Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Andrei_bt]

Arjun with Kanchan

Kanchan - funny word for PR to show that India developed the semi-active combine armor package similar t othe US and Britain "Chobhaim" or Soviet "reflecting plate". It is the lewel of mid 70-s.

 

[Damian]

It's not a question of capability of tank fire controls to hit target at 6 000 m

I know, it is not a big problem, gunner need only to manually input range to FCS because at least in the older FCS's, software automatically limited automated range imput to 4000m. The new FCS's however can have such capability (FTL system need such capability so TC can use automated procedure to send coordinates for artillery, and it's use tank laser range finder).

but a question that -
- kontakt-5 ERA is not initiated by modern APFSDS
- not initiated by low velocity APFSDS
- not initiated by modern CE munitions.

Indeed, but the question is if even if M829A2/A3 do not initate ERA, it will be capable to perforate armor at such distance... it is probable however, as some states that drop in penetration capabilitis at longer distance is not that big. Maybe the most important factors here are penetrator weight and lenght.

The installation of K-5 ERA on Arjun-mk2 looks for me like a foolish idea.

Well, if You do not have nothing better, You use what You have.

I think that K-5 is not a real problem. Real problem is current turret design, it can be redesigned in real Arjun Mk2, but still I wonder why nobody bothered to design and build a dedicated cassettes for Arjun, especially for turret, because at least on that graphic, it seems that they just used standard cassettes, not nececary with shape optimized for Arjun turret shape.

 

[Andrei_bt]

Also we need to remember that US tested Kontakt-5 after collapse of Soviet Union, these were 1990's, so Russians were allready working on much newer ERA like 4S23 Relikt or a protection called Kaktus, while Ukrainians were allready working by then on Knife ERA.

It's still Kontakt-5 on T-90S, T-90A and so on as the new "Relikt" armor is obsolete before it entered service.

I mai remind this

to the left on the pic. 4 variants of ERA are shown.
1 - ordinary Kontakt - like on T-72B (and its Indian mod. by DRDO "Ajeya")
2 - Kontakt-5 (on t-90S, T-90A) - vs M829A1
3 - Relikt (now on the T-90S – Modernized. - vs M829A2
4 – multy-layer ERA. - vs future 140 mm.
---
1, 2 – completely obsolete.
3 – very soon become obsolete (not in service in Russia).
4 – not in service.


Ukrainians are already have "Noz" (Knife) in serial manufacture since 2004/
It is point - 3.
And now accepted to service new "Duplet", it is point -4. (protection from all kinds of 120 and future 140 mm rounds frontally, against tandem CE rounds at any angle of impact – hull, before engine compartments).

 

[Damian]

And I'm completely agree with this point.

Knife and Duplet are working on completely different principles than other types of ERA thus making them hard to be defeated.

However the question is, if it can be defeated? Perhaps yes, a segment penetrator that separates before impact or during it, but it will be very complex design, difficult to build. HEAT is allready ineffective against frontal armor protected by modern composite armor even without ERA. So it is out of a question to build a warhead with maybe separately fired precursor that will initiate cassettes before main warhead impact, maybe with a very large main warhead, but such warhead can be impractical in use.

It is possibl that in nearest future in order to increase vehicles protection without significant weight increase, we will se more AFV's protected by ERA similiar to Knife and Duplet.

BTW, what means these numbers in ХСЧКВ-19 and ХСЧКВ-34 designations? What are differences?

 

[Andrei_bt]

However the question is, if it can be defeated?

Nothing undefeatable exists.

HEAT is already ineffective

Funny joke you made ! This shows how good you know this topic

these numbers

New devices - less weight, lower cost.

 

[Damian]

Nothing undefeatable exists.

Yes, but it depends how long it will take before countermessure will be designed.

Funny joke you made ! This shows how good you know this topic

You are right, not completely ineffective, but frontal composite armors are allredy good enough to stop even big HEAT warheads. Of course it depends on armor composition and warhead itself.

Also do not be so smart ass, You also show how good You know this topic with Your silly estimations on western tanks armor thickness that proved to be complete BS. So do not pretend that You know everything. But I have enough informations to safely assume that modern composite armors are capable to effectively protect even against bigger tandem HEAT warheads.

New devices - less weight, lower cost.

Ok thanks.

 

[Andrei_bt]

You are right, not completely ineffective, but frontal composite armors are allredy good enough to stop even big HEAT warheads.

Why do you consider this? Ane real knowkadge?

 

[Damian]

Incident with AGM-114 (version not known), a man that seen tank after this incident (tank crew member) said that front turret was only penetrated to approx half of it's physical thickness, tank was most probably M1A1HA.

AGM-65 hit in front turret of M1A1HC named "Cojone Eh", some well informed people were also stating that jet did not penetrated front turret armor, and this is 300mm diameter, 57kg shaped charge warhead, not a small or weak thing.

