Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

p2prada

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Mk2 looks like It is a huge disappointment, we do see antic Kontakt-type ERA on the turret.
Mine plough - it is also available on any tank.
Iron Fist APS - it is not shown on the picture.
This design wasn't created by the designers of the tank. It's like all those pictures of PAKFA we have been seeing before the main model was shown to the public. So, take it with a pinch of salt.

The Arjun Mk2 will have K-5 ERA in the first few models and will someday carry NERA or NxRA(no idea which).

Iron Fist isn't shown but there was official news about having chosen it for Arjun.

There are supposed to be 93 improvements with 13 major improvements.
 

p2prada

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is this same guy in the pic accepting Arjun tank keys, same guy who said Arjun is uptodate tech or something like that.
This was when the first order for 124 tanks was given and DRDO wanted more(500 to break even). This was when he said Arjun is a world class product but the Army is looking at a more futuristic option instead and hence the numbers were capped at 124 for Mk1.

Then came all that comparative trials issues between Army and DRDO. He was the center of it all. Him posing for photos does not change his views just like that. After all he was the DGMF and they give the keys to the DGMF no matter what his affiliation.

DRDO promised an improved Mk2 and another 124 orders were placed. This isn't a one man show. The decisions for such major systems are taken by a group of people.

BTW heard that FMBT GSQR are again going to re written by the new DGMF.
Only a PSQR has been made, so GSQR will take time and will obviously be handled by the present DGMF.
 

Austin

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This is a good thread on 3BM42 round
3bm42 one thing interesting - Tanknet

This is what Vasiliy Fofanov says

Projectile assembly of BM42M: 730mm. In-flight projectile of BM42M: 700mm (approximate, unconfirmed). Penetrator of BM42M: 570mm (approximate, unconfirmed).

The "574mm" that I stated is the length of in-flight projectile of BM42. Yes, full BM42 projectileis about the length of BM42M penetrator alone. This may seem like a truly spectacular leap, but one should note that between BM42 and BM42M there were two more rounds, BM39 and BM46 that smooth this leap out. E.g. BM46 had a ~546mm U monobloc penetrator.
 

p2prada

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So, it's 570mm on 42M with L: D of 22:1 vs 800mm on M829A3 with L: D of 30:1. Who wins? :D
 

Damian

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From top.

1) BM48
2) BM44M
3)?
4) M829A2
5) DM53
6)?
 
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Austin

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What are not so classified known penetration figures of US and German APFSDS ?

M829A2 , M829A3
DM53
 

Austin

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So, it's 570mm on 42M with L: D of 22:1 vs 800mm on M829A3 with L: D of 30:1. Who wins? :D
If i am not way off mark , 42M is a 20 years old design whose peers were most likely M829A/A1 , From what i understand 42M were never exported at all , but prasun told me in Malaysia he saw a round that was different from 42 , and Rosoboronexport dishes out the 42M round as high performing rounds
125MM APFSDS ROUNDS

The average penetration figures of 600 - 600 mm RHA is still much better then 42 and I think we may be using it , so no reason why we shouldnt when they have advertised it.

M829A3 is more comparable to 3BM59 and 60 , and recently Gur Khan shared some penetration figures ( non-classfied ) and one of then had figures comparable to M829A3 that i see on internet.
 

Damian

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What are not so classified known penetration figures of US and German APFSDS ?

M829A2 , M829A3
DM53
There are only estimations, I doubt that manufacturers would present precise values for the most predictible hit angles, distance and what material was penetrated (there will be difference between RHA monobloc and composite armor and a difference if there will be combo ERA + RHA monobloc or ERA + composite armor).

M829A3 is more comparable to 3BM59 and 60 , and recently Gur Khan shared some penetration figures ( non-classfied ) and one of then had figures comparable to M829A3 that i see on internet.
I would be very carefull with any penetration values, because non of such data for public is complete with very specific and important informations, like these I mentioned above.
 

Andrei_bt

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M829A3 is more comparable to 3BM59 and 60 , and recently Gur Khan shared some penetration figures ( non-classfied ) and one of then had figures comparable to M829A3 that i see on internet.
He is a well known misinformer, I remember he stated (it was 8 years before now) that T-90S cannot be penetrated by M829A2, now we now it can be penetrated from 6 000 m.
So I do not advice to believe such a «fake master» like him.
 

