Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 14 5.1%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 46 16.8%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 159 58.0%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 55 20.1%

  • Total voters
    274

Flying Dagger

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
1,482
Likes
3,184
Country flag
This is just one of the options. The UK recently unveiled a tank upgrade. No final decision has been made yet. However, it is clear that British tanks and infantry fighting vehicles need to be replaced.
UK + Europe should field same kind of light and heavy tanks instead. Sweden has got light tank and in heavy either one of Challenger , Leclerc ( France) Leopard (Germany) these two kind are good enough. If they develop these two platforms and mass produce them for all the forces it will keep the cost down and help them to maintain a big tank fleet.

Modern tanks are getting expensive just like fighter jets so it's better to use a common fighting vehicle.
 

Akim

Professional
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
6,204
Likes
2,831
Country flag
UK + Europe should field same kind of light and heavy tanks instead. Sweden has got light tank and in heavy either one of Challenger , Leclerc ( France) Leopard (Germany) these two kind are good enough. If they develop these two platforms and mass produce them for all the forces it will keep the cost down and help them to maintain a big tank fleet.

Modern tanks are getting expensive just like fighter jets so it's better to use a common fighting vehicle.
Let this be decided by military experts in their countries. You are trying to tie the tactics of the 70-80s to modern military equipment.
Indeed, the battlefield has become open. Dozens of drones swarm above him.
Means of destruction of armored vehicles prevail over its protection. And one of the ways out, it was decided to change the tactics of the battle.
 

Flying Dagger

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
1,482
Likes
3,184
Country flag
Let this be decided by military experts in their countries. You are trying to tie the tactics of the 70-80s to modern military equipment.
Indeed, the battlefield has become open. Dozens of drones swarm above him.
Means of destruction of armored vehicles prevail over its protection. And one of the ways out, it was decided to change the tactics of the battle.
Tactics are short term what I am suggesting is strategy to keep cost down and still able to field a large NATO backed Tank fleet.

And they are already following it in big strategic purchases like fighter jets etc. So whether it is from 80s or 5000 yrs old doesn't really matter.

Regarding who will decide.. well No one from this forum is actually going to decide anything for military of any nation we just discuss and suggest I think we do have that freedom to do. Tc
 

Akim

Professional
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
6,204
Likes
2,831
Country flag
Tactics are short term what I am suggesting is strategy to keep cost down and still able to field a large NATO backed Tank fleet.

And they are already following it in big strategic purchases like fighter jets etc. So whether it is from 80s or 5000 yrs old doesn't really matter.

Regarding who will decide.. well No one from this forum is actually going to decide anything for military of any nation we just discuss and suggest I think we do have that freedom to do. Tc
Bad example.
European countries use several types of fighters (Eurofighter, Gripen, Rafale, etc.). Each of them has different battle tactics.
It's the same with tanks too. It is impossible to reduce everything to a common denominator.
This is clearly seen in the "Strong Europe Tank Challenge" competition, when different types of tanks perform the same exercise.
 

Flying Dagger

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
1,482
Likes
3,184
Country flag
Bad example.
European countries use several types of fighters (Eurofighter, Gripen, Rafale, etc.). Each of them has different battle tactics.
It's the same with tanks too. It is impossible to reduce everything to a common denominator.
This is clearly seen in the "Strong Europe Tank Challenge" competition, when different types of tanks perform the same exercise.
Rafale and Typhoon went separate ways due to the diff between France and Other nations who came together for a common platform.

And they share lots of commonality in terms of weapons etc.

The other Gripen is a light fighter jet from Saab.
 

WolfPack86

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
8,063
Likes
11,018
Country flag
These are Type-59 MBTs. And we keep overhauling them time to time. From Eastern front perspective, these tanks are obsolete. However, for Western front, these tanks are credible assets. Therefore, we will continue to see utility of T59/69 series of tanks in far future.
 

