news in the industry)
Vehicles armor protection is evolving very fast, this is however not recognized by wider public simply because details are not provided, reasons are obvious.

If 20 years ago to protected again shaped charge warhead of specific calliber you needed 500mm of composite armor, today you need only half of that due to progress in materials as well as understanding projectile/armor interaction mechanisms.

The fact is that shaped charge warheads through all these decades didn't changed much, they only grow in calliber mostly. While vehicles armor protection made incredible progress from the 1960's.

Currently hand held anti tank weapons are ineffective against front armor of modern MBT's (of course in places where composite armor is installed).

However protection like "Knife" and "Duplet" are still preaty new and unconventional and it will take some time before more countries will recongize potential of linear shaped charges in vehicle protection. Same with nanotechnology in vehicles armor designing, it is still expensive and difficult and like all types of process will take time, although in near future, only rich countries that spends a lot of money on R&D will be capable to use these solutions.
 

Damian

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Oh and there is one more thing. Dynamic protection like "Knife" and "Duplet" have a significant advantage. It can be manufactured in different sizes and installed in cassettes of other types of dynamic protection.

For example Ukrainian T-72UA1 have "Knife" installed in old "Kontakt-1" cassettes mounted on hull. So you can install such protection also in for example "ARAT" ERA cassettes, or "BRAT" ERA or "SRAT" ERA, or other types like "ROMOR-A", "BRENUS", probably also "Blazer", "Kontakt-5" etc.

In theory it can be even combined with composite armor modules, where outer layer is made from "Knife/Duplet" then there is steel plate layer with attachements for ERA and behind it a composite armor, for example AMAP can be redesigned this way.

Due to efficency of Ukrainian ERA, and it's flexibility, new interesting options in vehicles protection are opened.
 
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Damian

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And one more thing.

Why such addon armor like AMAP might be effective against RPG-29 protecting hull sides?

This is because of shaped charge jet nature, in this case composite armor (especially with reactive components) will not only increase jet erosion, but there is also such thing like observed jet "spacing", which means that jet after perforating addon armor module (and during it's penetration as well) increasingly starts to fragmenting in to smaller fragments, in other words, jet looses it's integrity, very important for armor perforation, and we should remember that in case of side hull protection, we have there a space for tracks and suspension betwee addon armor and side hull armor surface.

Such surface can be significant enough so jet will significantly fragmented and easy stopped by base side armor even if it as thin as 50-80mm.

We can observe jet spacing on x-ray photos.



As we can see despite only single NERA layer and small distance between armor and witness plate, we can observe significant shaped charge jet spacing.

Now imagine a ~250mm armor module with several such NERA layers and a significant space between such armor module and basic armor, which in case of modern tanks is something between 300-400mm.

So it is not immposible to achieve side hull protection against weapons like RPG-29, especially if we know that it's real penetration capabilities are actually lower than widespread data claims.
 

methos

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M1 is not protected against old rpg7, then what?
The M1 is protected against the RPG-7 in the area were composite armour is applied to the vehicle's surface. Since the M1 is however designed for conventional warfare, composite armour is only used in the frontal sector.


Merkava 4 with very thick side armor is not protected against rpg 29.
No. This has been discussed in various different forums (including this one) mutliple times. The Isreali Defence Force uses currently all types of Merkava tanks - inlcuding the old Merkava I, II and III - which don't have thick side armour. These tanks are vulnerable to old RPGs, anti-tank missiles and IEDs and these tanks make up the majority of Isreal's combat losses.
There is currently not a single evidence that a RPG-29 destroyed a Merkava IV. Besides the Merkava IV is - compared to newer tanks like the Leopard 2A7, Leclerc Azur or the Challenger II with TESH - less armoured (in terms of weight and armour thickness).


So what? In reality tank can be defeated by all rpgs
In the non-armoured sectors, yes. But on the latest tanks the armour coverage has been increased drastically, making only the rear vulnerable.


Because rpg 29 is old then it must be worthless? Is this your logic to claim protection against it without hard proof?
The RPG-29 is not worthless, it is outdated. It could not penetrate the frontal armour of tanks made prior it entered service and it does not have the penetration power to guarantee the penetration of thinner but much more modern armour.


