Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Godless-Kafir]

View attachment 4068

And this is what?

Arjun weight 58 tons, leclerc 54, Arjun use hydrogas suspension and Leclerc use hydrogas suspension, Arjun use 1400HP engine and Leclerc 1500HP, so explain me, how it is possible that Arjun can travel on roads 75 km/h and Leclerc only 71?



My BS? This is Your sources not my.

1) We where never comparing with Leclerc here. Compare with t-90.

2) Where does it say Arjun travels 75kms? Also Gear box does the difference.

3) You said 80s tech, what sights does Arjun have and Leopard have?

 

[p2prada]

Sure they have governors, but then again, how it is possible to Arjun, being heavier, with weaker engine and smaller power to weight ratio being faster than Leclerc? Arjun also use governor, so why French guys governed Leclerc even more? This have no logic.

It is one of those typical DRDO brochures. The brochure only claims the goal of the project, not the real values of what is currently achieved. The 75Kmph will be the speed achieved possibly when the tank is upgraded with a 1500HP engine.

It was the same with our aircraft LCA. They were printing final objective specs on brochures until as far as 2010. The minute IAF was given the aircraft the actual figures started tumbling out.

 

[Archer]

You are doing everything except actually providing the "proof."

We aren't even asking for a source, just use simple logic. Give us math to work on, like gun's muzzle velocity and pressure. Give us the exact weight and dimensions of the shell, projectile and penetrator. Very simple for a man of extraordinary calibre such as yourself to provide. You are obviously in the know with the developers.

If you can give us the size and composition of armour on the Arjun on the turret and perhaps even the hull. Give us the quality of armour as well.

You see without these things you cannot prove the Arjun is superior to the T-90. Among both tanks, Arjun is an unknown quantity while the T-90 is not. It is very easy to compare the two if actual or even approximate figures are known.

But I see what your answer will be like. You will write a paragraph or two saying how I am a teenager, internet jockey in your words and how my head is in a bucket of water. Then you will insult a bunch of Polish guys who don't even give a fig about Russia. Then you will claim how great you are for another paragraph. Then, if we are really lucky, you will say you "don't know" the actual figures but that the guy you spoke to for 3 minutes in a stall(number 146) in the previous expo was positive the Arjun is superior.

Am I far from the mark?

You are pretty far from the mark because I have spoonfed you before and I saw what the result was. And no, I dont care a fig about the Polish guys, if like you, they cannot be bothered about keeping a civil tongue in their head. The teenager comment seems to have hit pretty close to the mark.

About the armor & ammo - sorry, no spoonfeeding - there is ample evidence out there but I am not going to do *your job* for you by collecting it. The Arjun is intended for war. Not for your "extraordinary caliber" to figure out.

What I will say is this. And this has been confirmed by multiple sources, both user and developer.

- The Arjun is more heavily armored and protected than the T-90.

- The Army's then DGMF made a public deposition that this should not matter, because the Arjun is a heavy MBT and the T-90 is a medium MBT. Being in different classes, they contended it was unfair to the T-90 to be expected to be as heavily armored as the Arjun. The Parliamentary Committee accepted this, but also pointed out that as the Arjun was developed to the Armys GSQR as a tank killer, which the Army accepted.

- In the last armor trials, the Arjun (and its armor arrays) were fired against using a variety of state of the art ammunition, at a variety of service ranges (including unrealistic ones) to overmatch even predicted threats. The Arjun cleared every one. These results were what led to statement 1, that for tank to tank warfare, the Arjun is more heavily armored than the T-90.

-The Army had two specific reccommendations for the Arjun; for enhanced protection against attack choppers they wanted all around ERA (including placement to the rear) and ERA allowed for modular refit even in forward areas. This is being incorporated in MK2.

Beyond this, I am done talking to you, unless you ask sane questions versus fixating on mythical Russian vaporware.

 

[Damian]

1) We where never comparing with Leclerc here. Compare with t-90.