WolfPack86

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
8,063
Likes
11,018
Country flag
The deliveries will complete by 2024. The payment of ~1$ Billion is for initial batches as order may expand further. #HIT has already been upgraded to support and even modify #VT4 tank fleet.
 

WolfPack86

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
8,063
Likes
11,018
Country flag
Russia has received the first application for the Sprut-SDM1 light amphibious tank, which has recently been submitted for state testing. One of the countries of the Middle East became its potential customer.
 

Flying Dagger

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
1,482
Likes
3,184
Country flag
Russia has received the first application for the Sprut-SDM1 light amphibious tank, which has recently been submitted for state testing. One of the countries of the Middle East became its potential customer.
Prachar prasar chal rha hain.

Though I admit they really did right by going for 125mm gun and ability to fire missiles etc does make sure in terms of fire power its no slouch.

We can make some automated machine like that for future and a few with lesser fire power against terrorist attacks will be handy with more protection.
 

[email protected]

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
1,658
Likes
2,057
Country flag
South Korea has offered Poland a version of their MBT called K-2PL, with offer of TOT. This can be of interest to us, since they are also offering K-2 to India under FRCV program (though no one knows its current status or future). Also the armour layout is interesting considering our own GNMBT and Arjun mk2 program.










 

Flying Dagger

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
1,482
Likes
3,184
Country flag
The deliveries will complete by 2024. The payment of ~1$ Billion is for initial batches as order may expand further. #HIT has already been upgraded to support and even modify #VT4 tank fleet.
It include APS too in just around 3.3 mn dollars with a 1300 hp engine.

While we are still not able to upgrade our T 72 and T 90 fleets and T 55/Vijayanta are rusting down.
 

Haldilal

लड़ते लड़ते जीना है, लड़ते लड़ते मरना है
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2020
Messages
2,787
Likes
8,552
Country flag
It include APS too in just around 3.3 mn dollars with a 1300 hp engine.

While we are still not able to upgrade our T 72 and T 90 fleets and T 55/Vijayanta are rusting down.
And it comes with extra armour than the thai and Nigerian models.
 

Swiftfarts

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Messages
312
Likes
333
Country flag
Relikt ERA on upgraded T 80BVM.

EVEgPekUcAYYWoy.jpeg


These Relikt ERA have additional module behind there main ERA.

EVEgNrVVAAEAVkS.jpeg

EVEgPeRWsAAC2Na.jpeg


These additional module are not present on standard Relikt ERA.

@[email protected] see when you say that russians exaggerate effectiveness of there ERA , you are right and wrong at the same time. What they sell to others and what they actually use is quite different. Relikt which are for export are not the same used by Russians.
 

[email protected]

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
1,658
Likes
2,057
Country flag
Relikt ERA on upgraded T 80BVM.

View attachment 60941

These Relikt ERA have additional module behind there main ERA.

View attachment 60943
View attachment 60942

These additional module are not present on standard Relikt ERA.

@[email protected] see when you say that russians exaggerate effectiveness of there ERA , you are right and wrong at the same time. What they sell to others and what they actually use is quite different. Relikt which are for export are not the same used by Russians.
They can have any arrangement of the reactive elements and metal plates in their ERA. That depends on the user requirement. IF IA wants 10 layer ERA, with such arrangement. DRDO can come up with it. We already have the reactive elements (line charges) as well as HHS to form the metal layer. this can easily be accomplished if requirement arises. But fact is the effectiveness of this Relikit ERA is not documented, no test results exists, no International customer has installed this after field testing, unlike Kontack 5. The only thing in brochure is supposed claims that it is twice as effective as Kontack 5.
 