Ok, how old is .50 caliber? Is there any body armor protected against it? Oh with your and Damian and super fancy nano material, body armor should be protected against .50 or it can not provide protection against anything? Right?
This is a very stupid analogy. There never has been any attempt to protect infantry against the 12.7 mm caliber. There never was a requirement for infantry to be protected against HMG rounds, and even if the armour would provide sufficient protection to resist a direct hit from a 12.7 mm round, the kinetic energy would lead to very likely lethal wounds.
But if you look at body armour, why don't you look at the increase which was made. Today's body armour is capable of resisting armour-piercing rounds from battle rifles and bolt-action rifles, something what wasn't be granted during the 1980s and early 1990s... at the same time current generation armour is lighter.


25cm composite armor + 10cm RHA + airspace is enough against 600mm.
This is strongly depending on the type of armour used. The following image is taken from a random Krauss-Maffei Wegmann patent:

(It obviously shows multiple layers of bulging-plates armour (NERA).)

If we now take a look at the scientific report "Disturbance of Shaped Charge Jets by Bulging Armour" by Manfred Held (the inventor of ERA), we see that a single layer made of 2 mm mild steel, 20 mm Dyneema and 4 mm mild steel at 60° angle (so line-of-sight thickness is 52 mm) reduced the penetration into mild steel of a 115 mm shaped charge by around 400 mm at a standoff of 15 calibers.
While the standoff is much greater, the targets and armour are only made of mild steel (reducing the protection capability) and the 115 mm warhead is much more powerfull than the 105 mm warhead of the RPG-29 (residual penetration into mild steel after the reduction of "around 400 mm" was 590 mm and 610 mm).
By these considerations 3 similar layers should be easily enough to deal with a 105 mm warhead capable of penetrating 600 mm steel armour.

Furthermore the protection can be increased by optimizing material and layering. In "Shaped Charge Jet Interaction with Highly Effective Passive Sandwich Systems - Experiments and Analysis" two NERA layers (10.5 mm steel + 7-8 mm interlayer material + 10.5 mm steel) at 65° angle spaced 71 mm apart were tested against a 136 mm (!) shaped charge warhead capable of penetrating 950 mm RHA. Penetration into the witness block placed 6 calibers behind the armour array was between 14 mm and 107 mm, depending on material.

In "MULTIPLE CROSS-WISE ORIENTATED NERA-PANELS AGAINST SHAPED CHARGE WARHEADS" NERA plates made of 3 mm steel - 5 mm rubber - 3 mm steel at 60° angle are tested against a 84 mm shaped charge warhead capable of penetrating 450 mm RHA. Depending on the exact configuration the penetration power is reduced to 40 mm RHA at 590 mm standoff

It is clearly possible to provide sufficient protection to survive a hit of a RPG-29 with the available space.

If the armour is not NERA - as I personally believe - it could be ceramic armour. 3 parts AD-92 (which is already outdated) with 1 part steel will provide 1.65 times the protection as steel armour of the same thickness against HEAT rounds. 1 part AD-92 with 1 part steel provides 1.79 times the protection as steel armour of the same thickness.
This would mean that the 300 mm thick side armour would provide 495 - 537 mm protection against HEAT, with the 625 mm air and the 100 mm RHA doing the rest.

Why 25cm? leo2a7 is under 4m wide, 3.5m without skirt so you do the math.
Instead of randomly making a statement after looking at two values, you should at first take a closer look at the vehicle. The Leopard 2 in it's bais configuration is 3,700 mm wide including the armoured side skirts - these are 150 mm thick (both by scale drawings from Spielberger and by assertion from former German soldiers). If the Leopard 2A7 is 4,000 mm wide (as claimed on the Krauss-Maffei Wegmann website, but the value is probably rounded) - then there is an extra 300 mm of armour, or half the amount on both sides (which then happens to be 150 mm + 150 mm = 30 cm). The value 25 cm was a rough estimate from looking at the vehicle.


RPG 29 is not special because it is the best in it class.
No, it is not. It is very cheap and reloadable, which is the reason why it is very widespread. PzFst-3, RPG-28, etc. all can penetrate more armour, but are more expensive.