Andrei_bt

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If i am not way off mark , 42M is a 20 years old design whose peers were most likely M829A/A1 , From what i understand 42M were never exported at all , but prasun told me in Malaysia he saw a round that was different from 42 , and Rosoboronexport dishes out the

The average penetration figures of 600 - 600 mm RHA is still much better then 42 and I think we may be using it , so no reason why we shouldnt when they have advertised it.

M829A3 is more comparable to 3BM59 and 60 , and recently Gur Khan shared some penetration figures ( non-classfied ) and one of then had figures comparable to M829A3 that i see on internet.
"Rosoboronexport" and "NIMI" showed this round in 1194, but it is still failed in production.
Main reasons is limitation of T-72(T-90) autoloader and fail with hard ally powder metallurgy.
 

Damian

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He is a well known misinformer, I remember he stated (it was 8 years before now) that T-90S cannot be penetrated by M829A2, now we now it can be penetrated from 6 000 m.
6000m! It is unbelivable, it would mean that T-90 do not offer any protection in typical distance of tank vs tank fights (~1000-4000m), not only against M829A2 but also much older M829A1 can be very dangerous over frontal arc. Not to mention such monster like M829A3.

A simple not nececary to be close to truth theory.

Classic Heavy ERA is not effective against modern APFSDS.

Composite armor without heavy metal alloy elements is not effective against modern APFSDS.

So there are only two solutions left.

Western with very heavy composite armor with heavy metal alloy elements (proved by tests in Greece and several other incidents on the real battlefield). Note that weight here is not nececary indicator of offered protection. Currently we know that these armors are not just passive layers of different materials but there are also reactive (dynamic) elements in them, so these have a more common design to NERA or Non Energetic Reactive Armor.

Ukrainian solution with completely new type of ERA that use shaped charges to cut enemy projectiles before they hit main armor.

But still without any independent comparision tests any statement can't be proved.

And without hard data from independent tests, all these statements can be good enough close to the truth or are complete bollocks.

However the fact is fact, US tested not only 4S22 Kontakt-5 mounted on some old T-72 variants but also had opportunity to test it on T-80U (there is mentioned one tank procured by US through and with UK support, however there is also possibility that more were tested), also Knife ERA could be tested on 4 T-80UD's sold by Ukraine to US, there were some info's that at least of two of these tanks were upgraded to T-84 standard (they were Object 478BE?).

Not to mention that besides Pakistan, also Greece (Cyprus) and South Korea are also using T-80U's. So there should be no problem to US to make some tests and design APFSDS projectile optimized to defeat composite armor protected by classic heavy ERA like Kontakt-5. Of course protection offered by Relikt can and is definetly higher but still, these APFSDS rods can better defeat them than ammunition not designed with heavy ERA in mind.

The significant problem is with Knife and Duplet ERA, because it works on completely different principles, and it is highly possible that there is no way to design ammunition that can deal with it effectively.

So in this I would agree with Andrei_bt on superiority of Knife/Duplet over other ERA.
 
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Austin

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He is a well known misinformer, I remember he stated (it was 8 years before now) that T-90S cannot be penetrated by M829A2, now we now it can be penetrated from 6 000 m.
So I do not advice to believe such a «fake master» like him.
Where did Russia or any one who tested got the M829A2 round in the first place becuase US does not export DU rounds. And they would need many DU rounds plus the Gun to make any scientific study on the performance of A2 versus T-90 frontal arc with ERA

So to make claims of penetration ( of for that matter non penetration ) can be misleading at best and mischievous at worst.
 

Austin

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"Rosoboronexport" and "NIMI" showed this round in 1194, but it is still failed in production.
Main reasons is limitation of T-72(T-90) autoloader and fail with hard ally powder metallurgy.
It depends on who you ask , becuase I have received both kind of information one that you say which is not in production and one which says its being in use , In fact I am not even certain what rounds the Indian T-90 uses becuase as such it has not been advertised.

Ofourse do not confuse the T-90 rounds with T-72 which uses Israel Mk1 and Mk2 125 mm round , the Indian T-90 can only fire Russian rounds and the other rounds tested were giving sub optimum performance for couple of known reasons.
 

Austin

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Classic Heavy ERA is not effective against modern APFSDS.
I would be very careful with such statements , because you have to define classic and you have to define APFSDS. In experiments conducted by US with K-5 against M828/A1 it proved to be effective.

But M829 has not remained stagnant since then neither has ERA

Composite armor without heavy metal alloy elements is not effective against modern APFSDS.
Hmm could be true , Indian Kanchan is a heavy metal alloy used in composite armour , T-90 Composite armour composition is not know.