Last edited:

Swiftfarts

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Messages
312
Likes
333
Country flag
They can have any arrangement of the reactive elements and metal plates in their ERA. That depends on the user requirement. IF IA wants 10 layer ERA, with such arrangement. DRDO can come up with it. We already have the reactive elements (line charges) as well as HHS to form the metal layer. this can easily be accomplished if requirement arises.
Then DRDO should come up with it , has anyone stop DRDO? answer is no. The best they have come up with is copy of kontakt 5, which probably is not that effective as it is claimed or it's just a russian tech transfer under the table , since MOD has already signed TOT agreement for ERA with Russians. 👇
.The deal stipulates that Russian original equipment manufacturer UralVagonZavod and arms export agency Rosoboronexport will be paid $1.2 billion for technology transfer, while India’s state-owned Ordnance Factory Board will be paid $1.92 billion for local production of 464 T-90S tanks, according to an Indian Ministry of Defence official.
Here what technology has been transferred.
.A senior OFB executive said complete localization of T-90S tanks in India is impossible, as a large number of parts must continue to be imported. The parts that will be locally produced include panoramic night sights, thermal imaging fire-control systems and explosive reactive armor, he added. However, the engines and transmission system that makes up 45 percent of the cost of a T-90S tank will come from Russia.
as for Relikt. Well if it is so ineffective why Americans are going for M829A4 ? they could have done fine with the kontakt 5 busting M829A3 round :lol:. 4S24 explosive tile which is in use in Relikt was developed in early 2000. Americans are convinced that they need a new round to deal with it.
I don't know why you are not convinced.
 

Swiftfarts

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Messages
312
Likes
333
Country flag
M829A4 projectile use break away tip which propels further to detonate ERA to clear the way for main projectile to hit. It also help in fooling hard kill APS.
zK0hdsd.png


Now why would you do that if you are convince enemy ERA is not that effective in first place :lol:.

To bad though , malachit on armata use pre warning trigger mechanism to arm the explosive before projectile hit. It won't be fooled period, neither its hard kill APS.
 

Swiftfarts

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Messages
312
Likes
333
Country flag
Rheinmetall 130mm smoothbore for Leo upgrade.
why not put something like this on Arjun instead of s***y rifled gun.
 

Swiftfarts

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Messages
312
Likes
333
Country flag
Design specs, engineering, weapons and other innovations envisioned for the GCV are now being analyzed for the new tank. In particular, the new tank may use an emerging 30mm cannon weapon planned for the GCV – the ATK-built XM813. XM813 is computer-controlled and electronically driven weapon can fire up to 200 rounds per minute, uses a dual-recoil firing system and a semi-closed bolt firing mode. The new tank will emerge after the Army first fields its M1A2 SEP v4 upgraded Abrams tank in the 2020s

The Army’s MCS program developed and test-fired a super lightweight 120mm cannon, called the XM360, able to fire existing and emerging next-generation tank rounds. The lightweight weapon being developed for the MCS was two-tons, roughly one-half the weight of the existing Abrams 120mm cannon. The XM360 used electrothermal chemical technology.

xm360-1-730x430 (1).png


xm360b.jpg


ETCgun5 (1).png


ETCguns3.png


ETCguns2.png


ETCguns.png


Electrothermal-chemical (ETC) technology is an attempt to increase accuracy and muzzle energy of future tank, artillery, and close-in weapon system guns by improving the predictability and rate of expansion of propellants inside the barrel.

Several countries have already determined that ETC technology is viable for the future and have funded indigenous projects considerably. These include the United States, Germany and the United Kingdom, amongst others. The United States’ XM360 (cancelled in 2009) was reportedly based on the XM291 and may include ETC technology, or portions of ETC technology. Tests of this gun have been performed using “precision ignition” technology, which may refer to ETC ignition.

The XM-291 is the best existing example of a working electrothermal-chemical gun. It was an alternate technology to the heavier caliber 140 mm gun by using the dual-caliber approach. It uses a breech that is large enough to accept 140 mm ammunition and be mounted with both a 120 mm barrel and a 135 mm or 140 mm barrel. The XM-291 also mounts a larger gun tube and a larger ignition chamber than the existing M256 L/44 main gun.