There is AT4 120mm back in the 90s can penetrate even front armor.
AT-4 cannot penetrate the frontal armour of 1990s tanks.
 

collegeboy16

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Oh and there is one more thing. Dynamic protection like "Knife" and "Duplet" have a significant advantage. It can be manufactured in different sizes and installed in cassettes of other types of dynamic protection.

For example Ukrainian T-72UA1 have "Knife" installed in old "Kontakt-1" cassettes mounted on hull. So you can install such protection also in for example "ARAT" ERA cassettes, or "BRAT" ERA or "SRAT" ERA, or other types like "ROMOR-A", "BRENUS", probably also "Blazer", "Kontakt-5" etc.

In theory it can be even combined with composite armor modules, where outer layer is made from "Knife/Duplet" then there is steel plate layer with attachements for ERA and behind it a composite armor, for example AMAP can be redesigned this way.

Due to efficency of Ukrainian ERA, and it's flexibility, new interesting options in vehicles protection are opened.
I have a question to you guys, which is better, Relikt or Nozh-2? And where does Kaktus stand from the two?
 

313230

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However I understand this, you are not one of us, people that can read hours about single specific tank design or analize for hours single photograph.
Whatever, do you think I care for a bunch of idiot fans who think that they are professionals because they have a lot of free time? I do not disrespect the open community, I respect hard work and enthusiasm, but not idiots who think they are professionals just because they have a lot of free time. You claimed too much of credit from the work of others, so I do not care.
What AT4? You mean AT12-T? Again is there a proof it can penetrate front armor? Or you believe in advertisement? The same advertisement that claimed RPG-29 penetration as 750mm after ERA, when in reality it is 600mm+ after ERA as per manufacturer more recent brochure.
There is a video in youtube where at12 penetrated 30cm armor at 70 degree + ERA + space, IIRC, not all front armor, but surely many front armors will be penetrated. Ads from producer is reliable.
If 20 years ago to protected again shaped charge warhead of specific calliber you needed 500mm of composite armor, today you need only half of that due to progress in materials as well as understanding projectile/armor interaction mechanisms.

The fact is that shaped charge warheads through all these decades didn't changed much, they only grow in calliber mostly. While vehicles armor protection made incredible progress from the 1960's.
Wrong, vague statement without proof. SC went from 6-7 calibers to 9+ calibers. Most of papers predict weapon tech evolves faster than armor tech. SC with tungsten copper liner, molybdenum liner, more precision liner..

I don't have time and interest to discuss word to word with you
 

313230

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And one more thing.

Why such addon armor like AMAP might be effective against RPG-29 protecting hull sides?

This is because of shaped charge jet nature, in this case composite armor (especially with reactive components) will not only increase jet erosion, but there is also such thing like observed jet "spacing", which means that jet after perforating addon armor module (and during it's penetration as well) increasingly starts to fragmenting in to smaller fragments, in other words, jet looses it's integrity, very important for armor perforation, and we should remember that in case of side hull protection, we have there a space for tracks and suspension betwee addon armor and side hull armor surface.

Such surface can be significant enough so jet will significantly fragmented and easy stopped by base side armor even if it as thin as 50-80mm.

We can observe jet spacing on x-ray photos.



As we can see despite only single NERA layer and small distance between armor and witness plate, we can observe significant shaped charge jet spacing.

Now imagine a ~250mm armor module with several such NERA layers and a significant space between such armor module and basic armor, which in case of modern tanks is something between 300-400mm.

So it is not immposible to achieve side hull protection against weapons like RPG-29, especially if we know that it's real penetration capabilities are actually lower than widespread data claims.
The problem is that you use your amateur imagination. While LOS is low, NERA needs space, as picture shows, the bugling effect needed alot more than LOS thickness to work well. If you add more layers, where is the proof that it works better? Many mechanisms work worse when adding layers, so it is a trade off. But your imagination doesn't know that, of course, then your imagination feels the need to spread itself to the clueless people. LMAO, nano material, carbon nanotube, you like fancy names, right? Good for you, but I only like real money and hard evidence.
 

Damian

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Whatever, do you think I care for a bunch of idiot fans who think that they are professionals because they have a lot of free time? I do not disrespect the open community, I respect hard work and enthusiasm, but not idiots who think they are professionals just because they have a lot of free time. You claimed too much of credit from the work of others, so I do not care.
As far as I can see, you are the one who is being a fan of something (RPG-29 for example), besides this, you are not providing anything usefull.