But Your officials does, look at picture.

2) Where does it say Arjun travels 75kms? Also Gear box does the difference.

Your blind, look at photo. And hwat makes You think that French gearbox is inferior to Indian one?

3) You said 80s tech, what sights does Arjun have and Leopard have?

It seems that Arjun use something based on EMES-15 from 1980's, EMES-15 is sued still in all Leopard 2 tank variants, it is good system but for current standards represented by French or US or Israeli sights and FCS is old technology.

Arjun main sight is definetly based on EMES-15 from what I seen on that video.

 

[Tronic]

Links where there is table showing us that tank that is heavier, have weaker engine and same suspension type is faster on roads than lighter tank with stronger engine and same suspension type? Where is a logic? This is just impossible.

Arjun engine: 1400HP (to be replaced by 1500HP)
T-90 engine: 1000HP

Arjun suspension: Hydropneumatic suspension (advanced Hydraulics technology evolved throughout the years)
T-90 suspension: Torsion bar (quite basic technology dates back WW2; your car uses torsion bar suspension)


Moreover, the Arjun tanks are designed for Network Centric warfare capability; where else no such capability exists in the T-90.



This is just for starters, there are many other things, like its armour, which puts the Arjun in a league above the T-90.

 

[Archer]

Sure they have governors, but then again, how it is possible to Arjun, being heavier, with weaker engine and smaller power to weight ratio being faster than Leclerc? Arjun also use governor, so why French guys governed Leclerc even more? This have no logic.

Oh for crying out loud, and you claim to have an understanding of tanks? Go look up the Challengers performance and see its engine performance and see the otherwise respectable performance. The specs you are complaining about are final top speeds. Leclerc with the wartsila hyperbar may have better acceleration overall, and yes, the French Army may have asked for a lower top road speed since they did not see a need for it!

 

[Damian]

- The Arjun is more heavily armored and protected than the T-90.

How, weight is not armor protection indicator these days.

- In the last armor trials, the Arjun (and its armor arrays) were fired against using a variety of state of the art ammunition, at a variety of service ranges (including unrealistic ones) to overmatch even predicted threats. The Arjun cleared every one. These results were what led to statement 1, that for tank to tank warfare, the Arjun is more heavily armored than the T-90.

Simple question, what ammunition was used against Arjun armor? it is simple question, even monkey would be abale to answer for it.

-The Army had two specific reccommendations for the Arjun; for enhanced protection against attack choppers they wanted all around ERA (including placement to the rear) and ERA allowed for modular refit even in forward areas. This is being incorporated in MK2.

I wonder how they wan't to place ERA on the tanks rear, even on ventilations screens?

 

[Tronic]

nvm. It seems the discussion has shifted from comparing the Arjun with T-90 to comparing the Arjun with Leclerc. I'm not surprised.

 

[Damian]

Go look up the Challengers performance and see its engine performance and see the otherwise respectable performance.

Challenger 2 is a turtle compared to other modern MBT's, this are facts, it is a turtle, and British MoD made it even more slower after latest uparmor kit was installed, that thing weight is 80 tons now, and suspension is not capabale to withstand that weight.

The specs you are complaining about are final top speeds. Leclerc with the wartsila hyperbar may have better acceleration overall, and yes, the French Army may have asked for a lower top road speed since they did not see a need for it!

So why Indian Army needed so fast tank on roads? Why? Hmmm?

 

[Archer]

It seems that Arjun use something based on EMES-15 from 1980's, EMES-15 is sued still in all Leopard 2 tank variants, it is good system but for current standards represented by French or US or Israeli sights and FCS is old technology.

Arjun main sight is definetly based on EMES-15 from what I seen on that video.

Sigh...