Through the application of electrothermal-chemical technology the XM-291 has been able to achieve muzzle energy outputs that equate that to a low-level 140 mm gun, while achieving muzzle velocities greater than those of the larger 140 mm gun. Although the XM-291 does not mean that ETC technology is viable it does offer an example that it is possible.

ETCgun4.png


ETC requires much less energy input from outside sources, like a battery, than a railgun or a coilgun would. Tests have shown that energy output by the propellant is higher than energy input from outside sources on ETC guns. In comparison, a railgun currently cannot achieve a higher muzzle velocity than the amount of energy input. Even at 50% efficiency a rail gun launching a projectile with a kinetic energy of 20 MJ would require an energy input into the rails of 40 MJ, and 50% efficiency has not yet been achieved. To put this into perspective, a rail gun launching at 9 MJ of energy would need roughly 32 MJ worth of energy from capacitors. Current advances in energy storage allow for energy densities as high as 2.5 MJ/dm³, which means that a battery delivering 32 MJ of energy would require a volume of 12.8 dm³ per shot; this is not a viable volume for use in a modern main battle tank, especially one designed to be lighter than existing models. There has even been discussion about eliminating the necessity for an outside electrical source in ETC ignition by initiating the plasma cartridge through a small explosive force.


ETCgun4.png


ETC technology is not only applicable to solid propellants. To increase muzzle velocity even further electrothermal-chemical ignition can work with liquid propellants, although this would require further research into plasma ignition.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/03/plans-for-new-us-super-tank-with.html?amp

I've heard that rifled ones are more accurate and stable.
in past yes not anymore and smoothbore advantage outweighs rifled gun anyday.
 

Swiftfarts

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Messages
312
Likes
333
Country flag
Ground equipment operates on the battlefield, as saturated as possible with all types of weapons. This significantly distinguishes it from fighting on the water, under water and in the air. The main difference is that on the ground, military equipment can work with bullets, shells, missiles and mines of a huge range of calibers: from 5,45 mm to 203 mm. At the same time, the number of types of ammunition with which aircraft, ships and submarines can be attacked is less by an order of magnitude. And the distance from which this or that is applied on planes, ships and submarines weapon, significantly more, which gives them time to make a decision and respond.


Armored protection



During its existence, armor protection has continuously evolved: cast armor, rolled armor, heterogeneous steel armor from welded sheets of different hardness.


In parallel, the means of destruction developed (often at a faster pace). A serious challenge for the creators of armored protection was the appearance of cumulative warheads. A distinctive feature of the cumulative warheads is that they can be installed in fairly compact and inexpensive weapons that can be placed on all types of carriers, starting with the ordinary infantryman.

iu.jpg

The RPG hand-held anti-tank grenade launcher and its analogues have become one of the most terrible threats to armored vehicles, especially in mountainous and wooded areas or in battles in settlements



A definite breakthrough can be considered the appearance of composite armor, including, in addition to armor steels, fillers from various non-metallic materials: reinforced fabrics, fiberglass, porcelain, armored ceramics.

1593090426_02-bronya.jpg

Section of the tower tank T-64A with ceramic balls (left) and the towers of the T-80UD tanks in versions with molded cellular blocks filled with polymer (in the center) and a ceramic-metal bag (right)



Dynamic protection

Another breakthrough can be considered the emergence of dynamic defense (DZ)
, the principle of which is based on the destruction of the attacking ammunition or the cumulative stream due to the detonation of a small explosive charge, the initiation of which is carried out by the action of the attacking ammunition. Dynamic defense has become widespread on domestic combat vehicles.


The appearance of DZ forced the developers of anti-tank weapons to increase the diameter of the cumulative funnel, to equip the products with one or two leading cumulative precharges designed to destroy dynamic defense units.