As for claiming too much credit from work of others... you mean who's work? And where did I claimed too much from these "others" work?

Only because you do not like us, do not give you a right to make false claims about what we do. Neither you are forced to write here and read what we are writing.

There is a video in youtube where at12 penetrated 30cm armor at 70 degree + ERA + space, IIRC, not all front armor, but surely many front armors will be penetrated. Ads from producer is reliable.
You think that 30cm of simple steel armor at specific angle + ERA + space is equal to modern composite armor of a modern tank?

Again you are attacking others, and in the same time, you are delighted with a simple advertisement of some manufacturer. I smell a hypocrite.

Wrong, vague statement without proof. SC went from 6-7 calibers to 9+ calibers. Most of papers predict weapon tech evolves faster than armor tech. SC with tungsten copper liner, molybdenum liner, more precision liner..
And these most of papers are written by whom? Mostly by "analists" that have problems with proper weapon systems recognition. Same with claims about new liners in shaped charge warheads, yeah cool, different than copper materials for liners are known for a long time, even depleted uranium was tested as a liner. But there is a problem, that is very important. Time in which liner "transforms" in to jet. As far as I remember, it was reported that materials different than copper, might to slowly form jet, thus are not the most optimal solution, even if in theory, they should provide a much greater penetration.

I don't have time and interest to discuss word to word with you
Then why you even write with us and waste our time?

The problem is that you use your amateur imagination. While LOS is low, NERA needs space, as picture shows, the bugling effect needed alot more than LOS thickness to work well. If you add more layers, where is the proof that it works better? Many mechanisms work worse when adding layers, so it is a trade off. But your imagination doesn't know that, of course, then your imagination feels the need to spread itself to the clueless people. LMAO, nano material, carbon nanotube, you like fancy names, right? Good for you, but I only like real money and hard evidence.
NERA can be tightly packed, do you know that NERA in case of Leopard 2A5/A6 have several layers in these wedge shaped addon modules.

Not co mention that modern tanks composite armors also have several NERA layers, and they work perfectly.

Besides this, I do not need imagination, I just know how these things look like, contrary to you.

And one more thing, do you know the size of these plates on x-ray photo? NERA does not need to be huge, in fact these plates can be very thin. For example NERA layers in T-72B turret front cavieties are 27mm thick only.

If we use them as example, we can create a 272mm thick armor module with six 27mm thick NERA layers with five 22mm air gaps between them. Ok 272mm is too thick? Let be it five 27mm NERA layers with four 22mm air gaps, which gives 223mm thick armor module. Plus some outer plate and back plate let's say both 10mm thick, this gives a 243mm thick armor.

Possible to have such protection layered? Indeed very possible.

You objections are then invalid.

As for nano materials or carbon nanotubes. The initial ballistic tests performed in Australia, shows great potential of carbon nanotubes.

Only because you have no idea about research and development outside Vietnam, does not give you right to criticize them.
 
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Damian

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I have a question to you guys, which is better, Relikt or Nozh-2? And where does Kaktus stand from the two?
"Nozh-2" or rather "Knife-2" (we are on english language forum afterall) also known as "Duplet" or HSCzKV34P is more efficent. "Relikt" represent previous generation of ERA based on working mechanism that can be currently considered as increasingly obsolete.

"Kaktus" seems to be older, abandoned project.
 

collegeboy16

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Hmm, perhaps we will see M1A3, Leopard 3, and T-99 Armata sporting such ERA.
Would be interesting to see what sort of modifications would each of them apply.
 