However the fact is fact, US tested not only 4S22 Kontakt-5 mounted on some old T-72 variants but also had opportunity to test it on T-80U (there is mentioned one tank procured by US through and with UK support,
US never tested T-90 with modern K-5 . neither did they tested Arjun with Kanchan .so lets not use the same brush to paint all the tanks , since US tested older K-5 on T-72 or had the opportunity to test T-80U. Sweeping generalisation without any scientific data to back up I would be careful.

Infact so far we really know nothing on the T-80U test that US did with M829 varient round , We have yet to see any hard technical data on how it went. It must have been great or it would have been other wise , we dont know on the nature of test.

Not to mention that besides Pakistan, also Greece (Cyprus) and South Korea are also using T-80U's. So there should be no problem to US to make some tests and design APFSDS projectile optimized to defeat composite armor
Again sweeping generalisation assuming since US got these tanks it might well easily defeat it , Russia never got any M1 yet some RPG defeated its side armour , the Kornet never was tested against Merks before it was made yet it performed well against Merks. Same can be said of the the defeat of T-72 by US M1 or in urban warfare by Checnians , these systems never were tested against each other till they faced each other.

Of course protection offered by Relikt can and is definetly higher but still, these APFSDS rods can better defeat them than ammunition not designed with heavy ERA in mind.
Again lets not generalise it based on some K-5 test done in mid 90's and say oh US defeated it then so now all APFSDS can defeat the ERA , thats similar to saying the RPG-29 defeated side armour of M1 , so now ever tank in the world can be defeated by RPG-29 . its just unfair since the armour composition can be different or even its possible M1 would have moved on with better armour thats unlikely to be defeated by RPG in the future. The truth is we dont know.
 

Damian

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Austin, I think You misunderstood my post. I did not write it as a turth, it was pure theoretization in simplified way.

I would be very careful with such statements , because you have to define classic and you have to define APFSDS. In experiments conducted by US with K-5 against M828/A1 it proved to be effective.

But M829 has not remained stagnant since then neither has ERA
Of course I agree completely.

Hmm could be true , Indian Kanchan is a heavy metal alloy used in composite armour , T-90 Composite armour composition is not know.
Kanchan do not use heavy metals alloys, nor DU nor Tungsten as it seems from it's description.

It is rather similiar to early 80's NATO armors like BRL-1, BRL-2 and the German one, but not to the late 80's, 90's and early XXI Century NATO armors that indeed are using heavy metal alloys.

US never tested T-90 with modern K-5 .
T-90 from what we can know right now have the same armor or very similiar to T-72B, it would be not a problem for US to get T-72B from Ukraine or Belarus. Different beast is T-90A, then I would agree.

neither did they tested Arjun with Kanchan .so lets not use the same brush to paint all the tanks , since US tested older K-5 on T-72 or had the opportunity to test T-80U. Sweeping generalisation without any scientific data to back up I would be careful.
Indeed, so why You are assuming that US tested "old" Kontakt-5 whatever this means... And T-80U had rather advanced protection even in 1990's.

Infact so far we really know nothing on the T-80U test that US did with M829 varient round , We have yet to see any hard technical data on how it went. It must have been great or it would have been other wise , we dont know on the nature of test.
Nature of tests ir rather easy to deduce... test vehicle, also it's protection, and find a way to defeat this protection.

Again sweeping generalisation assuming since US got these tanks it might well easily defeat it , Russia never got any M1 yet some RPG defeated its side armour , the Kornet never was tested against Merks before it was made yet it performed well against Merks. Same can be said of the the defeat of T-72 by US M1 or in urban warfare by Checnians , these systems never were tested against each other till they faced each other.
RPG's and ATGM's performed well hitting side weaker protected areas, it is rather difficult, especially then was difficult to protect vehicles there, especially that for a very long period US did not have any up-armor kit for these weaker protected areas, and Israelis made multiple mistakes that led Hezbollah to attack their tanks on side or even rear armor, that is from definition weaker than frontal armor.

Again lets not generalise it based on some K-5 test done in mid 90's and say oh US defeated it then so now all APFSDS can defeat the ERA , thats similar to saying the RPG-29 defeated side armour of M1 , so now ever tank in the world can be defeated by RPG-29 . its just unfair since the armour composition can be different or even its possible M1 would have moved on with better armour thats unlikely to be defeated by RPG in the future. The truth is we dont know.
Of course that armor technology moved on, this is why Russians get new 4S23 Relikt, Ukrainians have it's Knife/Duplet and Americans are replacing composite armor inserts in their tanks (also on turret sides), and effect on each tank will be different.