1593090361_05-ptrk-kornet.jpg

The anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) of the Kornet anti-tank missile system (ATGM) is equipped with a tandem cumulative charge



If the first samples of dynamic protection could only withstand cumulative charges, then the latest samples, such as the Dynamic Relikt installed on the main battle tanks (MBT) of the T-90 series, or the Dynamic Malachite protection installed on armored vehicles of the Armata platform ", Are able to protect armored vehicles from armor-piercing feathered subcaliber shells (BOPS), tandem cumulative charges, and the Malachite defense missile can withstand ammunition like" shock core ".


Ammunition of the type "shock core" is mainly designed to destroy armored vehicles in the upper projection.

Armata_Bild_3.jpg

DZ "Malachite" of the T-14 Armata tank must withstand almost all types of modern anti-tank weapons



Information about DM "Malachite" is not enough. There are versions that its design can be based on relatively conservative or advanced technical solutions. In the first case, the design of the DZ "Malachite" is based on improved solutions implemented in the DZ "Relic": sequential firing towards the attacking ammunition of the armored cover of the DZ module and the damper plate. This allows you to break the cumulative stream, bend or break the BOPS.


In the second version, the Malakhit DZ can be implemented as part of the Afganit active defense complex (KAZ), also installed on machines of the Armata family. In this case, the DZ becomes “intellectual armor”: the DZ block is triggered well in advance, even before the attacking ammunition is hit, according to the radar station (radar) of the Afganit complex.


It is also possible to implement the DM “Malachite” by the type of electrodynamic protection, a patent for which is available at the NII Steel. In this case, the detection of an approaching projectile or missile is carried out by built-in inductors by changing the magnetic field strength from the metal contained in the structure of the attacking ammunition. The advantage of this solution is the independence of the DZ operation from the KAZ Afganit radar, which can be damaged by enemy fire, as well as the possibility of destroying the attacking ammunition at a distance of about 200-400 mm from the hull, even before they hit the protected object.


Separately, one can mention such a type of dynamic defense as the Ukrainian DZ “Knife” or its improved version of the DZ “Duplet”. At the heart of the Knife DZ are elongated cumulative charges located in rows in the case, perpendicular to the approach direction of the attacking ammunition. The cumulative elements of the Knife DZ are interconnected by additional charges in such a way that the operation of one of the elongated cumulative charges in the block due to the attack of ammunition causes the detonation of the remaining elongated cumulative charges in the block. Elongated charges fire sequentially, destroying and deflecting the attacking ammunition

1593090418_08-dz-nog.jpg


DZ module with elongated cumulative charges and an image of the principle of operation of the DZ type “Knife”​

1593090451_09-dz-duplet.jpg

1593146416_nozh-i-duplet.jpg


In DZ “Duplet”, dynamic defense modules are located in several layers, which can significantly increase the likelihood of destruction of the attacking ammunition.


Like so much more, история dynamic protection, based on the principle of elongated cumulative charges, begins in the USSR. However, after the collapse of the country, Russian and Ukrainian developers chose different development paths. Which solution will be more effective, time will tell. Meanwhile, it is possible that the best option would be to use combined solutions in which various types of dynamic protection would complement each other.

"Electric armor"

For promising models of armored vehicles, the creation of so-called electric armor is considered. One of the options is to throw the protective plate towards the attacking ammunition, as it can be supposed to be realized in the Malakhit DZ, only throwing should not be carried out by blowing up a small explosive charge, but due to the electrothermal effect on the throwing plate due to the evaporation of the polyethylene block powerful electric discharge, or the implementation of the expansion of protective plates using electromagnetic interaction.

1593090429_10-em-bronya (1).jpg

The principle of operation of electromagnetic armor.

Also considered is the option of the direct impact of a high voltage discharge, with an energy of the order of 10-20 kJ, on the cumulative jet or core of the BFPS, which should lead to their destruction.

A serious advantage of “electric armor” is the minimal secondary impact on the carrier, due to which such protection can be applied on light armored vehicles, as well as minimal impact on related objects, for example, infantry accompanying armored vehicles. The main problem of implementing this or that type of “electric armor” is the need to install a powerful source of electricity on armored vehicles, which is extremely difficult to implement on vehicles with a traditional power plant, but it is quite possible to promising electric propulsion platforms.