313230

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No. This has been discussed in various different forums (including this one) mutliple times. The Isreali Defence Force uses currently all types of Merkava tanks - inlcuding the old Merkava I, II and III - which don't have thick side armour. These tanks are vulnerable to old RPGs, anti-tank missiles and IEDs and these tanks make up the majority of Isreal's combat losses.
There is currently not a single evidence that a RPG-29 destroyed a Merkava IV. Besides the Merkava IV is - compared to newer tanks like the Leopard 2A7, Leclerc Azur or the Challenger II with TESH - less armoured (in terms of weight and armour thickness).
Because the secrecy of IDF, so we do not know how well Mk 4 really is. There was news Mk 4 was penetrated by pg29.
The RPG-29 is not worthless, it is outdated. It could not penetrate the frontal armour of tanks made prior it entered service and it does not have the penetration power to guarantee the penetration of thinner but much more modern armour.
lol, I do not say it penetrate front armor, RPGs only need to penetrate a tank, side or rear, that is enough. There was story it penetrate front T80, T90 back in the days.
If we now take a look at the scientific report "Disturbance of Shaped Charge Jets by Bulging Armour" by Manfred Held (the inventor of ERA), we see that a single layer made of 2 mm mild steel, 20 mm Dyneema and 4 mm mild steel at 60° angle (so line-of-sight thickness is 52 mm) reduced the penetration into mild steel of a 115 mm shaped charge by around 400 mm at a standoff of 15 calibers.
While the standoff is much greater, the targets and armour are only made of mild steel (reducing the protection capability) and the 115 mm warhead is much more powerfull than the 105 mm warhead of the RPG-29 (residual penetration into mild steel after the reduction of "around 400 mm" was 590 mm and 610 mm).
By these considerations 3 similar layers should be easily enough to deal with a 105 mm warhead capable of penetrating 600 mm steel armour.

Furthermore the protection can be increased by optimizing material and layering. In "Shaped Charge Jet Interaction with Highly Effective Passive Sandwich Systems - Experiments and Analysis" two NERA layers (10.5 mm steel + 7-8 mm interlayer material + 10.5 mm steel) at 65° angle spaced 71 mm apart were tested against a 136 mm (!) shaped charge warhead capable of penetrating 950 mm RHA. Penetration into the witness block placed 6 calibers behind the armour array was between 14 mm and 107 mm, depending on material.

In "MULTIPLE CROSS-WISE ORIENTATED NERA-PANELS AGAINST SHAPED CHARGE WARHEADS" NERA plates made of 3 mm steel - 5 mm rubber - 3 mm steel at 60° angle are tested against a 84 mm shaped charge warhead capable of penetrating 450 mm RHA. Depending on the exact configuration the penetration power is reduced to 40 mm RHA at 590 mm standoff
Thanks for the paper I will read it later
There are problem:
1/ Those papers are against single warhead why Rpg 29 is tangdem with precursor used to defeat armor mechanism.

2/ If the reality is so simple, then 2006 Isarel wouldn't lose a single Mk 4 to missile. On one side, I read papers, OTOH, I look into reality, Mk4 was penetrated by shaped charge which according to papers, it should not happen. Mk4 is very modern tank designed with overall propection, it was born much later than your paper, or Israeli didn't read your paper, oh how stupid Israeli?
Which one do I believe? I believe in reality, I believe Israeli read your paper and know a lot more than you and me, but they can't stop old shaped charge.
It is clearly possible to provide sufficient protection to survive a hit of a RPG-29 with the available space.
The problem is that papers are against single warhead while pg29 is tandem warhead used to defeat ERAs, NERAs...

If the armour is not NERA - as I personally believe - it could be ceramic armour. 3 parts AD-92 (which is already outdated) with 1 part steel will provide 1.65 times the protection as steel armour of the same thickness against HEAT rounds. 1 part AD-92 with 1 part steel provides 1.79 times the protection as steel armour of the same thickness.
This would mean that the 300 mm thick side armour would provide 495 - 537 mm protection against HEAT, with the 625 mm air and the 100 mm RHA doing the rest.

Instead of randomly making a statement after looking at two values, you should at first take a closer look at the vehicle. The Leopard 2 in it's bais configuration is 3,700 mm wide including the armoured side skirts - these are 150 mm thick (both by scale drawings from Spielberger and by assertion from former German soldiers). If the Leopard 2A7 is 4,000 mm wide (as claimed on the Krauss-Maffei Wegmann website, but the value is probably rounded) - then there is an extra 300 mm of armour, or half the amount on both sides (which then happens to be 150 mm + 150 mm = 30 cm). The value 25 cm was a rough estimate from looking at the vehicle.
I believe what you said would use heavy ceramic like Du or tungsten to provide that efficiency. And it has maximum 25cm side armor. Without skirt Leo2 already is 3.5+m wide. (4-3.5)/2 = .25 max, not counting mounting structure,.. so maybe less than 25cm of composite. OK, so maybe in the very best case scenario, it is protected against rpg29, not much guaranteed. Full width 3.5m - 1.4m for the track then inner hull has less than 2.1m. I believe it has less than 10cm RHA base armor because turret ring already +2m

The point is, the addon skirt has maximum 25cm. You like the word outdated but penetrator still use Du or W which is outdated material. Stop claiming outdated.
 