India never acquired the EMES-15...."definetly based" indeed...
The Arjun FCS is a hybrid Indo-Dutch-French one, using a Sagem Thermal Imager (Matis). The GPS is a Dutch one, developed by a Dutch company, the BC is Indian, the Ballistic sensors are from Switzerland, the Gun sight controller is from India, the GCS is from Rexroth Germany. overall, its a modern system which has outperformed the T-90 in gunnery trials..

 

[Archer]

Challenger 2 is a turtle compared to other modern MBT's, this are facts, it is a turtle, and British MoD made it even more slower after latest uparmor kit was installed, that thing weight is 80 tons now, and suspension is not capabale to withstand that weight.

So, how is it able to achieve any sort of speed with its heavy uparmor kit? Now does it strike you that there is more to the tank than a top speed? And also how much time that speed is achieved in?

So why Indian Army needed so fast tank on roads? Why? Hmmm?

Because they did! It could have been something as simple as comparing it to other tanks of a type, and wanting something better, or something more detailed based on speeds above "x km/hr", which DRDO gave them. You are looking for issues where there are none.

 

[Archer]

How, weight is not armor protection indicator these days.

I see, so if two designers have equivalent tech armor arrays, the one with more weight available to him won't have an advantage? Brilliant. Also, Heavily armoured = english for better armored.

Simple question, what ammunition was used against Arjun armor? it is simple question, even monkey would be abale to answer for it.

Perfect, then obviously you know the answer, right?

I wonder how they wan't to place ERA on the tanks rear, even on ventilations screens?

Because the Army did not ask for it in their original GSQRs.

 

[Archer]

It is one of those typical DRDO brochures. The brochure only claims the goal of the project, not the real values of what is currently achieved. The 75Kmph will be the speed achieved possibly when the tank is upgraded with a 1500HP engine.

It was the same with our aircraft LCA. They were printing final objective specs on brochures until as far as 2010. The minute IAF was given the aircraft the actual figures started tumbling out.

Rubbish. The 75 kmph refers to what trained drivers from the Army at CVRDE have achieved. Heck, even the Autocar India team driving the Arjun for the first time took it to 70 Kmph.

Arjun Autocar Report

 

[Damian]

India never acquired the EMES-15...."definetly based" indeed...
The Arjun FCS is a hybrid Indo-Dutch-French one, using a Sagem Thermal Imager (Matis). The GPS is a Dutch one, developed by a Dutch company, the BC is Indian, the Ballistic sensors are from Switzerland, the Gun sight controller is from India, the GCS is from Rexroth Germany. overall, its a modern system which has outperformed the T-90 in gunnery trials..

And still, image is just as same as in EMES-15, I saw how EMES-15 thermal image look like, here it is just same.

So, how is it able to achieve any sort of speed with its heavy uparmor kit? Now does it strike you that there is more to the tank than a top speed? And also how much time that speed is achieved in?

It can barely move.

I see, so if two designers have equivalent tech armor arrays, the one with more weight available to him won't have an advantage? Brilliant. Also, Heavily armoured = english for better armored.

Weight of vehicle have not much to do with armor itself but more with size of vehicle, You should know that. And don't teach me english I know it well enough.

Perfect, then obviously you know the answer, right?

I ask again, what types of ammunition were used, if they were state of the art then You should have no problems thanks to Your connections to give us designation names of these rounds.

Because the Army did not ask for it in their original GSQRs.

Ah, so suddenly Arjun engine don't need ventilation?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

But Your officials does, look at picture.

You where comparing with t-90 dont troll around and derail, Yes the officials do compare, there is nothing wrong in that except the top speed which is due to governor or gear box. The cog in the top gear may be slightly larger, does not mean it is superior!

Your blind, look at photo. And hwat makes You think that French gearbox is inferior to Indian one?

3kmps does not make a tank inferior or superior. You must be silly to say that. DRDO may have clocked 75km/hr and 3km more does not mean shit. It does not prove superiority. Did you check cross country speed?