RPG-29 was not capable to perforate M1 tanks frontal armor.

Kornet missile was not capable to perforate front armor of Merkava Mk4.

This doesen't mean that such weapon will not be capable to defeat these vehicles, it only proves that some areas are protected enough to withstand impact of big HEAT warhead (also tandem), and at least turret front is protected enough.

I think You are ignoring (intentionally or not) the fact that composite armors development did not ended, west still is working on newer and newer upgrades for these armors, and I do not see a reason why they are incapable to achieve similiar protection levels to example tank protected by heavy ERA (not same, similiar).

Also tests of DM12 in Germany proved that if it is capable to perforate ~600mm of RHA, penetration of composite armor decreased to only ~400mm. This is another reason why RHAe values for penetration of different types of ammunition, can't be directly used to describe protection offered by composite armors.

And any statements from manufacturers and designers are probably pure PR that is not nececary close to reality.

 

[Andrei_bt]

Incident with AGM-114 (version not known), a man that seen tank after this incident (tank crew member) said that front turret was only penetrated to approx half of it's physical thickness

Very funny sources,
better - use comics

 

[Damian]

What this makes a funny sources. So a US tank crew members is a worser source than a for example Ukrainian or Russian tank crew member?

Pffff this only shows Your "proffesionalism" and "objectivism"....

 

[Andrei_bt]

Exemple of modern CE penetrating th DOUBLE hull array of tank -

Turret with ERA - http://pics.livejournal.com/andrei_bt/pic/0000fzw9 penetrated with exit hole on opposite side.
This is the generaly same for all modern tanks.

 

[Andrei_bt]

Exemple of modern CE penetrating th DOUBLE hull array of tank -

Turret with ERA - http://pics.livejournal.com/andrei_bt/pic/0000fzw9 penetrated with exit hole on opposite side.
This is the generaly same for all modern tanks.

 

[Andrei_bt]

What this makes a funny sources. So a US tank crew members is a worser source than a for example Ukrainian or Russian tank crew member?

Pffff this only shows Your "proffesionalism" and "objectivism"....

You have only rumors with no understanding of real situation.

 

[Damian]

You have only rumors with no understanding of real situation.

And You have what? Your biased opinion? You have any hard data on frontal protection of NATO tanks (and similiar to them designs)? Maybe You participated in tests of their armor protection? No, none of these.

Exemple of modern CE penetrating th DOUBLE hull array of tank -
Turret with ERA - http://pics.livejournal.com/andrei_bt/pic/0000fzw9 penetrated with exit hole on opposite side.
This is the generaly same for all modern tanks.

'

Oh really, we have here something that look like T-64 or T-72 (not certain) designs much older than currently used 3/3+ generation MBT's. So how this can be same. You are base Your opinions about other MBT's protection on tests that as a target used old tank?!

When You will participate in ballistic tests of M1A2SEP, Leopard 2A6 or Leclerc just let me know... and of course show a proof for Your generlized statements, hard proof.

 

[Andrei_bt]

No, none of these.

looks like you in polland know better what I have, or not.

we have here something that look like T-64 or T-72

T-80B...
And T-72A... double hull protection with ERA - http://s015.radikal.ru/i333/1108/e3/2509e5011e4a.jpg

You live in fantasy world

 

[Damian]

looks like you in polland know better what I have, or not.

Do You consider that we actually know better? We actually are using one type of western MBT's. We actually proved that You estimations of this tank armor thickness is pure fantasy.

So:

You live in fantasy world

Who is living in a fantasy world? You and only You with Your silly pseudo "patriotism", and biased opinions that are pure propaganda of KMDB.

T-80B...

Ah yes, a very "modern" tank with very "modern" protection... from 70's...

And T-72A... double hull protection with ERA - http://s015.radikal.ru/i333/1108/e3/2509e5011e4a.jpg

Another very "modern" tank with very "modern" protection.

Who is silly here, You are posting photos of old tanks as equivalent of modern machines.

I'm just waiting for absurd situation when Andrei will post photo of old T-34 serving as a target on proving ground as a proof to his statements.

 

[Damian]

BTW about Andrei fantasy.

Reality:

Fantasy:

БАРС против ЛЕОПАРДА

 

[Andrei_bt]

Reality:

Where is the left side? Why nothing is visible?

 

[Damian]

Where is the left side? Why nothing is visible?

What left side? It is the left side of turret..., right side of turret below sight is same as left side, behind main sight is ~600-650mm...


Maybe in Your fantasy world measure is a manipulation made by evil CIA!

 

[Andrei_bt]

Ah yes, a very "modern" tank with very "modern" protection... from 70's...

As vell as Leopards-2, Abrams and most others. By the way new produced PT-91 in polland have even less protection than T-80B, but they a produced in 2000.

Who is silly here,

Of course you are. A famous polish fakemaster, I seen you pictures on other forums.
Living in a fairy tales about invincible western tanks is very funny, I suppose.