Damian

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Hmm, perhaps we will see M1A3, Leopard 3, and T-99 Armata sporting such ERA.
Would be interesting to see what sort of modifications would each of them apply.
As far as I know, in "west", only Americans are interested in ERA like "Knife/Duplet". This is why they bought 4 T-84 tanks with this ERA for tests. It is not known how many "Knife" ERA spare kits were bought by USA, but the "great mystery" is that USA financed production start of "Knife" in Ukraine by purchasing Soviet technology, documentation etc. from Ukraine.

There was story it penetrate front T80, T90 back in the days.
If you would know russian and talk with Russians, you would know that this story was a lie, someones fantasy, not real.

Thanks for the paper I will read it later
There are problem:
1/ Those papers are against single warhead why Rpg 29 is tangdem with precursor used to defeat armor mechanism.

2/ If the reality is so simple, then 2006 Isarel wouldn't lose a single Mk 4 to missile. On one side, I read papers, OTOH, I look into reality, Mk4 was penetrated by shaped charge which according to papers, it should not happen. Mk4 is very modern tank designed with overall propection, it was born much later than your paper, or Israeli didn't read your paper, oh how stupid Israeli?
Which one do I believe? I believe in reality, I believe Israeli read your paper and know a lot more than you and me, but they can't stop old shaped charge.
As Methos said, Merkava Mk4 have less armor than many other tanks due to it's specific design. As well you are making claims without knowing where tanks was hit, and if it was hit in a place protected by composite armor, or simple steel armor. Merkava Mk4 have even places protected by cast armor, which is complete archaism.

The problem is that papers are against single warhead while pg29 is tandem warhead used to defeat ERAs, NERAs...
Tandem warhead is nothing special. There is a main charge and small precursor, this precursor charge can be defeated relatively easy if you know how much it penetrates.

I believe what you said would use heavy ceramic like Du or tungsten to provide that efficiency.
And when metals like depleted uranium or tungsten become ceramics? :D
 
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313230

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As far as I can see, you are the one who is being a fan of something (RPG-29 for example), besides this, you are not providing anything usefull.

As for claiming too much credit from work of others... you mean who's work? And where did I claimed too much from these "others" work?

Only because you do not like us, do not give you a right to make false claims about what we do. Neither you are forced to write here and read what we are writing.



You think that 30cm of simple steel armor at specific angle + ERA + space is equal to modern composite armor of a modern tank?

Again you are attacking others, and in the same time, you are delighted with a simple advertisement of some manufacturer. I smell a hypocrite.



And these most of papers are written by whom? Mostly by "analists" that have problems with proper weapon systems recognition. Same with claims about new liners in shaped charge warheads, yeah cool, different than copper materials for liners are known for a long time, even depleted uranium was tested as a liner. But there is a problem, that is very important. Time in which liner "transforms" in to jet. As far as I remember, it was reported that materials different than copper, might to slowly form jet, thus are not the most optimal solution, even if in theory, they should provide a much greater penetration.



Then why you even write with us and waste our time?



NERA can be tightly packed, do you know that NERA in case of Leopard 2A5/A6 have several layers in these wedge shaped addon modules.

Not co mention that modern tanks composite armors also have several NERA layers, and they work perfectly.

Besides this, I do not need imagination, I just know how these things look like, contrary to you.

And one more thing, do you know the size of these plates on x-ray photo? NERA does not need to be huge, in fact these plates can be very thin. For example NERA layers in T-72B turret front cavieties are 27mm thick only.

If we use them as example, we can create a 272mm thick armor module with six 27mm thick NERA layers with five 22mm air gaps between them. Ok 272mm is too thick? Let be it five 27mm NERA layers with four 22mm air gaps, which gives 223mm thick armor module. Plus some outer plate and back plate let's say both 10mm thick, this gives a 243mm thick armor.