It seems that Arjun use something based on EMES-15 from 1980's, EMES-15 is sued still in all Leopard 2 tank variants, it is good system but for current standards represented by French or US or Israeli sights and FCS is old technology.

Arjun main sight is definetly based on EMES-15 from what I seen on that video.

Definitely? http://www.bel-india.com/index.aspx?q=&sectionid=315

Troll FAIL? You wont stop now will you now that you have hurt your ego. It looks the same? May be your PC is shit and you need a new monitor. How do you look at the monitor and compare? How old are you! lol.

 

[Damian]

3kmps does not make a tank inferior or superior. You must be silly to say that. DRDO may have clocked 75km/hr and 3km more does not mean shit. It does not prove superiority. Did you check cross country speed?

At least in the cross country speed they were more fair.

Definitely?

Link don't work.

And still, for me it looks like EMES-15, same crosshair, similiar resolution.

 

[Archer]

And still, image is just as same as in EMES-15, I saw how EMES-15 thermal image look like, here it is just same.

Have you used both sights to say this? Or are you going by TV images of what the Sagem MATIS can do?

It can barely move.

Yeah, sure but what about top speed on the UK Army sites?

Weight of vehicle have not much to do with armor itself but more with size of vehicle, You should know that.

Oh come on..

And don't teach me english I know it well enough.

Far better than my non existen Polish, but you misinterpret a lot of what I have said.

I ask again, what types of ammunition were used, if they were state of the art then You should have no problems thanks to Your connections to give us designation names of these rounds.

Why exactly, again should I know this sort of info or speculate about such stuff on the net? All that needs to be said is that, per public sources, it included both APFSDS of various types at various ranges, and ATGMs as well.

Ah, so suddenly Arjun engine don't need ventilation?

What does ERA have to do with ventilation?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Rubbish. The 75 kmph refers to what trained drivers from the Army at CVRDE have achieved. Heck, even the Autocar India team driving the Arjun for the first time took it to 70 Kmph.

Arjun Autocar Report

We all know what the in exaustable troll is up to. Forget it! It does not need a reply because even when facts are shown it looks the other way and says the same thing, how do you win that? It is very depressed that it does not look KOOOL like a Lamborgine or its cartoon network tanks!

Dont feed the nutter, dont feed the nutter.

 

[Damian]

Yeah, sure but what about top speed on the UK Army sites?

They don't wan't tell, but You should understand them, most of CR2's will be cut to scrap.

Only 135 from whole fleet will remain in service.

These are hard times for UK Army tank corps.

Oh come on..

But it is a fact, T-64 weight was 37-38 tons, and it was superiory protected to the 58 tons heavy tanks of these times back then.

Why exactly, again should I know this sort of info or speculate about such stuff on the net? All that needs to be said is that, per public sources, it included both APFSDS of various types at various ranges, and ATGMs as well.

Once again, what types of ammunition, give me designation names, it is so hard? Ammunition designation names are not classified.

What does ERA have to do with ventilation?

You said that Army wan't all around cover of ERA right? So how they will solve problem with ERA covering engine vents? Simple question simple answer.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

At least in the cross country speed they were more fair.

Fair because it was less? Is that your criterion for, right? lmao.

They have copy pasted from the internet along with their data on Arjun. They dont gain anything in that 3kmph speed, it may even take more time to reach the 70kmph than the Europen tanks but it sure as hell has beaten the T-90.

Link don't work.

And still, for me it looks like EMES-15, same crosshair, similiar resolution.

You mean you have x-ray vision? How did you see the components inside, let me guess you just saw the turret and to a guess! LMAO!! FAIL.

The link works fine, it is an BEL made sight and it has nothing to do with German tanks, we shared the same designer who gave both Germany and India the same exterior armor sloping design, from there we evolved separately over the years. The chassis, suspension,gun,sights,tracks everything is diffrent. The engine was from germany and now it is been built here, the new MK2 version will have an home designed engine.

http://www.bel-india.com/index.aspx?q=&sectionid=315