Armor Level


Recently, the question has been periodically raised of the allowable reduction in reservation, in connection with increasing ability to camouflage armored vehicles, as well as the introduction of highly effective promising KAZ. For example, for the XM1202 tank, developed as part of the FCS program, it was required to provide full protection against 30-mm and 45-mm cannon fire in the 60-degree sector from the front and circular protection against small arms fire up to 14,5 mm caliber, as well as fragments of 152/155 mm artillery shells. In fact, in terms of booking it is no longer a tank, but rather an armored personnel carrier.

Reducing the reservation to the level of the proposed tank XM1202, developed under the FCS program, is unacceptable. In this niche, there may be other equipment - light tanks of the domestic type 2C25 "Octopus-SD" or some kind of machine on the Kurganets platform, with enhanced weapons, but not the main tank.
1593090463_11-kurganec-57-mm (1).jpg

BMP "Kurganets" may well become the basis of a light tank



If the tank holds only a caliber of up to 14,5 mm, then it turns out that it can be hit on board like existing ammunition caliber 23-35 mm, ammunition of increased power caliber 45-57 mm, which is now actively moving armored vehicles, and promising ammunition for small arms, which are now being developed even for promising sniper rifles. It is doubtful that any KAZ will be able to intercept a line of half-a-dozen shells with a caliber of 30 mm.


In the event of hostilities in an urban environment, a light tank is also doomed. Suppose KAZ can intercept 3-4 grenades fired from an RPG, but it cannot repel a dozen shots, and the newest tank will be destroyed by weapons more than half a century ago. Moreover, there are frequent cases when tanks of even an outdated model received a dozen hits from RPGs, and this did not lead to their destruction.


In the case of reducing the reservation of MBT, developers of anti-tank weapons will also be able to reduce their ammunition, which will lead to an increase in their portable / transportable ammunition. By analogy with the Pantsir anti-aircraft missile and cannon system (ZRPK) and the Gvozd small-sized anti-aircraft guided missiles (SAM) designed for it, deployed in four units instead of one standard missile, will there be anti-missile or RPGs with three or four simultaneously launched ammunition capable of overloading any KAZ? Actually, what can I say if the ATGM of reduced dimensions has already been created, well, or practically created. This is a complex of guided weapons “Bulat”, which is present as part of the updated module “Age”. It is easy to notice the difference in dimensions between the ATGM of the Kornet complex and the ATGM of the Bulat complex, which makes it possible to place at least twice the ammunition load of such ATGMs as part of the weapons module.


​
1593090463_12-zur-gvozd.jpg
Promising SAM “Nail” for ZRPK “Shell”. According to the same principle, promising ATGMs and RPGs can be created in case of refusal of heavy armor on MBT.

In addition, thin armor will not allow placing effective dynamic protection, it will simply break the side or the roof when triggered, and talking about "electric armor" is still premature.


We can conclude that armor for tanks and other heavy armored vehicles is needed. But what level of reservation can be considered sufficient?


Obviously, the main limitation here will remain the overall dimensions of the armored vehicles: the dimensions and weight permissible during transportation, which allow the transportation of armored vehicles by truck tractors, rail and aviationwhich should remain plus or minus at the level of existing machines. Accordingly, we can expect to maintain the current level of booking and, as a result, the security of promising armored vehicles. On the one hand, means of attack will develop, on the other hand, materials, layout schemes of armor will be improved, and promising solutions will be introduced.


Without the appearance of breakthrough solutions, without taking into account the introduction of KAZ, the balance of the projectile / armor is expected to remain approximately at the current level. For some time, the means of attack will prevail, for some time the means of defense. The question remains of the distribution of armor, which we can place on the body of armored vehicles.

https://en.topwar.ru/172506-zaschita-nazemnoj-boevoj-tehniki-broni-mnogo-ne-byvaet.html
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top