But this doesen't mean that we can't assume something, based on a common sense, it can be far, or close to truth, but without asking and seeking answers we do not go anywhere.
 

Austin

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Austin, I think You misunderstood my post. I did not write it as a turth, it was pure theoretization in simplified way.
Oh thats possible , English is not my first language ;)


Kanchan do not use heavy metals alloys, nor DU nor Tungsten as it seems from it's description.
From what I have seen Kanchan are actually metal plates that are inserted between composite armour , Now I really have no clue if that stuff is harder then Tungsten or DU , It certainly is some hard metal made of multiple alloys, who knows it may have properties better then DU or Tungsten.

T-90 from what we can know right now have the same armor or very similiar to T-72B, it would be not a problem for US to get T-72B from Ukraine or Belarus. Different beast is T-90A, then I would agree.
Oh the original T-90 had cast iron turret and the T-90A has Welded Turret perhaps with a different composition , I just read it has 12 layer composite armour , but since India has T-90S i would be more concerned with the latter.

Indeed, so why You are assuming that US tested "old" Kontakt-5 whatever this means... And T-80U had rather advanced protection even in 1990's.
Well what I have seen is Kontact-5 has evolved too , initially it used to be like short bulky metal brick similar to the ERA you see on Indian T-72 and now on Bheeshma it has become flatter and uses less explosive , I do think K-5 would similarly evolved over the decades between them since they were first introduced in 1985. And ofcourse knowing the fact the US tested the K-5 ERA the Russian would have one more good reason to improve it capability as US has improved its APFSDS.

Some how the Russians have this mentality of developing systems or counter-systems based on US development and not on similar Europen system , you can see that thought process with NII STALI compared evolution of US APFSDS increasing by 35 cm every year and not about German or UK or French APFSDS. Russians usually even in other conventional systems takes US as its benchmark to evolve , wheather they suceed in it or not is a different matter altogether.

Nature of tests ir rather easy to deduce... test vehicle, also it's protection, and find a way to defeat this protection.
Ofcourse thats true but then you have multiple test firing from different range angle speed to get a complete picture and to have substantial data as possible the more data using as many permutations and combinations the better.

RPG's and ATGM's performed well hitting side weaker protected areas, it is rather difficult, especially then was difficult to protect vehicles there, especially that for a very long period US did not have any up-armor kit for these weaker protected areas, and Israelis made multiple mistakes that led Hezbollah to attack their tanks on side or even rear armor, that is from definition weaker than frontal armor.
Actually it would be good to get such data of side attack at 0 degrees from RPG-29 on other western tanks like Leo 2 , Leclerc , Chally 2 . I am fairly certain not all will just blow up as the armour composition might just be different for these.

Well I would rather expect the enemy to hit your weak spots , thats even true for country in conventional classic tank to tank battle where waiting for an opportunity to hit your weakest area is preferable , No one likes to hit the strongest area becuase the likely hood of it getting defeated is very low , Like the frontal turret versus RPG-29

But this doesen't mean that we can't assume something, based on a common sense, it can be far, or close to truth, but without asking and seeking answers we do not go anywhere.
Ofcourse we can always assume and there is nothing wrong in it , but the weakness is assumption lies in the fact that the assumption on which the entire theory builds up might be wrong , or the assumption might not partially true.
 

Damian

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From what I have seen Kanchan are actually metal plates that are inserted between composite armour , Now I really have no clue if that stuff is harder then Tungsten or DU , It certainly is some hard metal made of multiple alloys, who knows it may have properties better then DU or Tungsten.
Hardness is not the only one feature of heavy metal alloy, more important is density. But of course we do not know exact features of DU or Tungsten alloys used for armor protection, these alloys maybe are much more different than alloys used for APFSDS penetrators. Not to mention that our knowledge about even alloys used in modern penetrators is limited.

Oh the original T-90 had cast iron turret and the T-90A has Welded Turret perhaps with a different composition , I just read it has 12 layer composite armour , but since India has T-90S i would be more concerned with the latter.
The original T-90 or Object 188, initially to be designated T-72BU was just T-72B on "steroids", these "stroids" were all the goodies from T-80U/UD tank, like commander cupola or 1A45 FCS. The T-72B/T-90 turrets were welded from (CHA) cast steel elements (not iron!). The T-90A or Object 188A1/188A2 have a turret completely welded from RHA rolled plates.