Possible to have such protection layered? Indeed very possible.

You objections are then invalid.

As for nano materials or carbon nanotubes. The initial ballistic tests performed in Australia, shows great potential of carbon nanotubes.

Only because you have no idea about research and development outside Vietnam, does not give you right to criticize them.
LMAO, look at this boy, he is an internet collector claimed professionals.
What did your Poland people do? Being invaded by German or Russian? Well, Vietnamese people knows more about war than you, we fought very powerful countries in the past, and real war is not like doing math on paper or googling around like you. In real war, miscalculate and lose your life, it is that simple, fanboys. Lol, carbon nanotube, material science, what do your Poland have?

Real war experience, Lebannon 2006 is contradicted to your calculation. Keep adding layer and layer, boy, I just look into reality, Mk4 was penetrated by outdated shaped charge, missile or rpg doesn't really matter. It seems your NERA only work on paper. Or Mk4 is outdated? LMAO, Mk4 is post 2000 tank
 

313230

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As far as I know, in "west", only Americans are interested in ERA like "Knife/Duplet". This is why they bought 4 T-84 tanks with this ERA for tests. It is not known how many "Knife" ERA spare kits were bought by USA, but the "great mystery" is that USA financed production start of "Knife" in Ukraine by purchasing Soviet technology, documentation etc. from Ukraine.



If you would know russian and talk with Russians, you would know that this story was a lie, someones fantasy, not real.



As Methos said, Merkava Mk4 have less armor than many other tanks due to it's specific design. As well you are making claims without knowing where tanks was hit, and if it was hit in a place protected by composite armor, or simple steel armor. Merkava Mk4 have even places protected by cast armor, which is complete archaism.



Tandem warhead is nothing special. There is a main charge and small precursor, this precursor charge can be defeated relatively easy if you know how much it penetrates.



And when metals like depleted uranium or tungsten become ceramics? :D
LMAO, tandem is nothing special, then what is special about NERA?
DU based ceramic, I do not care about your thought. Do you know what ceramics mean? Or in your simple words, strength is the same as hardness? LMAO
 

Damian

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LMAO, look at this boy, he is an internet collector claimed professionals.
What did your Poland people do? Being invaded by German or Russian? Well, Vietnamese people knows more about war than you, we fought very powerful countries in the past, and real war is not like doing math on paper or googling around like you. In real war, miscalculate and lose your life, it is that simple, fanboys. Lol, carbon nanotube, material science, what do your Poland have?
I find it funny, when people that have some inferiority complex like you, start to attack other nations.

But please, make idiot from yourself further, I always enjoy such morons. :)

Real war experience, Lebannon 2006 is contradicted to your calculation. Keep adding layer and layer, boy, I just look into reality, Mk4 was penetrated by outdated shaped charge, missile or rpg doesn't really matter. It seems your NERA only work on paper. Or Mk4 is outdated? LMAO, Mk4 is post 2000 tank
Merkava Mk4 is a specific design, it is very heavy, but in the same time it's armor is thinner than than in case of NATO tanks or Russian tanks due to it's design. However this does not mean that armor didn't worked, actually it worked preaty well on the battlefield protecting the tank and it's crews. However Merkava Mk4 and other Merkava variants, due to having engine at front, have no or very small amount of composite armor there, which means they are easier to be penetrated than other tank types.

Also not all surfaces are protected by NERA, composite or ERA, for example in case of the Merkava Mk4, hull sides where suspension is attached are not protected by anything else than simple steel armor. While hull sides aboe, where side sponsons are, are protected by relatively thick composite armor.

So everything depends on place where vehicle was hit.

Only because you do not understand such simple facts, gives me a lot to think about your intelectual capabilities.

LMAO, tandem is nothing special, then what is special about NERA?
DU based ceramic, I do not care about your thought. Do you know what ceramics mean? Or in your simple words, strength is the same as hardness? LMAO
There is nothing special about NERA.

And what DU based ceramic, show me armor with DU based ceramics, oh, wait there is no such thing in reality, perhaps another fantasy of yours.

Well if your only purpose here is to perform trolling, I report you to administration.
 
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nrj

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Guys, no personal attacks or name calling hereafter.
 

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