The overall armor design should not change between T-72B and T-90, also Kholotpov himself (also known as Gur Khan) had shown on his blog a drawing of possible array in T-90A, it looks similiar to that from the earlier tanks, materials used however, can be different.

Well what I have seen is Kontact-5 has evolved too , initially it used to be like short bulky metal brick similar to the ERA you see on Indian T-72 and now on Bheeshma it has become flatter and uses less explosive , I do think K-5 would similarly evolved over the decades between them since they were first introduced in 1985. And ofcourse knowing the fact the US tested the K-5 ERA the Russian would have one more good reason to improve it capability as US has improved its APFSDS.
I think You confused something. 4S22 Kontakt-5 was allways placed in cassettes like we seen them today, maybe You confused 4S22 with older 4S20 Kontakt-1 that is also seen on Indian T-72M1 tanks.

Also we need to remember that US tested Kontakt-5 after collapse of Soviet Union, these were 1990's, so Russians were allready working on much newer ERA like 4S23 Relikt or a protection called Kaktus, while Ukrainians were allready working by then on Knife ERA.

However a response for Kontakt-5 was M829A2 fielded around 1994-1995, while M829A3 a long term solution was fielded around 2003. However the development of M829 series did not ended, currently experimental M829E4 is in the final development stage and soon should be fielded under designation M829A4.

Some how the Russians have this mentality of developing systems or counter-systems based on US development and not on similar Europen system , you can see that thought process with NII STALI compared evolution of US APFSDS increasing by 35 cm every year and not about German or UK or French APFSDS. Russians usually even in other conventional systems takes US as its benchmark to evolve , wheather they suceed in it or not is a different matter altogether.
This is completely natural, western Europe by the whole Cold War did not have even single spectacular R&D program for AFV's and their weapon systems (besides the Rhinemetall 120mm gun, and the BRL-1/BRL-2 armor), however US for the whole cold war was allways keen to test any new ideas. For example the US was first to implement composite armor on their tanks and guess what I do not talking about Silicaous Core Armor developed in 50's-60's, I am talking about HCR2 armor kit for M4 Sherman tanks developed during WWII. Indeed, US and UK were experimenting on different special armors (composite) during WWII!

Of course due to several different reasons, mainly technological, these were not succesfull by then but, experiences gained with these research programs finally ended with Burlington armor (BRL-1 and BRL-2) that was again, more a coodeveloped between US and UK (of course it was mainly developed in UK) than sole UK design, as both countries had close relationship in composite armors development.

So it is obvious that Russians will rather compare their developments with developments of someone as creative as they are.

Ofcourse thats true but then you have multiple test firing from different range angle speed to get a complete picture and to have substantial data as possible the more data using as many permutations and combinations the better.
This is why Americans tried to test as many vehicles as it was possible. It is still unknown how many in reality, Soviet tanks from the former Soviet republics they managed to purchase... not nececary legally.

Actually it would be good to get such data of side attack at 0 degrees from RPG-29 on other western tanks like Leo 2 , Leclerc , Chally 2 . I am fairly certain not all will just blow up as the armour composition might just be different for these.
As far as I seen fragment of M1 tank armor, Merkava Mk4 armor, we consider close relationship between US and UK and also that all of big western manufacturers of tanks are close allies, when I consider a description of Leopard 2 armor array I can say to You that these designs seems to be very similiar to each other, of course there can be some differences between them, but I would not expect any significant differences.

Well I would rather expect the enemy to hit your weak spots , thats even true for country in conventional classic tank to tank battle where waiting for an opportunity to hit your weakest area is preferable , No one likes to hit the strongest area becuase the likely hood of it getting defeated is very low , Like the frontal turret versus RPG-29
Yes, but there are allways weight and size issues, but recently western designers tend to keep in mind lessons learned and are offering up-armor kits for their tanks.

Ofcourse we can always assume and there is nothing wrong in it , but the weakness is assumption lies in the fact that the assumption on which the entire theory builds up might be wrong , or the assumption might not partially true.
And I'm completely agree with this, this is why I said I'am only assuming something and it is not nececary close to truth.
 

Andrei_bt

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6000m! It is unbelivable, it would mean that T-90 do not offer any protection in typical distance of tank vs tank fights
It's not a question of capability of tank fire controls to hit target at 6 000 m, but a question that -
- kontakt-5 ERA is not initiated by modern APFSDS
- not initiated by low velocity APFSDS
- not initiated by modern CE munitions.

The installation of K-5 ERA on Arjun-mk2 looks for me like a foolish idea.
 

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